How to Overthrow the Illuminati

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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby OP ED » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:44 am

minime » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:54 pm wrote:"I am a communist with a lowercase "c" (meaning I want to de-commodify land and labor so we can share everything equally, with no state over us)."

Can you walk me through that?



yes, but you need to read a primer first:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_communism

or perhaps :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_communism

also, for OP ED's closer tendencies:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syndicalism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demarchy

[OP ED's point being that you may wish to educate yourself on the basics of a subject with a very long history of complex studies before requesting that someone should enumerate all of its details in a bulletin board thread. if you're serious about understanding the subject, at any rate]

[unless of course you're just trolling, at which point: nevermind]
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby American Dream » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:39 am

Elvis » Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:57 pm wrote:
What I'm saying is, I can't understand why you'd bolster your point with a weak thesis condemning yoga and environmentalism (etc.) as evil facets of a racist "movement" led by David Icke. The authors are either incredibly sloppy thinkers and researchers, or plain dishonest. Their real targets seem to be everything 'alternative', linking them all -- yoga, environmentalism etc. -- with David Icke and the racist right; I'm surprised that doesn't offend you.

To answer your question, I think Icke veers all over the road and there's no question that he picks up far-right kooks and "Hitler-not-such-a-bad-guy" nutcases. My advice to friends is to stay away from that bathwater. Landing in his forum on some unrelated Google search, I was just astonished that those poisonous posters are allowed to continue there (I don't know what the moderation policies are, if any, but that short visit gave me added appreciation of the moderating principles here on this forum).

So I'm with you on the need to discern racism when it comes in pretty packages, but let's also discern the value of our sources when exposing it. I think you've made your case sufficiently without resorting to articles like the one above and the pathetically inconsequential "Consprituality" piece.


Hey Elvis-

This is a quote about some other critics of right wingy New Age/ecology/conspiracy blends but I thought of your (legitimate) concerns when I read it:

The narrow rationality exemplified in Biehl’s and Staudenmaier’s text, and their lack of distinction between the opportunistic exploitation by rightists of ecological concerns and sensibilities, and the causes and concerns themselves, turns a potentially important work into a mixture of insight and sectarian folly. We undermine our capacity to expose and neutralize fascist ecomysticism when we label all ecomysticism as fascist; we surrender the terrain to fascist and authoritarian spiritual obscurantism by failing to comprehend the deep human need to embrace spirit. As Joel Kovel has argued eloquently, spirituality is not simply a false or alienated response to class oppression but is rooted ontologically in human being itself — in ‘the general predicament of our species: general discontinuity with the rest of being,’ and ‘the opaque mystery of consciousness.’ It is powerful because it is an ‘interrogation of being from the standpoint of nonbeing [with] no discrete answer to the interrogation and therefore no prescribed spirituality…’

— David Watson, Swamp Fever, Primitivism and the “Ideological Vortex”
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby American Dream » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:54 am

We are communists, but our communism is not that of the authoritarian school: it is anarchist communism, communism without government, free communism. It is a synthesis of the two chief aims prosecuted by humanity since the dawn of its history–economic freedom and political freedom.

— Kropotkin


http://class-struggle-anarchism.tumblr.com/
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby American Dream » Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:05 am

http://freethoughtblogs.com/dispatches/ ... onspiracy/

APR 21 2013

Robertson Pushes Illuminati Conspiracy

Wingnuttia by Ed Brayton

Pat Robertson spouted idiotic conspiracies about the Illuminati on the 700 Club recently, claiming they were behind the French Revolution. And wouldn’t you know, it involves same-sex marriage? Of course it does. Because letting gay people get married will create a country without God. Or something.

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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby minime » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:20 am

Thank you OP ED and AD.

OP ED » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:44 am wrote:
minime » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:54 pm wrote:"I am a communist with a lowercase "c" (meaning I want to de-commodify land and labor so we can share everything equally, with no state over us)."

Can you walk me through that?



yes, but you need to read a primer first:


No doubt. And I will follow up on it.

I find it a little deflating that AD, one of the most prolific members of the forum, should have not made it clear, after years of effort, to Sounder and Wombaticus Rex, two of the most intelligent people on the forum, and longtime interlocutors, what the basic tenets of his beliefs are.

So, I was exhorting him to do so.

My impression has been that the purpose of statist Communism has always been stateless communism, beginning with Marx and ending with the ferryman. The issue is the philosophy certainly... moreso the implementation.

Since AD and Mamos206 do not have the option presently of implementing stateless communism without the hindrance of the State, and since, once implemented, the State will have of withered away... the process--AD's version of the attempt to "de-commodify land and labor so we can share everything equally, with no state over us"--is what interests me here.

A ferryman is ready and waiting, with his small boat, on the tempestuous waters of a river. A philosopher, wishing to get to the other side, climbs aboard. There ensues the following dialogue:

Philosopher: Do you know anything of history, ferryman?

Ferryman: No!

Philosopher: Then you’ve wasted half your life!

And again: The Philosopher: Have you studied mathematics?

Ferryman: No!

Philosopher: Then you’ve wasted more than half your life.

Hardly were these words out of the philosopher’s mouth when the wind capsized the boat, precipitating both ferryman and philosopher into the water. Whereupon,

Ferryman shouts: Can you swim?

Philosopher: No!

Ferryman: Then you’ve wasted your whole life.

- Karl Marx, 1882
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby American Dream » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:51 am

minime » Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:20 am wrote:
I find it a little deflating that AD, one of the most prolific members of the forum, should have not made it clear, after years of effort, to Sounder and Wombaticus Rex, two of the most intelligent people on the forum, and longtime interlocutors, what the basic tenets of his beliefs are.

So, I was exhorting him to do so.

My impression has been that the purpose of statist Communism has always been stateless communism, beginning with Marx and ending with the ferryman. The issue is the philosophy certainly... moreso the implementation.

Since AD and Mamos206 do not have the option presently of implementing stateless communism without the hindrance of the State, and since, once implemented, the State will have of withered away... the process--AD's version of the attempt to "de-commodify land and labor so we can share everything equally, with no state over us"--is what interests me here.



I've been making clear for years the "tenets of my beliefs" such as they are- though they are constantly evolving. See for example the Economic Aspects of "Love" thread- all 160 pages!

As to what to do now- that's a lot easier than seeing into the future and divining a perfect plan all the way to Total Liberation.

Right now I'm good with grassroots, collective organizing against Capital and the State, based on liberatory principles like anti-Racism, Queer Liberation, post-Patriarchy etc.

Resisting evictions, reclaiming land to the Commons for gardening and other things, autonomous labor struggle, immigrant rights, prison abolition- these are a few of my favorite things...
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby seemslikeadream » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:59 am

Resisting evictions.....I'll pass that one on to the Native Americans....I'm sure they have a bit of an immigrant problem themselves.....prison abolition......try a reservation or two


just a few of my favorite things
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby minime » Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:29 am



Done. Of course the articles are by necessity extremely dense, conceptually and historically. Obviously I have not mastered the topic(s). And all the isms and archys! Anarchist communism has two all by itself. Must be confusing to the bourgeoisie.

The Wikipedia entry has 12 footnotes in the first paragraph alone...

Anarchist communism[1] (also known as anarcho-communism, free communism, libertarian communism,[2][3][4][5] and communist anarchism[6][7]) is a theory of anarchism which advocates the abolition of the state, capitalism, wages and private property (while retaining respect for personal property),[8] and in favor of common ownership of the means of production,[9][10] direct democracy, and a horizontal network of voluntary associations and workers' councils with production and consumption based on the guiding principle: "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need".[11][12]


"...while retaining respect for personal property..."

If you put your soil in bags does it become personal property?

Fortunately, I was raised in a hotbed of social activism during the 60s and 70s so I was exposed to a succession of misrepresentations of excentric thought. Both at University and in the bars. Nothing it seems has changed, except that it has left the mainstream a bit, if only temporarily. The tough economic times will see to that.

To play Devil's advocate (not that it did me any good with Sounder): which State (Capitalist or Communist) will exercise more tolerance in a social experiment to "de-commodify land and labor so we can share everything equally"?

This is not intended as a rhetorical question.
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby American Dream » Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:42 am

Conspiracist Scapegoating and Right-Wing Populism

Populist Conspiracism

When conspiracism is blended with populism, the result is frequently a worldview called "producerism." Producerist movements consider the "real" patriotic Americans to be hard-working people in the middle- and working-class who create goods and wealth while fighting against "parasites" at the top and bottom of society who pick their pockets. 140

Gary Allen provides an example of producerism in his 1971 None Dare Call it Conspiracy, which included a graphic chart showing the middle-class being squeezed between the ruling elite "insiders" above, pressured by the Rothschilds, Rockefellers, and Council on Foreign Relations, and the rabble below, pressured by "naive radicals" of the left, such as SDS, the Black Panthers, the Yippies, the Young Socialist Alliance, and Common Cause.141 In 1974 Allen updated the scenario in Rockefeller: Campaigning for the New World Order, articulating the anti-globalist theme of much current conspiracism in the Patriot and armed militia movements.142 Allen's work is championed by the John Birch Society.

Producerism not only promotes scapegoating, but also has a history of assuming that a proper citizen is a White male. Historically, groups scapegoated by right-wing populist movements in the US have been immigrants and people of color, especially Blacks. Attention is diverted from inherent white supremacism by using coded language to reframe racism as a concern about specific issues, such as welfare, immigration, tax, or education policies.143 Non-Christian religions, women, gay men and lesbians, youth, students, reproductive rights activists, and environmentalists also are scapegoated.144 Sometimes producerism targets those persons who organize on behalf of impoverished and marginalized communities, especially progressive social change activists.145

The nativist and Americanist movements emerged as a way to promote a broad Christian nationalism, and a way to enforce implicitly white supremacist northern European cultural standards among increasingly diverse immigrant groups.146 Producerism played a key role in a shift from the main early mode of right-wing populist conspiracism which defended the status quo against a mob of "outsiders," originally framed as a conspiracy of Freemasons or Jews or aliens. Today, right-wing populist conspiracism targets the government and other "insiders." According to Michael Billig:

"With the replacement of the old aristocratic orders in Europe and the increasing participation of the middle classes in political life, there came a change in the themes of the conspiracy mythology. In the United States the change accompanied the threats to the hegemony of the old white Anglo-Saxon Protestant group, posed by waves of new immigrants in the middle of the nineteenth century. The conspiracy theory ceased to defend government against conspirators, but located the conspiracy within government, or more often behind government."147

Two organizations representing the nativist tradition--the John Birch Society and the Liberty Lobby--played a significant role in promoting producerism and helping it transform into populist anti-government conspiracist themes during the 1960s and 1970s.148

The John Birch Society (JBS) maintains that internationalist "insiders" with a collectivist agenda, (claimed to be behind both communism and Wall Street capitalism), are engaged in a coordinated drive to destroy national sovereignty and individualism. JBS members are primarily elitist, ultraconservative, and reformist. Its conspiracist theories do not center on scapegoating Jews and Jewish institutions, nor do they center on biological racism. In a more subtle form of racism and anti-Semitism, JBS promotes a culturally-defined WASP ethnocentrism as the true expression of America. Echoing historic producerist themes, implicit racism and anti-Semitism are intrinsic to the group's ideology, but they are not articulated as principles of unity. JBS conspiracist narrative traces back to Robison's book alleging a Illuminati Freemason conspiracy. The Society's roots are in business nationalism, economic libertarianism, anti-communism, Eurocentrism, and Christian fundamentalism.149

The Liberty Lobby's conspiracist narrative is that the secret elites are Jews (descended from non-European bloodlines) who manipulate Blacks and other people of color to destroy national unity and popular will, which derives its strength from a racially-separate organic tribalism. The Lobby is primarily populist, fascist, and insurgent. It promotes conspiracist theories that center on scapegoating Jews and Jewish institutions, and on biological racism as the basis for white supremacist xenophobia. However, through the use of coded rhetoric, and appeals to racial separatism that extol Black nationalist groups, the group attempts, with some success, to mask its core racism and anti-Semitism. The Liberty Lobby relies on historic anti-Semitic conspiracist sources that trace back to the Protocols and its many progeny. Its roots are in isolationism, small business resentment of large corporate interests, and eugenicist White racial nationalism.

The JBS and Liberty Lobby both use populist rhetoric, but JBS members distrust the idea of the sovereignty of the people, and stress that the United States is a republic not a democracy, which they dismiss as a "mobocracy." This explains how the JBS can criticize the alleged secret elites, yet retain an elitist point of view; they want to replace the "bad" elites with the "good" elites--presumably their allies. Both groups use conspiracist scapegoating, a common feature of right-wing populism. Starting in the 1970s, other branches of right-wing populist conspiracism began to grow, in the Christian Right, the Christian Identity religion, the Lyndon LaRouche network, and in both secular and religious forms of survivalism.

Populism can come from the bottom up, but it also can be deployed from the top down--used to attack the status quo by outsider business factions seeking to displace entrenched power structures. These outsider factions use populist rhetoric and conspiracist, anti-elite scapegoating to attract constituencies in the middle class and working class. As right-wing populist movements grow, they can lure mainstream politicians to adopt scapegoating, in order to attract voters. Their theories can legitimize acts of discrimination, or even violence. And reformist populist movements can open the door for insurgent right-wing movements such as fascism to recruit from their own movements by arguing that more drastic action is needed.150 Fascism itself is a distinctive form of conspiracist right-wing populism. Fascist groups are not likely to seize state power in the US (or in most countries), but can seriously damage attempts to extend democracy and equality as they encourage scapegoating and conspiracism in adaptive and creative ways while engaging in recruitment and ideological training.15

Because right-wing conspiracism so often rests on an anti-elite critique, it has been known to fool gullible leftists.152 Various Green Party activists have had to struggle against conspiracism, including the anti-Semitic variant, among members and even a handful of leaders.153 Populist conspiracism also has found a home in certain Black nationalist and Arab anti-imperialist groups.154 Libyan President Muammar Qaddafi has actually tried to unite left and right groups that oppose the US government at meetings in Tripoli, Libya.15

We must be careful to draw a distinction between critiques that extend economic and social justice, and those that claim economic privilege for middle-class consumers at the expense of social justice. Anti-regime criticism is rampant in the conspiracist right.156 There is a need to educate and thus inoculate large sectors of the white middle class and working class against the dead end of right-wing populism with its penchant for scapegoating. If we tolerate the paradigm of conspiracist scapegoating by right-wing economic populists simply because it appears to advance a short-term anti-corporate or anti-government agenda, we are creating a dangerous alliance with people whose long-term vision--wittingly or unwittingly--promotes racist, sexist, homophobic, and anti-Semitic outcomes.157 We will be throwing our long-term allies overboard and helping sink the ship of state, when we should be plotting a new course on a sturdy vessel we all help to rebuild.

This is especially true given the current period of apocalyptic anxiety and millennial energy, which infuses the Christian right, populist right, and far right.


http://www.publiceye.org/apocalyptic/Da ... _1-02.html
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby American Dream » Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:56 am

minime » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:29 am wrote:To play Devil's advocate (not that it did me any good with Sounder): which State (Capitalist or Communist) will exercise more tolerance in a social experiment to "de-commodify land and labor so we can share everything equally"?



"Capital C" Communist States such as the authoritarian regimes of North Korea and the old Albania will not tolerate dissent and are as bad as (or maybe worse than) the bloody pets of Empire notorious in Latin American and Asian history.

I think a key question here concerns what we're after- if we want to drop out in small groups, or maybe just embody a prefigurative model of what a more utopian society would look like, then the liberal bourgeoisie state may give more privileges, especially to white, middle class citizens who are not directly challenging the system itself but maybe making co-ops, community gardens, collective housing and whatnot. If there is a progressive path to social change, this all would fit nicely.

If, on the other hand, there must be more of a direct challenge to the system itself, we can not expect that the billionaires and the State will just sit idly by and let us end their game. That's why I'd say we need a mass movement, based on radical principles, that is also strategic: not too militant but neither too conciliatory- a broad movement really hitting to the root of the problem...
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby minime » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:14 pm

American Dream » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:56 am wrote:
minime » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:29 am wrote:To play Devil's advocate (not that it did me any good with Sounder): which State (Capitalist or Communist) will exercise more tolerance in a social experiment to "de-commodify land and labor so we can share everything equally"?



"Capital C" Communist States such as North Korea will not tolerate dissent and are as bad as (or maybe worse than) the bloody pets of Empire notorious in Latin American and Asian history.

I think a key question here concerns what we're after- if we want to drop out in small groups, or maybe just embody a prefigurative model of what a more utopian society would look like, then the liberal state will give more privileges, especially to white, middle class citizens who are not directly challenging the system itself but maybe making co-ops, community gardens, collective housing and whatnot. If there is a progressive path to social change, this all would fit nicely.

If, on the other hand, there must be more of a direct challenge to the system itself, we can not expect that the billionaires and the State will just sit idly by and let us end their game. That's why I'd say we need a mass movement, based on radical principles that is also strategic: not too militant but neither too conciliatory- a broad movement really hitting to the root of the problem...


The rhetoric perhaps defeats the effort.
direct challenge
radical principles
not too military
neither too conciliatory
hitting

If the first method is successful, as a small-scale trial, it will instigate and inform the second.

If the first method is not successful, the second is unwise. IMO.

If you don't build it, they will not come.
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby American Dream » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:29 pm

minime » Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:14 am wrote:
American Dream » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:56 am wrote:
minime » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:29 am wrote:To play Devil's advocate (not that it did me any good with Sounder): which State (Capitalist or Communist) will exercise more tolerance in a social experiment to "de-commodify land and labor so we can share everything equally"?



"Capital C" Communist States such as North Korea will not tolerate dissent and are as bad as (or maybe worse than) the bloody pets of Empire notorious in Latin American and Asian history.

I think a key question here concerns what we're after- if we want to drop out in small groups, or maybe just embody a prefigurative model of what a more utopian society would look like, then the liberal state will give more privileges, especially to white, middle class citizens who are not directly challenging the system itself but maybe making co-ops, community gardens, collective housing and whatnot. If there is a progressive path to social change, this all would fit nicely.

If, on the other hand, there must be more of a direct challenge to the system itself, we can not expect that the billionaires and the State will just sit idly by and let us end their game. That's why I'd say we need a mass movement, based on radical principles that is also strategic: not too militant but neither too conciliatory- a broad movement really hitting to the root of the problem...


The rhetoric perhaps defeats the effort.
direct challenge
radical principles
not too military
neither too conciliatory
hitting

If the first method is successful, as a small-scale trial, it will instigate and inform the second.

If the first method is not successful, the second is unwise. IMO.

If you don't build it, they will not come.


I'll take your critique very seriously, minime.

As to the rhetoric, it depends on the audience, no? In this case I'm assuming RI to be full of potentially radical people but I do read a lot of radical literature. I will think more about my language and how it is received by various sorts of people...

As to the first method and the second method, I'm good with all of the above and absolutely do feel that they can be complementary approaches...
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby brainpanhandler » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:19 pm

American Dream » Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:29 am wrote:
minime » Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:14 am wrote:
American Dream » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:56 am wrote:
minime » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:29 am wrote:To play Devil's advocate (not that it did me any good with Sounder): which State (Capitalist or Communist) will exercise more tolerance in a social experiment to "de-commodify land and labor so we can share everything equally"?



"Capital C" Communist States such as North Korea will not tolerate dissent and are as bad as (or maybe worse than) the bloody pets of Empire notorious in Latin American and Asian history.

I think a key question here concerns what we're after- if we want to drop out in small groups, or maybe just embody a prefigurative model of what a more utopian society would look like, then the liberal state will give more privileges, especially to white, middle class citizens who are not directly challenging the system itself but maybe making co-ops, community gardens, collective housing and whatnot. If there is a progressive path to social change, this all would fit nicely.

If, on the other hand, there must be more of a direct challenge to the system itself, we can not expect that the billionaires and the State will just sit idly by and let us end their game. That's why I'd say we need a mass movement, based on radical principles that is also strategic: not too militant but neither too conciliatory- a broad movement really hitting to the root of the problem...


The rhetoric perhaps defeats the effort.
direct challenge
radical principles
not too military
neither too conciliatory
hitting

If the first method is successful, as a small-scale trial, it will instigate and inform the second.

If the first method is not successful, the second is unwise. IMO.

If you don't build it, they will not come.



As to the first method and the second method, I'm good with all of the above and absolutely do feel that they can be complementary approaches...


I would say they MUST be complimentary approaches.

The salt march always struck me as a genius move.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_March

Ghandi wrote:Suppose, a people rise in revolt. They cannot attack the abstract constitution or lead an army against proclamations and statutes...Civil disobedience has to be directed against the salt tax or the land tax or some other particular point — not that that is our final end, but for the time being it is our aim, and we must shoot straight.[16]


But the first thing I'd like to see happen?....I just want one, just ONE, successful boycott. Fuck. How hard can that be? No batons, no teargas can stop it. Why do I so rarely see this option brought up, here or anywhere else. Why is it so hard to achieve?
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby American Dream » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:00 pm

brainpanhandler » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:19 pm wrote:
I would say they MUST be complimentary approaches.

The salt march always struck me as a genius move.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_March

Ghandi wrote:Suppose, a people rise in revolt. They cannot attack the abstract constitution or lead an army against proclamations and statutes...Civil disobedience has to be directed against the salt tax or the land tax or some other particular point — not that that is our final end, but for the time being it is our aim, and we must shoot straight.[16]


But the first thing I'd like to see happen?....I just want one, just ONE, successful boycott. Fuck. How hard can that be? No batons, no teargas can stop it. Why do I so rarely see this option brought up, here or anywhere else. Why is it so hard to achieve?


Yes, agreed. Although I am not an absolute pacifist, I respect that some people are and that this is a principle which is meaningful and useful to them. I'm so good with Dorothy Day or a Daniel Berrigan, or Mahatma Ghandi. That said, I feel there is also a place for the sort of militance that can judiciously use property destruction or self-defense.

All that said, I do think that the primary way ahead in the United States where I live is building mass movements and that means tactics like strikes, boycotts, and blockades more than it does playing cat and mouse with the cops while wearing a black ski mask...
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby minime » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:20 pm

All that said, I do think that the primary way ahead in the United States where I live is building mass movements and that means tactics like strikes, boycotts, and blockades more than it does playing cat and mouse with the cops while wearing a black ski mask...


If I were the Illuminati, I would openly advocate a similar activism, broadcast it in the mass media, and to ensure its adoption by the thoroughly prepared, tempered with the caution: "Don't attempt this in your own living room."

Then I would ask for greater funding for local, state and federal law enforcement, attach the activism to nefarious local and foreign interests, and invest in companies concentrating on surveillance and security research.

Then I would place cameras enhanced with facial recognition at all events...
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