How to Overthrow the Illuminati

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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby OP ED » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:51 pm

then it is fortunate that the illuminati do not exist.
Giustizia mosse il mio alto fattore:
fecemi la divina podestate,
la somma sapienza e 'l primo amore.

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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby minime » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:58 pm

OP ED » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:51 pm wrote:then it is fortunate that the illuminati do not exist.


Anyways, we can do all that without their help.
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby American Dream » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:04 pm

minime » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:20 pm wrote:
All that said, I do think that the primary way ahead in the United States where I live is building mass movements and that means tactics like strikes, boycotts, and blockades more than it does playing cat and mouse with the cops while wearing a black ski mask...


If I were the Illuminati, I would openly advocate a similar activism, broadcast it in the mass media, and to ensure its adoption by the thoroughly prepared, tempered with the caution: "Don't attempt this in your own living room."

Then I would ask for greater funding for local, state and federal law enforcement, attach the activism to nefarious local and foreign interests, and invest in companies concentrating on surveillance and security research.

Then I would place cameras enhanced with facial recognition at all events...


It seems like the ruling class would/should approach Black Bloc activity this way, whether or not they are part of one unified and purely evil occult lodge, ancient, mystical and all powerful- which meets in the ultimate smoky room that the rest of us aren't even allowed to know about. Even if it's assorted groupings of billionaires and high government officials that sometimes compete or see things differently, the same basic principle would apply...
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby Searcher08 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:42 pm

American Dream » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:00 pm wrote:
brainpanhandler » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:19 pm wrote:
I would say they MUST be complimentary approaches.

The salt march always struck me as a genius move.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_March

Ghandi wrote:Suppose, a people rise in revolt. They cannot attack the abstract constitution or lead an army against proclamations and statutes...Civil disobedience has to be directed against the salt tax or the land tax or some other particular point — not that that is our final end, but for the time being it is our aim, and we must shoot straight.[16]


But the first thing I'd like to see happen?....I just want one, just ONE, successful boycott. Fuck. How hard can that be? No batons, no teargas can stop it. Why do I so rarely see this option brought up, here or anywhere else. Why is it so hard to achieve?


Yes, agreed. Although I am not an absolute pacifist, I respect that some people are and that this is a principle which is meaningful and useful to them. I'm so good with Dorothy Day or a Daniel Berrigan, or Mahatma Ghandi. That said, I feel there is also a place for the sort of militance that can judiciously use property destruction or self-defense.

All that said, I do think that the primary way ahead in the United States where I live is building mass movements and that means tactics like strikes, boycotts, and blockades more than it does playing cat and mouse with the cops while wearing a black ski mask...



Go to 2:31:50 for the best visualisation of it I have seen.

A decentralised high-cybernetic variety distributed localised organisational permacultures integrated across mesh webs, decentralised food production using digital aquaculture, with emergent alignment following the first stages of societal collapse, enabling awakened activists utilizing triarchic meeting structures to surf a wave of urgent Gaia-wide focused intentionality, creative thinking and goodwill with alacrity, bringing into being in real-time a worldwide resource based economy.


Two things are going to be taken out, put up in front of a wall and shot
1) Money
2) The bullshit logic of Aristotle
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby seemslikeadream » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:44 pm

can I add

3) political solutions and talk there of
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby American Dream » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:07 pm

Zeitgeist is subject here to heavy critique, not the least of which for its solutions, which are seen as- at best- half-assed:

http://ssy.org.uk/2010/06/shitegeist/

Shitegeist


Image

If you’re the kind of person who knows there’s a lot of problems in our society, and you’re looking for solutions for what to do about it, there’s a good chance you’ve found yourself here on our blog.

There’s also a good chance you might have come across something called the Zeitgeist Movement. If you have, and you’re attracted to the ideas they put forward, this article is our attempt to argue that Zeitgeist offers no real solutions to the economic and ecological crises that human civilisation is facing. In fact, quite the opposite: instead of explaining to people how we can change our society for the better, many of the ideas put forward in the Zeitgeist films have their origins in the far right and racist groups, and they’re ideas which are both crazy and useless.

The reason we’re doing this is because we know that Zeitgeist has been really influential on thousands of people who’ve seen it online, and because we think that is potentially really damaging to the attempts (which we’re part of) to build a mass movement capable of bringing fundamental change to the world. It deliberately tries to pitch itself as an appeal to people who have a basically left wing outlook, but the ideas it puts forward about our world as it is just now are not left wing at all.

Zeitgeist got started when a man called Peter Joseph (this apparently isn’t his real or full name, as he conceals his real identity) released a documentary called, amazingly enough, Zeitgeist (which is German for Spirit of the Times) in 2007. This film was stuck up on Google video, and quickly got loads of views. This was then followed by a sequel, Zeitgeist Addendum, the following year.

The first film is an amalgamation of conspiracy theories: first of all, about religion, making all kinds of claims about the origins of Christianity; then a large middle section about 9/11, asserting that there were no terror attacks and they were in fact carried out by the US government. The final section is probably the most important for us to examine as socialists, because it’s about money and finance. It argues that the world is dominated by a small elite who operate through control of international finance, the media and education. This elite deliberately enslaves the rest of the world by keeping us permanently in debt to the banks by the way they operate the money system.

The second film then goes on to build on these economic themes, and argues for an alternative: eliminating the profit system, and creating what they call a ‘Resource Based Economy,’ where everyone in the world has access to what they need to survive for free by use of advanced technology. In many ways this society they describe is what socialism or communism would really be like in the future. The problem is that Zeitgeist specifically describes itself as a non-political movement, and offers no real plans for how to create the society. However, in the absence of actually describing itself as left wing or right wing, Zeitgeist has taken on a lot of ideas from some very dodgy sources.

Racism, anti-Semitism and the modern world

To understand where some of the ideas in Zeitgeist come from, we need to have a look first at their history.

From the 15-16th centuries onwards, the world began to be rapidly transformed by the technological and social advances that allowed European peoples to expand around the world and create colonies and empires. Explorers from European powers like Spain, Portugal, the Netherlands and England began to move into Africa, the Americas and Asia. Through the slave trade and the exploitation of mines and plantations in these new colonies, European traders became rich.

Following this, the newly enriched classes began to use their money to kickstart the industrial revolution in Europe. They also grew tired of the fact that in European societies power was still held by people who were born into the aristocracy, when they were rich and felt they should also be powerful. This led to revolutions in France and the US, and the beginning of the modern world. Over the course of the 18th-19th centuries, the pace of change increased rapidly, with huge numbers of people leaving the land and farm work to move to massive new cities and work in the factories. Traditional sources of authority and power were undermined, and many people were left confused and angered by a world that they didn’t recognise any more.

The 19th century saw the development of a mass socialist movement, as working class people began to realise that if economic and political power was taken out of the hands of the capitalists then society could be run for the benefit of all.

But other groups, particularly middle class people who had no attraction to the ideas of socialism, began to seek other explanations for why the world had changed and what to do about it. Many of these people felt that they didn’t have a place in modern society, but they also didn’t want to go back to medieval times. Unable to see the reality that the world had been changed by huge economic and social forces beyond the control of any individual, they came to blame what was wrong in society on some kind of small secret elite who were controlling things for their own benefit.

People talked about secret societies like the Illuminati or the Freemasons dominating politics and government from behind the scenes. Crucially, these ideas were tied into the idea, which was hugely powerful in the late 19th and early 20th century, that the world was fundamentally divided along racial lines. Many of these people believed there was a plot to undermine the power and dominance of “the white race”.

Racism is a set of ideas that takes older prejudices, and systematically makes them into a worldview. Contrary to what most folk think, it emerged specifically in the modern world, as a way of explaining and understanding what was happening as global society began to rapidly change. Most racialised views of different peoples made their victims out to be inferior, such as the claim black people are stupid and lazy for example.

But Jews had a long history in Christian thought as being thought of as demonic enemies. They were blamed for the killing of Jesus, and in the medieval world were regarded as clever and dangerous because they took part in trade and money lending. In the modern world Jews came to be understood by many people as some kind of absolutely monstrous Other, a huge evil threat. This was of course total nonsense, but it was a useful idea for those who couldn’t face the reality of what was going on in capitalist society, and for those in power who didn’t want people to see that reality.

Anti-Semitic ideas became to be encapsulated in the idea that there was a world Jewish conspiracy, which aimed to establish a global government under their control. They would do this by their international control of banks and money, as well as control of the media and education.

Image
An anti-Semitic cartoon shows the crazy idea
of a global Jewish conspiracy


These ideas came together in a book called The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. This was an anti-Semitic forgery put together in Russia at the turn of the 20th century, which claimed to be documents of meetings and plans of the Jewish elite to dominate the world. These documents were circulated around the world, and became particularly important after the Russian Revolution in 1917. Many, who were fooled into thinking the Protocols were real, used them as evidence that the revolution was part of the Jewish conspiracy, and that the Bolsheviks aimed to advance it. This was a huge part of why Hitler hated socialists and communists so much. But the same ideas also had massive circulation in the leading government and powerful circles of US politics, and were argued by many right wing US Congressmen and other political figures.

If it has ever confused you why right wing conspiracy nutters say they hate banks and big business, and then go on to say they hate communists and socialists who run the world, this is why. For them, communism and socialism are part of a wider conspiracy by a tiny elite to control the world. The aim of this group, they think, is to create a one world government. Whether they talk about Jews openly, or whether they restrict what they’re saying to names like “international bankers”, the origins of this idea go back to the Protocols and the mad ideas of 19th century anti-Semites.

The Protocols are a straight up work of fiction. But the ideas they put forward have surfaced again and again. Since World War Two it’s been increasingly difficult for racist groups to openly advocate anti-Semitism, because these ideas saw their ultimate expression in the slaughter of the Holocaust. Even before this, many didn’t talk openly about Jews, but instead about “international bankers”, the “secret cabal” who ran the world.

The problem with all this for socialists is obvious: financial capitalists really do hold a huge amount of power and influence over government policies, and the international ruling class does co-ordinate its actions secretly and conspiratorially to make sure that capitalism keeps working and that profits are maximised.

However, these things aren’t the result of a plot of a small group of evil men. The fact is that capitalism is a self-sustaining economic system with a life of its own. It doesn’t really matter who is at the top as long as somebody is. People find it hard to grasp the reality of the way our economic and social system works, because it’s complex and hard to understand. Put simply, capitalists don’t want to just get rich and sit back. They want to find ways they can invest profits to create more profits and keep the economy growing. That’s the driving force, not the evil desires of a small group of men. But it’s hard to get your head round that, and many people find it much easier to blame an identifiable group they can easily conceptualise, like Jews.

The 19th century German socialist August Bebel once said that “Anti-Semitism is the Socialism of fools,” because it tried to understand the causes of real problems resulting from capitalism, and instead blamed them on Jews. Throughout the 20th century, many right wingers began to see the dominance of banks and financial capital as evidence of a Jewish conspiracy. for them, this was evidence of the traditional prejudice that Jews were evil, manipulative money lenders bent on power and control.

The real reason that finance has become more and more dominant is that it’s increasingly difficult for capitalists to invest their money in something that produces stuff (like a factory) and make their money back, because after 200 odd years of capitalism the world is full of factories and stuff -- so it’s harder and harder to make new products, like cars or furniture or tools say, and make a profit from it. So instead capitalists put more of their money into banks, financial investments etc. There’s no secret to it -- it’s just about making money, and what’s the best way to go about it.

Image
Blaming others for your problems


Zeitgeist and anti-Semitic ideas

In a speech on youtube, Peter Joseph says that:

“If I find someone who’s in the KKK who has a great perspective on global finance, I’m not going to dismiss them just because they’re a racist and a bigot, I’m going to read what it is. I don’t dismiss anybody because of their beliefs because I understand that beliefs are a product of cultural conditioning.”

I find this particular quote very revealing, because it’s absolutely clear that many of the conspiracy ideas put forward in the first film do ultimately derive from the far right and anti-Semitism. Contrary to what Peter thinks, it’s very hard to take these ideas in isolation from the overarching worldview they’re actually part of.

Zeitgeist argues that banks create fictional money in order to keep us all in debt and to allow them to manipulate the economy for their own secretive control. This is at heart a restatement of the idea that there is a group of manipulative money lenders running the world. While Zeitgeist calls this group “international bankers”, the original understanding was, of course, that these people were the Jews.

I’m sure that defenders of the film would argue that they are not anti-Semites, and that the film at no point names “the jews” as responsible for the issues they raise, which is true. However, this defence falls down when you look at some of the people the film quotes prominently and approvingly. Several figures from the early 20th century are quoted for what they have to say about “international bankers.” These people were out and out racists, and we should have no doubt about who they mean when they talk about “international bankers.”

A good example of this is Louis McFadden, a racist US Congressman from 1915-23. He’s quoted at length in Zeitgeist, with his claims that “A world banking system was being set up here… a superstate controlled by international bankers acting together to enslave the world for their own pleasure…” A quote of his they don’t use “in the United States today, the Gentiles have the slips of paper while the Jews have the lawful money.” He was absolutely a product of his time, the height of scientifically and politically accepted racism, and his economic views can’t be separated from his views about Jews.

What Zeitgeist doesn’t tell you is that money is just a representation of the value created by the people that do the work in an economy. Wealth comes originally from human labour. At your work, the work you do for a part of your day makes the boss enough money to pay your wages, and the rest becomes profits. But capitalism wants to use this money to invest and make more money. The state and its economic policy isn’t a conspiracy to make a few people richer, but instead it tries to create the conditions to allow more profit to be extracted and invested. This is a part of the system we live under, and isn’t to do with a few evil individuals running things for their own benefit. In a system like ours, there will always be people at the top administering things. The point is that the system needs to be changed.

Traditional anti-Semitic accusations are given new life, this time again blamed on “international bankers” in other parts of the film as well. A prominent claim in the Protocols is that Jews deliberately start wars for their own profit. In the film, it’s argued that throughout the 20th century the US has used faked incidents, or deliberate provocations to generate excuses to enter wars, the latest being, they claim, 9/11. Now of course, there is a grain of truth in this. Some of the incidents they talk about, like the Gulf of Tonkin which was used as a pretext for the US to enter fully into the Vietnam war, probably were faked. But the film then goes on to claim that the US never intended to win the war in Vietnam, their sole interest being in the continuation of the war for profit. While wars do of course generate a lot of profit for manufacturers of weapons and war materials, the idea that the huge effort the US put into to trying to keep their own puppets in power in Vietnam was never intended to win is a joke.

However, these views of war fit in with what Peter Joseph thinks the ultimate aim of the elite is: a one world government. This is a time honoured phantom fear of the conspiracy far right, that in fact all governments in the world are being controlled by a shadowy elite behind the scenes. The film argues that the Cold War was a distraction, and that the “international bankers” controlled both sides (reinventing the old myth that the Russian Revolution was just part of a Jewish plot for global domination.) But in a world where China and Russia have made huge steps to build their own geopolitical power throughout Asia, and where countries like Brazil, Turkey, Iran or Venezuela are all actively engaged in trying to build their own international power at the expense of the US, the idea that we are headed for a global government any time soon is laughable. It is a crazy fantasy that can only be believed if you accept false evidence.

The film also talks about control of education and the media to keep people stupid and easily manipulated. Again, there’s clearly a grain of truth in this, but when coupled with a conspiracy worldview it becomes a re-telling of one of the most powerful anti-Semitic myths: that the Jews control the media, and fill our heads with propaganda.

Image
Jewsians in the media

The point here is that Zeitgeist deals with issues that have some substance to them. If you follow many leading conspiracy theorists, people like Alex Jones for example, it’s often the case that they identify things that have some reality to them. But because they can’t get their heads round the difficult concepts of what’s really going on in a complex, unpredictable global social and economic system, they look for individuals or groups to blame. They try to give the people responsible a face.

Peter Joseph, in making the first Zeitgeist film, has clearly used as much of his source material these kinds of people, and fails to identify the real reasons for the problems that the human race faces. But what’s worrying about this is that it’s packaged in a way to make it look left wing, to appeal to people who are looking for genuine solutions to capitalism and its problems. Instead of finding them, those attracted to Zeitgeist are actually being sold ideas that originate in racism and all the lies and myths of anti-Semitism.

The risks of this are there for all to see if you look back at the history of fascism. Mussolini, and Oswald Mosley who founded the British Union of Fascists, both started out involved with the left. However, they were later to move away from this and become fascists. Without clear understanding of what capitalism and what it does, it’s easy to fall back on simpler ideas that blame the wrong people. A case in point is US conspiracy theorist and all round nutcase Lyndon LaRouche, who also is quoted approvingly in Zeitgeist.

LaRouche is a prolific writer and several times candidate for President of the US. He’s also the leader of a violent cult which has been implicated in several deaths of people who got involved with it. Like fascists before him, LaRouche started out involved with the left, but became more and more right wing as the years went by, and now peddles anti-Semitic lies, as well as approvingly quoting Saddam Hussein in his publications. One case of how dangerous his movement can be is the mysterious death of Jeremiah Duggan who got involved with them, but at a conference revealed himself to be Jewish. After a panicked phone call to his Mum, he was found dead the next morning. The LaRouchites claim he committed suicide.

Now to be clear, I’m not claiming that the Zeitgeist movement has killed people, or that Peter Joseph is a Hitler in waiting. What I’m saying is that if you’re looking to do something about changing society, starting off with folk who think quoting fascists, racists and anti-Semites as part of their case isn’t the way to go.

Zeitgeist 2: Star Trek solutions

If you try and engage Zeitgeist activists about these issues, in all likelihood they will say something along the lines of “Well, we don’t promote the first film any more, we’ve moved on to new things.” Sometime between the making of the first and second films, Peter Joseph came into contact with Jacques Fresco, a designer and engineer who has a series of plans for improving society which he calls the Venus Project. Zeitgeist now describes itself as “the activist wing of the Venus Project.” Privately, some are trying to distance themselves from some of the material in the first film, but officially it is still promoted on the main page when you google Zeitgeist, and remains most people’s introduction to the movement.

The Venus Project advocates what it calls a “resource based economy”, arguing that there are enough resources in the world to provide everyone with a decent standard of living. The problem they argue is that capitalism deliberately makes resources scarce in order to make a profit. So far this is definitely something socialists could agree with. The project goes on to present a whole series of exciting looking sci fi style drawings of what the high tech future they propose will look like, which are strangely retro and remind you of concept art for 60s sci fi shows.

Image
Thunderbirds are Go!: the future according to the Venus Project

I absolutely support the idea of a society with no money where all your basic needs are met for free. That’s the future I’m fighting for. But the way that we go about this in SSY and the SSP is to try and build change in the here and now, trying to win people to socialist ideas by making concrete changes to peoples lives now. If I were to go out on the street today and start handing out leaflets that said “We want to abolish money and make everything free” then most people would dismiss us as crazy. Unfortunately, it’s not possible to just wish a new society into existence; it has to be built patiently by the collective co-operation and work of masses of people.

The Zeitgeist movement don’t seem to agree. They argue that all our problems can be solved by scientists, and explicitly say they reject politics or a political movement. In effect what they argue for is a technocracy, at least at first. That means that what happens in society will be determined by a scientific elite. Jacques Fresco argues that politicians now are incapable of implementing solutions because they don’t have the right expertise, and only say what they think will get them elected. But the solution to this isn’t a society run by “experts”, but the implementation of mass democracy, and the opening up of education and the media to allow people to develop themselves. I think this is probably what Zeitgeist members would eventually like to see, but the point is, to make it possible it’s necessary to struggle and win what we can.

This isn’t to say that many of the technologies advocated by the Venus Project/Zeitgeist couldn’t play a really important role in a better society. But in focusing just on technological changes, they ignore that technology is a part of society, not the root of it. If all our problems could be solved with technology, then the ancient Egyptians would have developed steam engines. They had all the knowledge necessary to do so, but they didn’t because their society was based on slavery, and as long as there were plenty of slaves and peasants to do the work, who needed steam power? More to the point, their kind of society wasn’t expanding economically in the same way capitalism does, so there was no need for a technology capable of unleashing an industrial revolution. So nobody ever followed through the theoretical knowledge into practice. Steam engines were invented when human society was ready to use them and needed them.

Similarly today, we won’t convert our energy supply to renewables or start using environmentally friendly technology exclusively, because our society is still based on economic growth and making money. For these technologies to be part of the solution, they need to be accompanied by socio-economic changes to the way the world works, and to do that we need to politically defeat the ruling class.

The politics that Zeitgeist does promote are essentially that you boycott aspects of society they don’t like: don’t open an account with the the three biggest banks in the US (but implying that an account with another bank is in some way better?) and boycott energy companies by taking your house off the grid, for example. What this ignores is that for working class people forced to work long hours for low pay, putting a wing turbine in your garden just isn’t something they can afford in time or money. Boyotts are individual actions, where as socialists argue for a collective response to social problems, where we struggle for the power to make solutions like renewable energy available for everyone.

Zeitgeist activists argue that they are just trying to “raise awareness” of the technical solutions available to our problems. But the fact is most people know on some instinctive level that things can be better than the way they are. The problem is, they have a better understanding of power and the state than most Zeitgeist activists do. They know that if you start trying to live outside the money system and move past capitalism, then the capitalists will use their real power to try and stop you. They have money, legal authority and armed force. They’ve used all these things every time people have tried to move beyond capitalism, from the Russian revolution to the Bolivarian revolution in Venezuela today. That doesn’t mean we should give up, but it does mean we should be prepared for the very real fight we have on our hands with the people in power. “Raising awareness” will not be enough to win that fight.

Noam Chomsky has summed up the problems with Zeitgeist Addendum well when he says:

“I don’t regard the Zeitgeist Movement as an activist movement. Rather, it seems to me a very passive movement that is misled by documents that have a very pleasant sound, but collapse on analysis. Among them is the idea that we should ’stop supporting the system’ and ‘not fight it’, that is, seek to change and overcome it. That means we should withdraw into passivity. Nothing could be more welcome to those in power. My feeling is that however sincere the leaders and participants may be, the movement is seriously misguided. It is not leading towards change, but is undermining it by encouraging passivity and withdrawal from engagement, and offering a false sense that some real alternative is being proposed, except in terms so vague and divorced from reality as to be virtually meaningless.”


Miscellaneous problems with Zeitgeist

Image
Horus takes Peter Joseph by the hand and points out all the hieroglyphs
that show him to be TOTALLY DIFFERENT to Jesus


Peter Joseph has expressed scepticism about the reality of climate change, arguing that Zeitgeist should not base its arguments on something that “might not be true.” If anything undermines their claim to be based on scientific ideas it’s this. But it does fit in with the relationship that Zeitgeist activists maintain with other conspiracy groups maintain like We Are Change. To most folk the idea that the entire scientific community is engaged in a gigantic fraud to lie about the climate is madness, but it seems plausible if you already believe that the government carried out 9/11, the world is run by “international bankers” etc.

The opening section of the first film, about the use of earlier myths by Christianity to create a fictional story of a historical Jesus as fact, is not that important to the political implications of the movement as a whole. But it does show up how the ideas of Zeitgeist are a mixed up mishmash of stuff from all over the place, as it’s riddled with inaccuracies about ancient religions, such as claiming the Egyptian God Horus was a Sun God, born of a Virgin on December 25th (each one of these claims is just blatantly not true.)

And if all of the above hasn’t convinved you that Zeitgeist is a load of pish, then consider this. It has attracted the endorsement of someone who has made himself a bit of a laughing stock by his increasingly outlandish public claims, and who is a damaged product of the British celebrity circuit. I’m talking of course about. . .Robbie Williams!


Bonus: For more on Zeitgeist, I highly recommend this article, which was very helpful writing it.
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby seemslikeadream » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:20 pm

Oh god ...not my Billy...is nothing sacred around here?



Image

it's the means that has me spooked
it takes an unknown truth to get out
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby Searcher08 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:01 pm

AD,
Give me a FUCKING BREAK.
You could have responded to what I actually wrote, which was, btw, NOT in favour of TZM, (which I'm not) - it included a link reporting a VISUALISATION (ie a film clip) of how what bph was referring to might LOOK LIKE.

What do I get? A pile of fucking COPYPASTA about... Anti-Fucking Semitism

I also must say you posted this before - that picture is truly one of the most disgusting things you have ever posted on RI. The energy behind it is absolutely vile. I said so at the time. Shame on you. I feel shat on.
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby OP ED » Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:09 pm

bleh. its sad that bph's thoughts made you think of zeitgeist first. eww.
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fecemi la divina podestate,
la somma sapienza e 'l primo amore.

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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby Sounder » Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:41 pm

minime wrote...
I find it a little deflating that AD, one of the most prolific members of the forum, should have not made it clear, after years of effort, to Sounder and Wombaticus Rex, two of the most intelligent people on the forum, and longtime interlocutors, what the basic tenets of his beliefs are.

So, I was exhorting him to do so.


Thank-you so much minime for breaking up a bit of the ice round these parts.

My impression has been that the purpose of statist Communism has always been stateless communism, beginning with Marx and ending with the ferryman. The issue is the philosophy certainly... moreso the implementation.

Since AD and Mamos206 do not have the option presently of implementing stateless communism without the hindrance of the State, and since, once implemented, the State will have of withered away... the process--AD's version of the attempt to "de-commodify land and labor so we can share everything equally, with no state over us"--is what interests me here.

Yes, the process; the means determine the ends.

AD wrote…
As to what to do now- that's a lot easier than seeing into the future and divining a perfect plan all the way to Total Liberation.


The category ‘Total Liberation’, to my mind seems both unnecessary and presumptuous.

Why do people think that life should be no struggle at all?

Dignity would seem to be the more relevant category.

As to what to do now? No it’s not easy, cause what you insist on continuing to do is to use cut-and-paste material and consider that to be adequate as a response to other posters.

Ok, tone it down. Try this, I am part of the actual proletariat and do not have the time to read the volumous writing of (bolshie) folk whose fundamental assumptions I disagree with.

Minime wrote…
"...while retaining respect for personal property..."

If you put your soil in bags does it become personal property?

Fortunately, I was raised in a hotbed of social activism during the 60s and 70s so I was exposed to a succession of misrepresentations of excentric thought. Both at University and in the bars. Nothing it seems has changed, except that it has left the mainstream a bit, if only temporarily. The tough economic times will see to that.


Amen


To play Devil's advocate (not that it did me any good with Sounder): which State (Capitalist or Communist) will exercise more tolerance in a social experiment to "de-commodify land and labor so we can share everything equally"?

This is not intended as a rhetorical question.


I do miss a lot.

AD wrote…
"Capital C" Communist States such as North Korea will not tolerate dissent and are as bad as (or maybe worse than) the bloody pets of Empire notorious in Latin American and Asian history.


AD wrote...
I think a key question here concerns what we're after- if we want to drop out in small groups, or maybe just embody a prefigurative model of what a more utopian society would look like, then the liberal state will give more privileges, especially to white, middle class citizens who are not directly challenging the system itself but maybe making co-ops, community gardens, collective housing and whatnot. If there is a progressive path to social change, this all would fit nicely.

If, on the other hand, there must be more of a direct challenge to the system itself, we can not expect that the billionaires and the State will just sit idly by and let us end their game.


I vote for ‘embody a prefigurative model’, without the just in there, which strikes me as an unconscious attempt to diminutize the words that follow.

So, and still on the other hand, there must indeed be ‘more of a direct challenge to the system itself’, and my argument lo these long years is that ‘your’ way is no challenge to the system at all because pushing polarity or pumping the dichotomy is the system.

No, you are right, they will not sit idly by, but please remember, they have many guns and many of them would think it an honor to kill you.

That's why I'd say we need a mass movement, based on radical principles that is also strategic: not too militant but neither too conciliatory- a broad movement really hitting to the root of the problem...


Yes we need a mass movement, but your principles are derivative and not at all radical, you use strategy poorly (thank god), while using a battle narrative that is the root of the problem.

minime wrote...
The rhetoric perhaps defeats the effort.
direct challenge
radical principles
not too military
neither too conciliatory
hitting

If the first method is successful, as a small-scale trial, it will instigate and inform the second.

If the first method is not successful, the second is unwise. IMO.

If you don't build it, they will not come.

AD wrote...
I'll take your critique very seriously, minime.

As to the rhetoric, it depends on the audience, no? In this case I'm assuming RI to be full of potentially radical people but I do read a lot of radical literature. I will think more about my language and how it is received by various sorts of people...


Yes please AD, it depends on the audience. You see things through the lens of your conditioning (you are even proud of your conditioning) and that has told you for a long time that you are a radical.

You might do yourself a favor sometime and consider the notion that you are not radical at all.

In the mean time, I thank-you for the service you render by being such a fine example of western exceptionalist thinking.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby American Dream » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:09 pm

Sounder, I don't think you have any idea who I am, what my process of personal evolution has been- and currently is. So more than speaking to me you seem to be speaking to phantoms of your own creation, spurred perhaps by the critique of Zeitgeist.. You assume too much- and impose on me a static state when you really don't understand who I am at all.

That said, I have to admit I don't really understand what it means for you when you say, "So, and still on the other hand, there must indeed be ‘more of a direct challenge to the system itself’, and my argument lo these long years is that ‘your’ way is no challenge to the system at all because pushing polarity or pumping the dichotomy is the system."

OK, so what does this mean for you about how we deal with the reality that the world is so fucked up? Especially when you say:

"No, you are right, they will not sit idly by, but please remember, they have many guns and many of them would think it an honor to kill you".

So you say you like prefigurative politics and you don't like polarizing actions, what then is the path forward that you see?
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby American Dream » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:24 pm

Searcher, I know it must be hard for you that some socialists in Scotland have some really negative opinions of things that are happening in conspiracy land but you are not going to shame me for posting articles that point out that some people in our world traffic in racist trash and other misguided, reactionary ideas. If anything, you should be the one who is ashamed- not me...
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby Elvis » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:39 pm

American Dream » Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:39 am wrote:
Elvis » Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:57 pm wrote:
What I'm saying is, I can't understand why you'd bolster your point with a weak thesis condemning yoga and environmentalism (etc.) as evil facets of a racist "movement" led by David Icke. The authors are either incredibly sloppy thinkers and researchers, or plain dishonest. Their real targets seem to be everything 'alternative', linking them all -- yoga, environmentalism etc. -- with David Icke and the racist right; I'm surprised that doesn't offend you.

To answer your question, I think Icke veers all over the road and there's no question that he picks up far-right kooks and "Hitler-not-such-a-bad-guy" nutcases. My advice to friends is to stay away from that bathwater. Landing in his forum on some unrelated Google search, I was just astonished that those poisonous posters are allowed to continue there (I don't know what the moderation policies are, if any, but that short visit gave me added appreciation of the moderating principles here on this forum).

So I'm with you on the need to discern racism when it comes in pretty packages, but let's also discern the value of our sources when exposing it. I think you've made your case sufficiently without resorting to articles like the one above and the pathetically inconsequential "Consprituality" piece.


Hey Elvis-

This is a quote about some other critics of right wingy New Age/ecology/conspiracy blends but I thought of your (legitimate) concerns when I read it:

The narrow rationality exemplified in Biehl’s and Staudenmaier’s text, and their lack of distinction between the opportunistic exploitation by rightists of ecological concerns and sensibilities, and the causes and concerns themselves, turns a potentially important work into a mixture of insight and sectarian folly. We undermine our capacity to expose and neutralize fascist ecomysticism when we label all ecomysticism as fascist; we surrender the terrain to fascist and authoritarian spiritual obscurantism by failing to comprehend the deep human need to embrace spirit. As Joel Kovel has argued eloquently, spirituality is not simply a false or alienated response to class oppression but is rooted ontologically in human being itself — in ‘the general predicament of our species: general discontinuity with the rest of being,’ and ‘the opaque mystery of consciousness.’ It is powerful because it is an ‘interrogation of being from the standpoint of nonbeing [with] no discrete answer to the interrogation and therefore no prescribed spirituality…’

— David Watson, Swamp Fever, Primitivism and the “Ideological Vortex”


Thank you, good points there. Narrow rationality is a good characterization of those "conspiracy stew" articles that so grossly simplify broad arrays of diverse and complicated interests. Sometimes it's just a lazy writer producing a puff piece, but frequently there's an agenda behind it, usually with the aim of, in one way or another, preserving the status quo.
“The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.” ― Joan Robinson
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby American Dream » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:40 pm

Nationally syndicated radio talk radio show host Alex Jones and his followers believe that the U.S. government is run by evil Pagan occultists with a plan to kill off most of the Earth’s human population as a mass human sacrifice to ancient gods. And he has written, on his prisonplanet.com website, that "the Pagans, the Wiccans and the Druids" are a "new religion of death,” “spreading with little protest while Christianity is riddled with infiltration and corruption, fostered by the same elite who belong to these new age cults."

Here in New York City, Alex Jones’s anti-Pagan bigotry is confined to the Internet and shortwave radio, whereas he can be heard on quite a few AM/FM stations in the Bible Belt. Yet, even here in New York City, there are people who promote Alex Jones.

His promoters aren’t just fundamentalist Christian religious right wingers, as one might expect them to be. His promoters, here in New York City, are active in nonreligious political causes such as the 9/11 Truth movement. Ideologies similar to Jones’s, involving claims about “the Illuminati,” are also promoted on the fringes of otherwise progressive political movements such as the anti-war movement and the anti-torture movement, and in popular culture, e.g. some hip hop lyrics.

“Illuminati” claims are very similar to The Protocols of the Elders of Zion , a notorious anti-Jewish forgery produced by the Russian secret police back in the 1890's. However, instead of Jews, “the Illuminati” are usually alleged to be atheists, “Satanists,” occultists, and/or Pagans. “The Illuminati” are alleged to be the secret rulers of the world, and they are alleged to practice human sacrifice and other ritual atrocities on a massive scale. Some folks have even claimed that the 9/11 attacks were a “Wiccan” human sacrifice! “Illuminati” claims are often accompanied by other false claims, e.g. about the Federal Reserve System, based on writings of notorious Jew-haters such as Eustace Mullins.

Progressive political movements, such as feminism, the gay rights movement, and the environmentalist movement, are alleged to be plots by “the Illuminati” to destroy civilization. Thus, “Illuminati” claims are an attack on the humanistic values of modern secular democratic society, as well as an attack on the specific religious minorities that are scapegoated and demonized - in much the same way that The Protocols of the Elders of Zion were intended as a royalist attack on democracy, as well as an attack on Jews.

At the present time, here in the U.S.A., “Illuminati” claims are largely confined to the political fringes. But, even now, believers in “Illuminati” claims play a key role in more prominent forms of organized bigotry. For example, major religious right wing leaders such as Pat Robertson and Tim LaHaye have espoused "Illuminati" claims. Belief in “Illuminati” claims can inspire fanatical devotion to bigoted political movements such as the religious right wing, in much the same way that The Protocols of the Elders of Zion fueled Nazi hatred of Jews. Hence the spread of “Illuminati” claims outside the religious right wing may be a serious potential longterm threat to Pagans and to the other minorities that are vilified.


http://nyarbb.com/casp/pdf/leaflet-Pagan-AJ-nyarbb.htm
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby 8bitagent » Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:05 am

I was hoping to go forever without ever hearing that dreadful Zeitgeist mockumentary referenced again:)
Last edited by 8bitagent on Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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