David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby brekin » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:13 pm

barracuda wrote:

All you are saying here is that you don't accept his evidence. You don't believe him. You have promulgated your own belief system as superior to his: a simpler explanation is better.


Correct. If all his evidence for seeing a alien-human hybrid is he saw it down in the basement then I don't accept it in relation to everything else we currently know about the matter. If he came up and said he saw Sasquatch down in the basement I'd be of similar mind, but a little more open. If he came up and said he saw George Clooney, I'd be of similar mind, but a teeny bit more open than Sasquatch. The greater the claim, the greater the need for corroborating evidence.
Isn't this the exact same rationale given to discredit and sideline every aspect of the paranormative world encountered by people on a daily basis? More or less, isn't that sort of why we're here, because for most of us this razor strikes us as and exceedingly dull blade, and makes too shallow of a cut adequate for revealing the workings of the world?


I'm all for alternative theories, but we shouldn't accept them as fact because their elegant or persuasive. There is even a snowball's chance Icke is right, but we can't throw out the rigor because the intuition finds something exotic or desirable.

This is pretty much my whole problem here. We know for a fact that simple explanations aren't necessarily at the bottom of complex events.


But Icke's belief system is patently simple. (It's all the lizard's fault!) It's just extremely attractive (guilt free scapegoating evil nonhuman minority) and fanciful enough to plug into any complex event. To me his explanation lets off the real majority of perpetrators of what is really going on. If what he says is true, any high level person with any real reach can just say "The reptiles made me do it".

I'm done for today, I'm going to the movies.
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby Canadian_watcher » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:28 pm

I assume that brekin has either got me on ignore, thinks I'm unworthy of his time, or can't think of anything good to say in response to me, but I'll persist because I'm persistent.

brekin wrote:
Correct. If all his evidence for seeing a alien-human hybrid is he saw it down in the basement then I don't accept it in relation to everything else we currently know about the matter. If he came up and said he saw Sasquatch down in the basement I'd be of similar mind, but a little more open. .....


in relation to everything else we know about the matter. huh. Can you help me understand because I feel I'm missing something. Can you give me a sample of 'everything else we know about the matter' of alien human hybrids?

also, why is this harder for you to give credence to than Sasquatch? Last I looked there is no "accepted evidence" of Sasquatch. Maybe you are waiting for someone to make a shoddy looking move of someone in a reptile suit walking across a stream? Here..



see now there's a crap video (there are others, too!) and perhaps I could fashion you a three toed foot print impression too. Scatter some scales on the porch of my cottage. THEN we'd be talkin' right?

I'm just playing but truly, this whole business about 'everything else we know about the matter' of alien human hybrids intrigues me. Please share.

ps - I'm probably not done for the day. I've been busy and am now into relax mode. I'll likely be back. just so you all know. see ya. laterz.
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby American Dream » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:32 pm

Canadian_watcher » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:46 pm wrote:
American Dream » Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:55 pm wrote:
Canadian_watcher » Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:39 pm wrote:...AD's insistence that anyone who doesn't dismiss Icke whole cloth is a feeble minded unwitting anti-semite/racist.


This is your straw man, it has little to nothing to do with what I actually think.

Can we recreate the incident way back when that originally offended you? Maybe then it will jog a memory for one or both of us...


no, we really really can't. I so wish I hadn't brought it up. I only mentioned it in order to introduce the fact that this very thread of yours has been going on for at least two years in different forms. it's a shape-shifting hobby horse.

AND.. more importantly, to clear up the question of whether or not this is my "straw man" or not, please tell me what you meant by this post:

American Dream » Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:00 pm wrote:
slimmouse » Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:57 pm wrote:
American Dream » 07 Jul 2013 17:42 wrote:
barracuda » Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:34 pm wrote:Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Cut to the fucking chase, please.


Definitely includes that but also all of Icke's "Rothschild Zionism" theory, all of Gilad Atzmon's work, etc.


Well, this certainly appears to be heading in its usually warped way.

It would appear that the implications from all of this are clear. Icke is a raging dangerous racist, along with all of his followers.

In which case AD, if that implication is aimed at me, as one of the "they", then I say in all truth to you, go fuck yourself.

Youre lying about me, which I dont mind as much as the fact that I believe you are lying to yourself.


Not saying you want to propagate racism but unfortunately you do endorse it, no matter how good your intentions...


I am saying that slimmouse, through advocating Rothschild Zionism theory has, in my view, perpetuated misguided and oppressive thinking, though I highly doubt this is what he intended...
"If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything."
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby American Dream » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:35 pm

Searcher08 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:48 pm wrote:I am not going to HAVE to do anything, AD

I made a request of you, to ask the people mentioned how they felt ie their subjective experience as a result of your communication with them. I asked you for empathy and to be listened to.

You refused.


First I'd like to see some concrete examples of what you've alleged of me. Then we can move on from there.


ON EDIT: That's fair, right? You've complained to the mods about what you consider to be exceptionally bad behavior and it's quite reasonable to ask you to be specific by citing representative examples that illustrate your complaint.

If that's not reasonable to you, why not?


.
Last edited by American Dream on Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby Canadian_watcher » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:40 pm

oh darn it, there's more.
brekin wrote:
But Icke's belief system is patently simple. (It's all the lizard's fault!) It's just extremely attractive (guilt free scapegoating evil nonhuman minority) ....


Hold up!
I distinctly remember from the OP video (and just went and checked) - one of the MAIN methods of Madman Icke is that he induces guilt. I believe the exact graphic from the video is:

"What we blame other people for, we are actually creating" (quote David Icke)
text underneath:
"Make the person feel that if there are ever any problems it is always their fault. Induce feelings of shame or guilt."

But hey, maybe that's just how he hypnotizes people. Maybe the switcheroo from it's all your fault to the reptiles are responsible for everything comes AFTER he's made everyone feel so guilty and ashamed and also loyal to him for his genius salvation. It's possible.
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby compared2what? » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:43 pm

Sounder » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:26 pm wrote:I wonder if somebody might ask AD for me if he considers Zionism to be a racist ideology?


Astonishingly impossible question to answer "Yes," considering that the movement based on it led directly to a territorially based genocide, the justification for which depends almost entirely on racism.

But be that as it may. It's not a racist ideology. It's a nationalist ideology that was realized as a neo-imperialist movement by people who took the cultural superiority/supremacy of the (implicitly European-white-normative) west for granted and probably still do. But not more or less so than the non-Zionist west, then or now, ideologically speaking.

Unless you mean Christian Zionism. But that's not really a racist ideology either. It's just religious rather than nationalist.

In any event. Just about all Zionist -- and later, Israeli -- actions against the Palestinians (meaning: not only slaughtering them, but also systematic and thorough-going discrimination, persecution, oppression and disenfranchisement of them in all spheres) were and are racist. Actually and effectively. But the racism wasn't ideologically premised in Zionism, per se.

Israeli political ideology, on the other hand, could arguably be described as racist. (I'd say it is, actually. But I'd concede there was some room for debate.)

Is the kind of thing that's found below, OK, not OK, but nothing worth talking about, or something more along the lines, use your own words of course, the actions of racist psychopaths who will spend any amount of money on PR necessary so that they may be able to steal other peoples property, or, proof that sounder is an anti-Semite?


Not okay; worth talking about; the actions of amoral psychopaths in pursuit/defense of power but not specifically motivated by an inherent need or desire to steal other people's property or -- ftm -- concerned with other people at all, inasmuch as the psycopathy of the power-crazed arises from essentially solipsistic thinking/values; not if Sounder is talking about Israel rather than Jews.
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby Canadian_watcher » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:44 pm

Searcher08,

You've really been amazing in this thread and I want to take a minute to thank you for your patience and your thoughtful way of communicating.

I've just read AD's last response to you. What do you say we both get off this merry go round? I cannot believe how circular it is, how often the two of them MIB and AD will pull the exact same shit, and how we keep banging our heads against the wall like lunatics.

Honestly this sort of thing makes me feel like I'm losing my mind because I think "HOW can they not know that we've already provided examples/explained our point/answer the question!!" and "Are they seriously just out and out ignoring MY questions or am I the worst question-asker on planet earth because somehow they are acting oblivious to the fact that a conversation is supposed to be give and take."

*sigh*
Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own.-- Jonathan Swift

When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby American Dream » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:05 pm

compared2what? » Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:43 pm wrote:
Sounder » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:26 pm wrote:I wonder if somebody might ask AD for me if he considers Zionism to be a racist ideology?


Astonishingly impossible question to answer "Yes," considering that the movement based on it led directly to a territorially based genocide, the justification for which depends almost entirely on racism.

But be that as it may. It's not a racist ideology. It's a nationalist ideology that was realized as a neo-imperialist movement by people who took the cultural superiority/supremacy of the (implicitly European-white-normative) west for granted and probably still do. But not more or less so than the non-Zionist west, then or now, ideologically speaking.

Unless you mean Christian Zionism. But that's not really a racist ideology either. It's just religious rather than nationalist.

In any event. Just about all Zionist -- and later, Israeli -- actions against the Palestinians (meaning: not only slaughtering them, but also systematic and thorough-going discrimination, persecution, oppression and disenfranchisement of them in all spheres) were and are racist. Actually and effectively. But the racism wasn't ideologically premised in Zionism, per se.

Israeli political ideology, on the other hand, could arguably be described as racist. (I'd say it is, actually. But I'd concede there was some room for debate.)

Is the kind of thing that's found below, OK, not OK, but nothing worth talking about, or something more along the lines, use your own words of course, the actions of racist psychopaths who will spend any amount of money on PR necessary so that they may be able to steal other peoples property, or, proof that sounder is an anti-Semite?


Not okay; worth talking about; the actions of amoral psychopaths in pursuit/defense of power but not specifically motivated by an inherent need or desire to steal other people's property or -- ftm -- concerned with other people at all, inasmuch as the psycopathy of the power-crazed arises from essentially solipsistic thinking/values; not if Sounder is talking about Israel rather than Jews.


What c2w said.

I would add only that existing Zionism, as currently constituted- not as a historic abstract that could have set up shop anywhere in most any way- has definitely taken on a settler colonialist form that does rely on propagating racist, anti-Arab, islamophobic ideas in order to sustain that settler colonialist regime.
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby Searcher08 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:10 pm

Canadian_watcher » Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:44 pm wrote:Searcher08,

You've really been amazing in this thread and I want to take a minute to thank you for your patience and your thoughtful way of communicating.

I've just read AD's last response to you. What do you say we both get off this merry go round? I cannot believe how circular it is, how often the two of them MIB and AD will pull the exact same shit, and how we keep banging our heads against the wall like lunatics.

Honestly this sort of thing makes me feel like I'm losing my mind because I think "HOW can they not know that we've already provided examples/explained our point/answer the question!!" and "Are they seriously just out and out ignoring MY questions or am I the worst question-asker on planet earth because somehow they are acting oblivious to the fact that a conversation is supposed to be give and take."

*sigh*


Thank you so much for that.
I am waiting to hear back from the Mods and Jeff about my requests.

There is a whole theory about how schizophrenia develops, which is that it often arises when a person is subjected to double-binds within a family or Infinite loops. It can be extremely destructive to be on the receiving end of it, because one's inner experience can feel like being at a Kafka-esque trial, where sincere answers are treated as hostile, where information requested is ambigous and when matching level of 'granularity' is provided, this is criticized for not being specific. There is no way out - notice how the actual answers I gave are now ignored.

So you are correct, it's time. :hug1:
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby Elvis » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:11 pm



That's about the dumbest thing I've heard all day.
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby compared2what? » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:11 pm

Canadian_watcher » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:48 pm wrote:see that last line in that last post of mine? That is you speaking, AD. Where you say: "Not saying you want to propagate racism but unfortunately you do endorse it, no matter how good your intentions..."

what does that mean if it doesn't mean what it says?


Not that he's insisting that anyone who doesn't dismiss Icke whole cloth is a feeble minded unwitting anti-semite/racist. Because it really isn't an explicit or implicit accusation of personal racism/anti-Semitism and it doesn't say, suggest or approach the issue of feeble-mindedness at all. Witting or otherwise.

He's insisting that Icke's work is effectively and inherently racist/anti-Semitic propaganda. There's a legitimate case to be made for that. And against it. Many people might find one or the other offensive. But that doesn't make arguing that it is on non-personal grounds any less possible than arguing that it isn't. The debate's inherent to the material.
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby brekin » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:13 pm

Should of headed out the door without looking but...

CW wrote:
I assume that brekin has either got me on ignore, thinks I'm unworthy of his time, or can't think of anything good to say in response to me, but I'll persist because I'm persistent.

Missed your post in all the mix. I know we need each other and wouldn't ignore you.

brekin wrote:
Correct. If all his evidence for seeing a alien-human hybrid is he saw it down in the basement then I don't accept it in relation to everything else we currently know about the matter. If he came up and said he saw Sasquatch down in the basement I'd be of similar mind, but a little more open. .....


CW wrote:
in relation to everything else we know about the matter. huh. Can you help me understand because I feel I'm missing something. Can you give me a sample of 'everything else we know about the matter' of alien human hybrids?

also, why is this harder for you to give credence to than Sasquatch? Last I looked there is no "accepted evidence" of Sasquatch. Maybe you are waiting for someone to make a shoddy looking move of someone in a reptile suit walking across a stream? Here..



Everything else we know about the matter is that there is nothing. That is the problem. Other than Icke tales what do we have? Loose allusions and allegories from the biblical and archaeological record? You can extrapolate anything from that. We have a cool, done before much better, sci-fi story. If Icke was smart he would have scratched the alien angle and made the lizards intelligent bipedal native dinosaurs who raised and bred mammals as their slaves and then started experimenting with interbreeding or something. Off world aliens coming for our gold? Please, our gold resources are pitiful on this planet and a pain to extract.

Sasquatch is easier to believe, although not believable (for me, not researching it much), because of new species being found from time to time. A press shy hairy man like creature in remote areas is much easier to fathom than aliens coming from outer space to fuck us, enslave us and process gold for them to eat.

slimhouse wrote:
As for the whole racist deal, II actually like Ickes take on it. Christian, Jew, Muslim, American, English, Liberal, Conservative, ad infinitum are all being played against each other and consequeantly getting fucked over by a very tiny few.
To him, rather like myself, theyre just a load of made up names when you get right down to it. Every last category of the 99.9% are humans first, and as such we should realise that we're all in this together.

brekin wrote:
See, now lets get down to brass tacks. If for the human 99.9% we are just blameless pawns being manipulated by a .1% reptile-human hybrid then what should we do to this inhuman .1%?

Because "the question" is two part. (What do you do with our reptilian overlords?) And raises the specter of what Ickes final solution is to how he defines the problem.


CW wrote:
ohh God, "final solution."
but oh no, no, heaven's sake it's ridiculous to think that anyone's implying anti-semitism 'round here!


Well maybe since you've stated you are open to Icke's views what do you suggest should be done with the .1% reptile-human overlords who have enslaved all the humans and are responsible for all the world's miseries? If in fact, what Icke says is true what should humanity do when it gets off its knees? Will the humans reform these evil beings who have controlled us for thousands of years and subjected us to every imaginable horror (and have been stealing our gold! the greedy bastards!) CW what is the solution for the reptile-humans?
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby compared2what? » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:49 pm

American Dream » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:05 pm wrote:
I would add only that existing Zionism, as currently constituted- not as a historic abstract that could have set up shop anywhere in most any way- has definitely taken on a settler colonialist form that does rely on propagating racist, anti-Arab, islamophobic ideas in order to sustain that settler colonialist regime.


The problem is that as a contemporary political ideology "Zionism" really means neo-Zionism, which not only isn't specific to Israel or Jews (and/or the political interests of either) but might in fact be both anti-Semitic and completely uninterested in the long-term continued existence of Israel. So it's not just semantics, really. There are political implications/realities.
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby Searcher08 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:50 pm

American Dream » Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:35 pm wrote:
Searcher08 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:48 pm wrote:I am not going to HAVE to do anything, AD

I made a request of you, to ask the people mentioned how they felt ie their subjective experience as a result of your communication with them. I asked you for empathy and to be listened to.

You refused.


First I'd like to see some concrete examples of what you've alleged of me. Then we can move on from there.


ON EDIT: That's fair, right? You've complained to the mods about what you consider to be exceptionally bad behavior and it's quite reasonable to ask you to be specific by citing representative examples that illustrate your complaint.

If that's not reasonable to you, why not?
.


I made a simple (and sincere) request to you to engage, to take five and just to listen. To allow the locus, the centre of the communication to be The Other, not you. To ask and to listen without predudice. In a 'divine feminine' / receptive / empathic / nurturing way - this part is a Heart thing, not a Head thing. You are only doing 'Men are from Mars' - I was requesting 'Venusian'.

Why not?

Because it is order sensitive.
If you are able to really empathise with each of us, then what you describe as complaints are often transformed to a feedback that can empower BOTH parties.

It is the diference between, say, If I had an issue of how I am treated when I go into the coop bakery and ask about X, Y, Z orders and raise the issue. If someone comes out and engages and empathises (I'm sorry you are upset. May I listen? You sound really upset- and then just sincere listening and acknowledging taking place) before taking on board what is said
versus
'You have not provided me with a list of complaints.'
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Re: David Icke: Methods Of A Madman

Postby American Dream » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:16 pm

Searcher08 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:50 pm wrote:
American Dream » Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:35 pm wrote:
Searcher08 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:48 pm wrote:I am not going to HAVE to do anything, AD

I made a request of you, to ask the people mentioned how they felt ie their subjective experience as a result of your communication with them. I asked you for empathy and to be listened to.

You refused.


First I'd like to see some concrete examples of what you've alleged of me. Then we can move on from there.


ON EDIT: That's fair, right? You've complained to the mods about what you consider to be exceptionally bad behavior and it's quite reasonable to ask you to be specific by citing representative examples that illustrate your complaint.

If that's not reasonable to you, why not?
.


I made a simple (and sincere) request to you to engage, to take five and just to listen. To allow the locus, the centre of the communication to be The Other, not you. To ask and to listen without predudice. In a 'divine feminine' / receptive / empathic / nurturing way - this part is a Heart thing, not a Head thing. You are only doing 'Men are from Mars' - I was requesting 'Venusian'.

Why not?

Because it is order sensitive.
If you are able to really empathise with each of us, then what you describe as complaints are often transformed to a feedback that can empower BOTH parties.

It is the diference between, say, If I had an issue of how I am treated when I go into the coop bakery and ask about X, Y, Z orders and raise the issue. If someone comes out and engages and empathises (I'm sorry you are upset. May I listen? You sound really upset- and then just sincere listening and acknowledging taking place) before taking on board what is said
versus
'You have not provided me with a list of complaints.'


Searcher- quite honestly, I'll be more receptive to your request after you ground the complaints you have lodged against me in concrete happenings.

That is how I feel and it doesn't seem likely to change soon.
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