Trayvon Martin

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Re: Trayvon Martin

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:55 pm

Searcher08 » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:46 am wrote:The Purpose Of a System Is What It Does, (often shortened to POSIWID) is a systems thinking heuristic coined by Stafford Beer.
Origins of term

Stafford Beer coined the term POSIWID and used it many times in public addresses. Perhaps most forcefully in his address to the University of Valladolid, Spain, in October 2001, he said "According to the cybernetician, the purpose of a system is what it does. This is a basic dictum. It stands for bald fact, which makes a better starting point in seeking understanding than the familiar attributions of good intention, prejudices about expectations, moral judgment, or sheer ignorance of circumstances."[1]

W. L. Livingston, P.E. made extensive use of the term POSIWID in his book Have Fun at Work published in 1988. ISBN 0937063053.
Uses of term

The term is now widely used by systems theorists. It is generally invoked to counter the notion that the purpose of a system can be read from the intentions of those who design, operate, or promote it. From a cybernetic perspective complex systems are not controllable by simple notions of management, and interventions in a system can best be understood by looking at how they affect observed system behavior. When "side effects" or "unintended consequences" reveal that system behavior is poorly understood then taking the POSIWID perspective allows the more political understandings of system behavior to be balanced by a more straightforwardly descriptive view.


Excellent, thanks for the terminology of the obvious. The only disagreement is with the last sentence. POSIWID is the political understanding. Politics is what really happens, not what ideology pretends happens. The focus on putative intents is almost always coupled with a profoundly apolitical stance that pretends systems don't exist to serve interests, or the purposes they actually fulfill as opposed to the purposes that some ideal fictional "good people" would like to see.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

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The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: Trayvon Martin

Postby compared2what? » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:27 pm

Wombaticus Rex » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:30 am wrote:It is unfortunate indeed that a Obamadmin DOJ effort to get involved with this will only lead to negative second-order effects. I cannot think of a better way to prolong (and escalate) the rancor and rhetoric on race in America.


I think it would be tremendous if he used his first-black-presidency to do that. It might not help all that much. But I don't see how it could possibly make things worse. White outrage is already as high as it can go, considering that white people don't really have anything to be outraged about wrt race.

I'm curious to hear your reasoning.

Wombaticus Rex wrote:Chill with the binary thinking.

There's currently about a dozen other cases that DOJ could take up right now, many of them have been referenced in this thread already.

It's not like the only other option is "nothing," here.


They won't be any more or less taken up than they would have been if the political opportunity to do something about this case hadn't arisen.

So I think that's kind of a false dichotomy.. But I mean it respectfully. I'm not sure what you have in mind.
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Re: Trayvon Martin

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:01 pm

I was thinking specifically of Jordan Davis.

I would definitely concede your point that America may currently be frothing at "Peak Hatred" and there will be no qualitative or quantitative difference.

I would also note that I should have clarified, rather than implied, that DOJ taking this up would have positive first-order effects.
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Re: Trayvon Martin

Postby justdrew » Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:07 pm

stevie ray » 19 Jul 2013 08:28 wrote:this thread makes me want to puke


then puke already, no use holding it in.

Personally, I expect a sicko like G.Z. had studied the shit out of the Justifiable Homicide legal situation and knew full well he was in a situation that he could get away with murder.

I no longer give ANY credence to Travon having attacked G.Z.

G.Z. has lied WAY too many times for anything he says to be taken at face value.
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Re: Trayvon Martin

Postby Searcher08 » Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:41 pm

A complex system will serve it's own interests and seek to maintain itself while adhering to its own norms, but the systems into which it is embedded may in the long term have a much larger effect than it can deal with in a viable way... as Stafford indicated when he was asked why, given his work with making a system resiliient to changes in its environment, could Allende's Chile not have survived - IIRC, he said it was like asking why a deer couldnt adapt to a bullet through its head...

A really simple strategy for maintaining in place the same system that outputs GZ/TM scenarios (ie this one)
Image

is to use 'resource bargaining' on the lower level system, and if that doesnt work, then removal of some aspects of the lower level system into the higher one...

So if you see cross-party blessed Federal task forces set-up and a possible Treyvons Law and a media wide dissection of similar cases in a commission that takes many months - all that will result in a further centralisation of power while ensuring that the ACTUAL problem system (the DOJ) is not examined / re-engineered / re-designed.

The POSIWID perspective says that using the incarceration of black men as a business opportunity probably isnt going to be addressed by a Treyvons Law.

Why on Earth would a person who is making lots of dosh from modern day slavery want a slave killed? A dead Treyvon Martin wont be making anyone any money, a live one has a good chance (statistically) of being sucked into jail and as long as he is there, they are coining it, in what I suggest is a deeply corrupt retribution and slavery perpetuation system.
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Re: Trayvon Martin

Postby justdrew » Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:00 pm

In fact, it seems to me to be a fairly high crime rate area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trayvon_Martin#Background_of_the_shooting

I guess the gates don't do much good?

G.Z. is "patrolling" this three block area, but doesn't see T.M. enter, having used a valid entry code?

OR...

how many of these unsolved robberies/thefts are actually insurance scams?
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Re: Trayvon Martin

Postby compared2what? » Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:05 pm

Searcher08 » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:41 pm wrote:A complex system will serve it's own interests and seek to maintain itself while adhering to its own norms, but the systems into which it is embedded may in the long term have a much larger effect than it can deal with in a viable way... as Stafford indicated when he was asked why, given his work with making a system resiliient to changes in its environment, could Allende's Chile not have survived - IIRC, he said it was like asking why a deer couldnt adapt to a bullet through its head...

A really simple strategy for maintaining in place the same system that outputs GZ/TM scenarios (ie this one)
Image

is to use 'resource bargaining' on the lower level system, and if that doesnt work, then removal of some aspects of the lower level system into the higher one...

So if you see cross-party blessed Federal task forces set-up and a possible Treyvons Law and a media wide dissection of similar cases in a commission that takes many months - all that will result in a further centralisation of power while ensuring that the ACTUAL problem system (the DOJ) is not examined / re-engineered / re-designed.

The POSIWID perspective says that using the incarceration of black men as a business opportunity probably isnt going to be addressed by a Treyvons Law.

Why on Earth would a person who is making lots of dosh from modern day slavery want a slave killed? A dead Treyvon Martin wont be making anyone any money, a live one has a good chance (statistically) of being sucked into jail and as long as he is there, they are coining it, in what I suggest is a deeply corrupt retribution and slavery perpetuation system.


The DOJ is many systems, not just one.

And it has some history of having advanced the ball wrt civil rights before, notably...

    We will not stand by or be aloof—we will move. I happen to believe that the 1954 [Supreme Court school desegregation] decision was right. But my belief does not matter. It is now the law. Some of you may believe the decision was wrong. That does not matter. It is the law. -- Robert F. Kennedy, 1961

...^^when that guy was Attorney General.

So while I'm not holding my breath or anything, I'm not quite ready to derogate the possibility that a small increase of justice of some kind that's generally consonant with less shooting-of-black-people-with-impunity-by-whites in this country may yet occur some day.

Because it's a long and inglorious tradition. Even a purely symbolic, cynical, and politically motivated stand against it would be a refreshing change. And a major one.
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Re: Trayvon Martin

Postby compared2what? » Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:11 pm

Wombaticus Rex » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:01 pm wrote:I was thinking specifically of Jordan Davis.


(ON EDIT)

They can't take that up right now, though. It hasn't gone to trial yet.

I would definitely concede your point that America may currently be frothing at "Peak Hatred" and there will be no qualitative or quantitative difference.


Never say never, wrt positive change. But you're probably right.

I just don't think we have a race-riot economy right now. Or will have, in the foreseeable future. That's not really reasoned, though. Just intuition.
Last edited by compared2what? on Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trayvon Martin

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:22 pm

Image

Key Mistakes Sway Jury in Zimmerman Trial
Wednesday, 17 July 2013 09:57
By Marjorie Cohn, Truthout

George Zimmerman leaves court after being acquitted in Sanford, Florida, July 13, 2013.
A Southern jury of six women – none of them black – found 28-year-old George Zimmerman's shooting of unarmed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin to be justifiable homicide because he acted in self-defense.
The jurors were prohibited from considering race. They were instructed only on the parts of self-defense law that helped Zimmerman, and the chief police investigator improperly testified that he believed Zimmerman.
Jury prevented from considering race
None of the jurors thought race played a role in the case, Juror B-37 told CNN's Anderson Cooper. In fact the question of Zimmerman profiling Martin because he was African-American didn't even come up in deliberations, the juror said.
No wonder it never came up. At the beginning of the trial, the judge forbade the prosecution from speaking about racial profiling. Only the word "profiling" could be used, Judge Debra S. Nelson ruled. "Criminal profiling is based on behavior," NAACP President Benjamin Jealous said on Democracy Now! "Racial profiling is based on color and on race. And the reality is that it appears that George Zimmerman had a pattern of confusing color with grounds for suspicion."
The entire trial from start to finish was sanitized of any mention of race.
Zimmerman told the 911 operator, "These fucking punks" and "these assholes, they always get away," when he spotted Martin walking down the street in Sanford, Florida, that fateful evening. "Looks like he's up to no good or he's on drugs or something," Zimmerman said. "Something's wrong with him." When an investigator later asked Zimmerman what he meant by those words, the shooter replied, "I don't know."
But the prosecutor was forbidden from telling the jury that the "something" that was "wrong" may have been the color of Martin's skin. The Rev. Dr. Raphael G. Warnock, senior pastor at the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, told the New York Times, "Trayvon Benjamin Martin is dead because he and other black boys and men like him are seen not as a person but a problem."
Howard Simon, executive director of the ACLU of Florida, noted, "George Zimmerman saw a young black male as a threat to his community."
Clifford Alexander, who worked as a lawyer in the Lyndon Johnson White House, said in an interview with the Washington Post, "The clear reason why Zimmerman had the audacity to approach this child was that he saw the color of his skin as a threat."
Two days after the shooting, Zimmerman's cousin, known as Witness No. 9, told a Sanford police officer in a telephone call, "I know George. And I know that he does not like black people." She added, "He would start something. He's a very confrontational person. It's in his blood. Let's just say that. I don't want this poor kid and his family to just be overlooked."
But the judge sanitized the case and everyone involved was forced to ignore the elephant in the room. Indeed, after the verdict, Mark O'Mara, Zimmerman's defense attorney, made the preposterous statement that if his client were black, "he never would've been charged with a crime."
Jury prevented from considering first aggressor
Florida’s self-defense law prohibits "initial aggressors" from using force if their own conduct has provoked that force. So if a defendant "initially provokes the use of force" against himself, he cannot claim to have acted in self-defense, unless he withdraws or retreats.
The prosecution asked the judge to instruct the jury that it could consider who was the first aggressor in the altercation between Zimmerman and Martin. If the judge had agreed to give that instruction, the jury might have concluded that, by following Martin, Zimmerman provoked a physical response from Martin. The defense objected to the instruction, and the judge decided not to give the first aggressor instruction.
The jury was instructed to consider only whether Zimmerman reasonably believed deadly force was necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself - when he later tussled with Martin on the ground. The jury was also told Zimmerman had no duty to retreat, that he could stand his ground, and meet force with force- including deadly force - if he was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in a place he had a right to be. Finally, the judge instructed the jury that if it had a reasonable doubt about whether Zimmerman was justified in using deadly force, they should find him not guilty.
The instructions prevented the jury from considering whether Zimmerman was the first aggressor when he got out of his truck and began following Martin. When Zimmerman told the 911 operator, "Shit, he's running," the operator asked, "Are you following him?" Zimmerman said that he was. "OK, we don't need you to do that," the operator told Zimmerman. But Zimmerman followed Martin nevertheless. Rachel Jeantel testified that Martin told her on the cellphone he was being followed by a "creepy ass cracker."
The jury was only given partial instructions on self-defense – those parts that helped Zimmerman. They were prevented from considering whether Zimmerman might have been the first aggressor, which would have negated his claim of self-defense.
Ultimately, nothing mattered to the jury, Juror B-37 told Cooper, except whether Zimmerman feared for his life in the seconds before he shot Martin.
Juror B-37 said that Zimmerman was guilty of nothing more than "not using good judgment." She added, "Both were responsible for the situation they had gotten themselves into."
Officer permitted to make credibility judgment
Sanford police officer Chris Serino, the chief investigator on the case, testified that, given all the evidence, he believed Zimmerman was telling the truth. It is well-established that witnesses cannot make credibility judgments – it invades the jury's exclusive province of determining the credibility and weight of any evidence. But the prosecution didn't object to Serino's testimony until the next morning, at which point the judge told the jury to disregard it. Yet the damage was done, and Serino again testified that there were no significant inconsistencies in Zimmerman's statements to police.
From the beginning, Serino did not believe there was enough evidence to file criminal charges against Zimmerman. The officer told the FBI that he was pressured into making the arrest. Zimmerman finally was charged for Martin's death only after a powerful national outcry, and the governor's appointment of a special prosecutor - 40 days following the killing.
Serino testified, "In this case, [Zimmerman] could have been considered the victim also." Likewise, Juror B-37 felt sorry for both of them - the dead boy and the shooter alike.
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Trayvon Martin

Postby chump » Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:39 pm

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/19/politics/ ... index.html
Obama: Trayvon Martin could've been me...

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Re: Trayvon Martin

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:42 pm

ImageImage
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Trayvon Martin

Postby parel » Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:46 pm

OBAMA COMPARES HIMSELF TO TRAYVON, AND SAYS "THINGS GETTING BETTER"

Obama's Trickster Speech on Trayvon

I considered Obama's rise as an indication of the growing rise of the Black and Brown struggle within the usa and also the rise of the Black and Brown nations, ie., the rise of the GlobalSouth in the world, and that Obama's acceptance into the highest power political position by the white power structure was a way by which the latter is trying to deal with these issues.

What is clear since, that I was wrong that there would be much positive from this development, and that was clearly confirmed by Obama leading the bombing of Africa (Libya) in the summer of 2011, overseeing the mass lynching of dark skinned people there, and the continuing military expansion of the usa across Africa as a measure to block Africa's growing independence in alliance with the other regions of the GlobalSouth especially the BRICS. Also, Obama is the lead representative of the renewed war on Asia in the "pivot to Asia" strategy to bring especially China, Russia and India to its knees and neturalise them as potential and actual obstacles to imperialism in Asia.

These comments by Obama on the killing of Trayvon Martin, and the not guilty verdict on his killer is frankly trickster talk, to quote Malcolm X.

The last thing the usa white power structure wants is another LA Riot, a massive uprising of the Black, Brown and poor following the filmed beating of Rodney King and the acquittal of the pigs that beat him. Tensions are high amongst Black people and their allies, there has been no major uprising of our peoples in the usa since 1992 in the LA Riots. There is little doubt that there will be another uprising in the usa with all the economic crisis and the political fall out this is creating. Indeed, Obama makes clear in the speech below on Trayvon warning against any violent reaction by people in response to the acquittal of Trayvon's killer.

Obama states that "things are getting better" for Black people in the usa. Is this true? All indicators point to that on the economic and state oppressive levels, this is not true.

So Obama seems to be yet again allowing himself to be used by the whitehouse to placate and put our peoples to sleep. That being said, there are some truths in what he is saying. However, small truths are wrapped in a crafty strategy to put people to sleep and at the same time warn people with consequences if they get too militant. This type of tricks might fool the weak, but not the vigilant.

Sukant Chandan, Sons of Malcolm


Speaking for the first time since the neighbourhood watch volunteer was acquitted of murdering Trayvon Martin, Mr Obama spoke in highly personal terms as he reflected on his remark last year that if he had a son, he would look like Trayvon.

Drawing an even more direct connection to the fate of the 17-year-old, he said: “Another way of saying that is, Trayvon Martin could’ve been me, 35 years ago.”

Mr Obama, in his most personal and powerful words on race since becoming president, made an unscheduled appearance in the White House briefing room where he talked for 20 minutes without a teleprompter.

He described his own experiences of racial profiling, which Trayvon’s family said that Mr Zimmerman did the night he shot him dead after he told police that the teen was acting suspiciously.

“There are very few African-American men who haven’t had the experience of being followed in a department store ... that includes me,” Mr Obama said.

"There are very few African-American men who haven’t had the experience of walking across the street and hearing the locks click on the doors of cars. That happened to me, at least before I was a senator.

"There are very few African-Americans who haven’t had the experience of getting on an elevator and a woman clutching her purse nervously and holding her breath until she had a chance to get off. That happens often."

He also backed the calls by Eric Holder, his Attorney General, for a review of controversial “stand your ground” self-defence laws to head off violent confrontations.

“If Trayvon Martin was of age and he was armed, could he have ‘stood his ground’ on that sidewalk?” Mr Obama said.

He added: “If a white male teen was involved in the same kind of scenario, from top to bottom, both the outcome and the aftermath might have been different.”

He called for “some soul-searching” but he also expressed concerns about America embarking on a “national conversation on race”, as some have called for at protests since the verdict.

He also said he does not want the nation to “lose sight” of the progress that has been made on race relations.

“It doesn’t mean we’re in a post-racial society or that racism has been eliminated,” he said, but the situation was improving.

Mr Holder’s justice department is investigating whether to press federal hate crime charges against Mr Zimmerman, but legal experts say it is extremely unlikely that they will be able to find the evidence for such prosecution.

Mr Obama urged country to respect the Zimmerman verdict, but also said that white Americans need to understand the problems of racism.

With a typical rhetorical flourish, he adapted a quote from Abraham Lincoln. People should appeal to “the better angels” of human natures, he said, rather than using incidents like Travyvon’s death and Mr Zimmerman’s acquittal to “heighten divisions”.
Last edited by parel on Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Trayvon Martin

Postby Freitag » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:37 pm

C2W, I was going to reply with multiple quotes but it was a headache to properly nest all the quote tags.

You're right, there's no evidence TM attacked GZ. Neither is there any evidence of the reverse. Nobody knows who threw the first punch, who attacked who.

My point was, the evidence is consistent with GZ being attacked. He didn't have to change any part of his initial story because the evidence contradicted it. It all "supported" what he said (by not contradicting it - I think it was my laymanesque use of this word that you took such umbrage to.)
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Re: Trayvon Martin

Postby justdrew » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:49 pm

If this thing went the way the local head cop wanted, no arrest or charges would even have been brought.

I find it unimaginable that a killing can occur under completely dubious unproven sole-survivor testimony and a COP thinks, "hey, no crime here, no need to arrest anyone."

If it's REALLY that simple, that Justifiable Homicide will just be ASSUMED to be the case, based TOTALLY on the shooter's say-so, then I would assume that we are going to be seeing A LOT more of this going on. In fact it looks like there are hundreds of such cases every year, absolved at trial. How many more does a DA not even chose to bring charges?

It's the old west out there. You see someone who looks to be GOING for a gun, you better shoot them first. The quicker draw is CLEARLY innocent by this jury's standards.
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Re: Trayvon Martin

Postby American Dream » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:55 pm

Let me be clear – there is no way to distance yourself from the white supremacist system if you are white. The only way to distance oneself from a white supremacist system is to destroy it. By destroy I do not simply mean internally “checking your privilege,” which I’m not sure is an action at all but more of a stopping of action. I mean literally destroy. Refuse to acknowledge this legal system as legitimate. Take down every prison, every courtroom, take the guns and the authority of the state away from every police officer. Disband our colonialist military.

To White Folks: a Collective Lament of Trayvon Martin is Not Your Anti-Racist Political Platform
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