IS JOSEPH CAMPBELL AN ANTI-SEMITE?

[seemslikeadream]

my list from page 11...and I ahven't gotten around to adding more but I will....no doubt I will

here's just a small list I have posted so far and I will continue to post more names of people who loved Joseph Campbell and certainly would not be caught dead hanging out with an anti-semite...So keep posting your hate and I'll keep posting supporters of Joseph Campbell.

Bill Moyers
Joseph Campbell Foundation
Tori Amos
Steven Spielberg
Robert Baird
David Yamada
Derek Beres
Rick Tarnas
Marien Hansen
Paul Horn
David Darling
Mickey Lemle
Terry Lupton
Gerald McDermott
Suzie Self
Michael Murphy
Chungliang Al Huang
Sam Keen
Lynne Kaufman
Michael Christie
David Darling
John Cleese
Phil Cousineau
Stanislav Grof MD PhD
Michael Murphy
Mickey Lemle
Terry Lupton
Angelis Arrien
Stephen Atzenstat PhD
Charlie Bethel
Rebeccca Armstrong
David Steindl Rast
Richard Tarna PhD
Robert Walter
Gina Otto
Manny Otto
Bruce Baumwoll
Opus Archives & Research Center
Carl Cherry Center for the Arts
Joan Konner Graduate School of Journalism Columbia University
Robert Walter
Patrick Takaya Solomon
James P. Hewitt
Robert_Walte
David Kudler
Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis
Steven Spielberg,
George Lucas
Pat Riley
Grateful Dead
Pacifica Graduate Institute
Jean Erdman Campbell,
Alfred van der Marck
Roberta H. Markman California State University
Peter T. Markman Fullerton College

[seemslikeadream]

slad wrote:

name all those people you are talking about I did up thread I got 4 names.....please do name names.....just cause you say all those people doesn't make it so

Hello? slad you have everyone listed except Thomas Mann and the seminar attendee (you know the incident where Campbell told her "that's yoru problem" when she brought up the holocaust in reaction to his law of the jungle diatribe. How many people do you need? I'm really curious is 7 the magic number? 8? 9? Are you waiting for George Lucas's deathbed confession?

Mr. Brendan Gill
Arnold Krupat
Daniel Kaiser
Ms. Feldman
Thomas Mann
Seminar attendee (name is somewhere in thread (you can go dig for it))

wow your up to 5 and one unknown good for you ......anybody under oath? That's your proof 5 people out of a life time of work of an 85 year old man?? I pissed off that many people just today

[ShinShinKid]

I wasn't trying to say that. I understand many people make the most of what they've been given; some more than others.
It was only a reference to Campbell, the lecturer and writer, and Campbell the journalist (sic). Just trying to figure some stuff out for myself, wrt Campbell's work. I am not judging your friend, nor anybody else.

[compared2what?]

I wonder if you know anything about college politics?

Oh trust me...I know...do I know...

I do too. I was kind of wondering whether there was going to be a unnamed-colleagues-say-it-was-common-knowledge/named-administrators-say-we-don't-know-how-could-we fundraising-related portion of the proceedings.

I guess that's really just what I was thinking already, plus color, not new information.

Honestly, I'm with DrVolin. It seems like the very definition of not shocking to me, less because of him than because of academe. As was, anyway. I'm out of touch.

Also, if there was that much of a brouhaha over endowing...I don't know, the Joseph Campbell Chair in Whatever-ian Studies? But, you know -- that, back in 1990, I feel confident that his wife and all his surviving near-and-dear came to terms with it long, long ago and are no longer in danger of being devastated to learn of it. If indeed, they ever were, since handling and defusing minor fall-out from it was probably a semi-permanent ongoing aspect of life for them anyway, though we-don't-know-how-could-we.

It's definitely not going to be a big problem for anybody now, though. Manifestly (as with the rest of the all-stars), his reputation has already survived it. The future is foreseeably serene and secure. What's out is out. No harm done. No longer a threat.

That should leave us free to express our own independent thoughts on the matter as they occur, I believe.

[brekin]

slad wrote:

here's just a small list I have posted so far and I will continue to post more names of people who loved Joseph Campbell and certainly would not be caught dead hanging out with an anti-semite...So keep posting your hate and I'll keep posting supporters of Joseph Campbell.

That list is invalid except for Bill Moyers because none of them have spoken to whether Campbell was a anti-semite or not. And for all we know they couldn't or wouldn't have known either way. A list of Joseph Campbell's famous fans doesn't really do anything to help the argument and takes up space. I mean having a list of Phil Spector's famous fans doesn't tell us whether or not he killed that poor woman, does it?

slad wrote:

my list from page 11...and I ahven't gotten around to adding more but I will....no doubt I will

Again a waster of everyone's time, especially yours. Unless you can find similar Bill Moyers type defenses of Campbell why bother tunneling for famous people who like Joseph Campbell? And probably only knew him remotely if at all.

**However didn't someone say Tim Robbins attended his class for a semester? He may be the golden goose in all this. Someone, get Tim Robbins on the phone asap!

[compared2what?]

slad wrote:

name all those people you are talking about I did up thread I got 4 names.....please do name names.....just cause you say all those people doesn't make it so

Hello? slad you have everyone listed except Thomas Mann and the seminar attendee (you know the incident where Campbell told her "that's yoru problem" when she brought up the holocaust in reaction to his law of the jungle diatribe. How many people do you need? I'm really curious is 7 the magic number? 8? 9? Are you waiting for George Lucas's deathbed confession?

Mr. Brendan Gill
Arnold Krupat
Daniel Kaiser
Ms. Feldman
Thomas Mann
Seminar attendee (name is somewhere in thread (you can go dig for it))

wow your up to 5 and one unknown good for you ......anybody under oath? That's your proof 5 people out of a life time of work of an 85 year old man?? I pissed off that many people just today

The power and the money favor silence, since virtually anyone in a position to know would be dependent on them for continued welfare, employment, recommendations, etc. I mean, silence is much more profitable, from the perspective of those who call the shots. He's an industry.

(Like Bill Moyers is going to fling himself off that cliff? Come on.)

[justdrew]

slad wrote:

Then maybe you know people lie

Sure, but why would all these different people; students, colleagues, seminar attendees, Jewish and non-Jewish, academic and non-academic bring such accounts forward? I mean what would they gain? Other than the acrimony of all the true believers of Campbell's very popular works? I just don't see how it could help them in anyway, probably just bringing unwanted attention and since this is mostly all old news, the late 80's-mid 90's, we can see how popular figures like Campbell are almost teflon to such accusations anyways. Are they all just meanies then, slad?

OK, was Martin Luther an Anti-Catholic? and was there anything evil about it? or was it a difference of opinion?

[compared2what?]

Summing up:

If the concern is that discussing this damages his reputation -- That's already demonstrably not an issue.

If the concern is that his surviving near-and-dear will be incapacitated by the pain it causes them to know such things are said -- That's closing the barn door after the horse has bolted.

If the concern is that posters to this thread are not valuing his achievements as highly as they merit -- first of all, most of them are; and second of all, they're entitled to their opinions.

If the concern is that the charges aren't true -- It's been duly noted that the evidence for them comes from a small number of unrelated people attesting to reciprocally reinforcing and consistent examples of his views, plus a little documentary support in the way of affiliations, etc. But that's usually enough to clear the bar for "credible case." So people are entitled to be persuaded by it or not.

If the concern is just that it's upsetting to see people survive being accused of harboring anti-Semitic sentiments with reputation intact in some kind of existential way -- Not sure I really get that one. Seems too normal not to be okay with to me.

[brekin]

slad wrote:

Then maybe you know people lie

brekin wrote:
Sure, but why would all these different people; students, colleagues, seminar attendees, Jewish and non-Jewish, academic and non-academic bring such accounts forward? I mean what would they gain? Other than the acrimony of all the true believers of Campbell's very popular works? I just don't see how it could help them in anyway, probably just bringing unwanted attention and since this is mostly all old news, the late 80's-mid 90's, we can see how popular figures like Campbell are almost teflon to such accusations anyways. Are they all just meanies then, slad?

justdrew wrote:

OK, was Martin Luther an Anti-Catholic? and was there anything evil about it? or was it a difference of opinion?

Well, if Campbell was anti-Judaism as a belief system that would be one thing. I mean if he felt all literal dogmata of organized religion were dead ends then one could just make the excuse that he wasn't singling out Judaism. But being anti-semitic is against Jewish people as a ethnicity and doesn't have to be solely about belief. I mean anti-semites throughout history have shown they don't care whether Jews have renounced their faith, gone atheist, blended in with the gentiles dress, name, observances, etc In fact many anti-semites start to persecute Jews when they start to assimilate because they feel like they are being threatened from an inside fifth column.

The Martin Luther example is problematic from a number of standpoints (not the least of which he was a virulent anti-Semite of colossal proportions) but putting that aside one could say a theoretical Luther could be against Catholicism, but not Catholics, in fact would seek to bring them into his reformist fold. I don't see Campbell being anti-Judaism and pro-Jew, I mean why else would he want them kept out of his athletic club for years? Not because they would read the Torah in the locker room but because he didn't like them as a people.

[compared2what?]

OK, was Martin Luther an Anti-Catholic? and was there anything evil about it? or was it a difference of opinion?

What?

I mean....No implications. But:

What?

(For the record: Could arguably be so called but it's not the best way of putting it; no; not merely, but sure.)

[compared2what?]

The Martin Luther example is problematic from a number of standpoints

I'll say.

[compared2what?]

Sorry.

But WHAT?

Honey, can you really not see the difference?

It's okay if the answer is yes. I'm just asking. Getting my bearings, basically. Because I don't know how to respond. But it's fine.

ON EDIT: Sorry again. I shouldn't be that surprised, but for some reason I was. I apologize. I'm taking five. Or infinity. No big deal, though.

Very sincere apologies.

[justdrew]

brekin's first reply indicates he understood what I was trying to get at. (sorry to have freaked you out c2w, honesty not sure what's so freakable about the question)

(didn't know M.L. was anti-Semitic, but I guess it's not particularly surprising given the time and place and dogma of the times.)

There were a LOT of "restricted" clubs back then, brekin, what makes you think Campbell was in favor of maintaining that? (sorry if I missed that detail already posted)

I'm not certain, but I would guess that within the community (and more so without) the distinction between anti-judasim and anti-semitism is a subtle one easily lost on 18-21 year old activist students.

I guess it does look like he may have had some inbred/culturally conditioned anti-semetic content (which was sadly the default for a lot of people back then), and philosophically ALSO had a negative opinion on the religion.

but is it acceptable or not to have a negative view of a religion's cultural/social impact?

fyi - embarrassing personal disclosure: back years ago when I was freshly hot and heavy into gnosticism (which has not yet been named in this tread) I had picked up some fairly negative views on historical Judaism (the religion NOT the race), but I've learned a lot more since and no longer feel that way.


at least we can say this with certainty, Joseph Campbell was not an Antimacassar.

[brekin]

justdrew wrote:

There were a LOT of "restricted" clubs back then, brekin, what makes you think Campbell was in favor of maintaining that? (sorry if I missed that detail already posted)

A few pages back:

At one faculty function, in 1969 or '70, I found myself drinking with Campbell and another, older, equally right-wing teacher. At some point in the evening, Campbell, responding to a remark I can't recall, said something to the effect that he could always spot a Jew. I, a Jew, said, ''Oh?'' Whereupon Campbell went into a description of how the New York Athletic Club had ingeniously managed for years to keep Jews out. He went on and on, telling his story in the most charming and amiable fashion, without any self-consciousness about the views he was expressing and, indeed, without any overt animus - for all that he obviously relished the notion of keeping Jews out of anywhere any time, forever. As soon as I could, I said goodnight, and Campbell and I never had much to do with each other again.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=36622&p=510033&hilit=campbell+athletic+club#p510033

Also, and this is just some general establishing thoughts, (and I posted something like this last night but there was a hiccup and it didn't get posted) I believe Campbell's alleged remarks are anti-semitic using the definition others were talking about as "One who discriminates against or who is hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews." I'm not really concerned with whether Campbell wasn't favorable to Judaism or Christianity or Islam for that matter.

I am concerned, and am flabbergasted when others just dismiss Campbell's alleged antisemitism as something that makes him human, a defect of prejudice, etc Campbell was someone who lived through WWII and saw what thinking could bring in the holocaust. To hold such reported views after the war into the late 60's and onward until he died is inexcusable. And this isn't just someone's grandfather's pre-PC silliness. This guy was (and is) someone who has crafted an immense grand narrative belief system of what and how we should think. Shouldn't we be concerned what he thought about persecuted and exploited minorities?

There is the possibility that his best is just in his books, but I would be very surprised if his views didn't influence his system and there wasn't a residue in them. I mean we can't really separate his work and his views can we? He wasn't working in the field of theoretical physics but what part myths should have in our lives. An interesting question to consider then in the Campbell canon is what part should myths play with those minorities that are marginalized and persecuted?

[seemslikeadream]

and remember she's quoting Gill again...the one the mighty all powerful know it all ...but no proof Gill