Animal Consciousness

by **Rigorous Intuition** » Fri May 05, 2006 1:05 pm

I've been archiving avian flu under <a href="http://p216.ezboard.com/frigorousintuitionfrm30">"Health"</a>.

by **HMKGrey** » Fri May 05, 2006 1:33 pm

Sheldrake is a fascinating guy. He coined the term 'morphic resonance' - and wrote another fascinating book called - I think - "The Sense of Being Stared At". More here: <a href="http://www.sheldrake.org/">www.sheldrake.org/</a>

by **FourthBase** » Fri May 05, 2006 4:00 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I have to ask, does the same apply to non-human carnivores?<hr></blockquote> Why, because if it doesn't then we're absolved? Hardly. Funny how we deny animals a consciousness that deserves rights like our own, but we use the product of their consciousness as a moral justification for acting like them. It's beyond hypocritical. Besides, do you really want to justify a matter of human ethics using the examples of sharks, alligators, lions, snakes, hyenas? Predators who hunt and murder weaker animals? Aren't they seen as terrifying monsters by all sentient mammals? There are more herbivores in the animal world than there are carnivores, if we're using examples -- why not the herbivores? Why use the -- yes -- serial killers of the animal world? Animal predators I bet have a neurophysiology similar to human serial killers. I don't see us mimicking human serial killers because they "occur naturally". Besides, wouldn't that appealing-to-animal carnivores logic only justify killing and eating animal predators? In what way would it justify the murder of cows, pigs, chickens, turkeys, ducks, sheep, and even most fish? Where are your great-white-shark fillets, your gator nuggets, your bear-burgers, your snake-meat salad? If... 1. Humans have a highly evolved consciousness capable of (and in the civilized world responsible for) making moral decisions against the grain of our animal roots, then we are responsible for making the decision not to kill and eat animals, even though in their degraded consciousness some of them do the same. 2. Humans only have a qualitatively differentiated consciousness compared to animals, then we have no business murdering them, because they're just like us, just a little dumber and furrier. Either way, there's no excuse for it.

by **Sarutama** » Fri May 05, 2006 4:41 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Why, because if it doesn't then we're absolved? Hardly. Funny how we deny animals a consciousness that deserves rights like our own, but we use the product of their consciousness as a moral justification for acting like them. It's beyond hypocritical. Why, because if it doesn't then we're absolved? Hardly. Funny how we deny animals a consciousness that deserves rights like our own, but we use the product of their consciousness as a moral justification for acting like them. It's beyond hypocritical. Besides, do you really want to justify a matter of human ethics using the examples of sharks, alligators, lions, snakes, hyenas? Predators who hunt and murder weaker animals? Aren't they seen as terrifying monsters by all sentient mammals? There are more herbivores in the animal world than there are carnivores, if we're using examples -- why not the herbivores? Why use the -- yes -- serial killers of the animal world? Animal predators I bet have a neurophysiology similar to human serial killers. I don't see us mimicking human serial killers because they "occur naturally". Besides, wouldn't that appealing-to-animal carnivores logic only justify killing and eating animal predators? In what way would it justify the murder of cows, pigs, chickens, turkeys, ducks, sheep, and even most fish? Where are your great-white-shark fillets, your gator nuggets, your bear-burgers, your snake-meat salad? If... 1. Humans have a highly evolved consciousness capable of (and in the civilized world responsible for) making moral decisions against the grain of our animal roots, then we are responsible for making the decision not to kill and eat animals, even though in their degraded consciousness some of them do the same. 2. Humans only have a qualitatively differentiated consciousness compared to animals, then we have no business murdering them, because they're just like us, just a little dumber and furrier. Either way, there's no excuse for it. <hr></blockquote> I asked only because I was curious abut your position. Wanted to hear what you had to say. But thank you for assuming you knew exaclty why I asked and where my position lay on the subject and answering with completely unwarranted hostility.

by **FourthBase** » Fri May 05, 2006 5:13 pm

I'm sorry for making assumptions about your question. I saw an argument in it that wasn't there. But forgive me, because it has been asked in that context before. Please know that I was responding to the question's typical context, and not you personally. Notice that I used the pronoun "we". None of the hostility was meant toward you specifically.

by **slimmouse** » Fri May 05, 2006 5:25 pm

We are genetically engineered anyways. Lion/Ape, with a reptillian brainstem. And have a look at the domesticated pig. Where does he come from, and why exactly is it that certain religions dont eat pork, and why are all their (pigs) organs Ideal for humans - apart from the curly bit of course <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif ALT=";)"> ? One of these days people will wake up out their Darwinian/Creationalist stupidity. But not of course whilst the Religions and their new prototype ( money led Science) have their way.

by **FourthBase** » Fri May 05, 2006 6:00 pm

Funny, but did you see the recent news about scientists trying to genetically engineer the ideal pig for food consumption? The desired qualities: Taste and low cholesterol. Well...how about designing a pig with no central nervous system, no brain, no consciousness?

by **thoughtographer** » Fri May 05, 2006 6:13 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>apart from the curly bit of course<hr></blockquote> Oh, I'm sure some dipshit would want to have a spiral-shaped penis (or tail) attached if it were offered. "A crooked stick will cast a crooked shadow."

by **FourthBase** » Fri May 05, 2006 6:23 pm

<a href="http://www.salon.com/people/feature/1999/11/23/sheldrake/print.html">www.salon.com/people/feat...print.html</a>

by **slimmouse** » Fri May 05, 2006 6:41 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Oh, I'm sure some dipshit would want to have a spiral-shaped penis (or tail) attached if it were offered.<hr></blockquote> Of course we all have the remnants of a tail. Some people are actually still born with one , no ? And of course the lionness doesnt have a beard. And then of course, theres that there sphinx. We have all these 'Egyptolygists' insisting that its a dog. But then again, Im Charlie Chaplin.

by **FourthBase** » Fri May 05, 2006 6:58 pm

From the Salon article... <blockquote>Quote:<hr>He discovered data that backed him. For example, when mice in a research facility in London were taught to improve their maze-running skills, "unschooled" mice in a Paris lab began better navigating their mazes as well. On a South Pacific island, a gourmet monkey discovered that washing the dirt off his raw potato was healthy and made the spud taste better. On islands throughout the archipelago, monkeys simultaneously began washing their potatoes. This means the truism that ideas are "just in the air" has validity.<hr></blockquote> So that's a fact, not fiction?

by **johnny nemo** » Fri May 05, 2006 6:59 pm

Like everything else in our holographic universe, there's more going on than meets the eye. A few months after the opening of King Tut's tomb, tragedy struck. Lord Carnarvon, 57, was taken ill and rushed to Cairo. He died a few days later. The exact cause of death was not known, but it seemed to be from an infection started by an insect bite. Legend has it that when he died there was a short power failure and all the lights throughout Cairo went out.  His son reported that back on his estate in England his favorite dog howled and suddenly dropped dead. Even more strange, when the mummy of Tutankhamun was unwrapped in 1925, it was found to have a wound on the left cheek in the same exact position as the insect bite on Carnarvon that lead to his death.

by **Chiaroscuro** » Sat May 06, 2006 3:04 am

"How could it have followed them across several states to a place it had never been on a trail a month old?' -- Chiaroscuro I recently had occasion to do a small amount of research on the presence of magnetite in birds' brains, googlesearchlink: tinyurl.com/zqqgk, as regards their navigational abilities. There is also a field of study on the presence of magnetite in humans at tinyurl.com/zd452, which I've only just begun. This would explain a sense of direction but does not explain my relative's dog. He had never left the area he was born so how would he know what direction to go find his humans? Interesting about the magentite tho. This might explain why I can find my way home when walking in the woods near my home when I first moved there without knowing landmarks. I just knew that 'that-a-way' was the correct way to go.

by **DireStrike** » Sat May 06, 2006 1:24 pm

For what its worth, it's been my opinion/observation that my cats have always acted more "human" than my autistic brother. How different is animal consciousness from human consciousness? Not very much. Consciousness differs between individuals and between species, but it's still consciousness. It's probably not a question that can be answered by science, unfortunately.

by **jingofever** » Sun May 07, 2006 3:50 am

Parrots: <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3430481.stm">news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/scien...430481.stm</a> Dolphins: <a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2168604,00.html">www.timesonline.co.uk/art...04,00.html</a> <blockquote>Quote:<hr>Eventually it may be possible for humans to speak with another species. I have come to this conclusion after careful consideration of evidence gained through my research experiments with dolphins. If new scientific developements are to be made in this direction, however, certain changes in our basic orientation and philosophy will be necessary.<hr></blockquote> -- John Lilly, from "Man and Dolphin"

Animal Consciousness

Re: IMO at least some animals have consciousness

Re: IMO at least some animals have consciousness

Non-human carnivores

Re: Non-human carnivores

Re: Non-human carnivores

We are genetically engineered anyways.

Re: We are genetically engineered anyways.

Re: We are genetically engineered anyways.

Sheldrake

Of course....

Re: Of course....

Here's a strange occcurence involving animals and insects

re: magenetite

Re: Animal Consciousness

interspecies communication

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