How to Overthrow the Illuminati

[seemslikeadream]

but am I wrong about you posting about it for the rest of our lives here?

[American Dream]

Thanks for the considered reply, AD. We're on a broadly similar page - isn't it about time we came up with some viable remedies to retire those in charge? I fancy a big ol' change. One thought - if we could find a way to turn the ridicule and mockery heaped upon the conspiracy community back upon the System itself - a potent weapon that could have a profound effect, as demonstrated on the very pages of this thread - it might be a point to consider 'weaponising'. Physical action will simply beget reactionary physical action - whereas changing mental attitudes can resolve issues without recourse to violence. I don't like violence.

Yes- I am not a violent person, either. And I think the best way the conspiracy community can play a positive and powerful role in making the world better is to get our shit straight: to question the sketchy claims, misinformation and disinformation that are rife on the Intertubes- and also in books...

[American Dream]

slad, I ask this sincerely, with respect and concern for you as well as myself:

If it tortures you so much to be part of this, why are you so attracted to it?

[Wombaticus Rex]

I'll explain myself as best as I can. This thread title is 'How to Overthrow the Illuminati'. But actually, it wasn't a discussion about that at all, it was a piece saying "don't believe in the Illuminati, because if you do, you are an anti-semite and an idiot".

That's....actually a pretty fair summation of that OP. Also, "Read Marx."

[seemslikeadream]

slad, I ask this sincerely, with respect and concern for you as well as myself:

If it tortures you so much to be part of this, why are you so attracted to it?

Do you really think I am tortured by this ...really...tortured?

I have been literally tortured in my life ...so no I am not tortured...just extremely amused by AD's petty obsession

Fukushima is torture.... AD's rantings amusing

you must know by now I do think of/post about really important stuff and AD's posts are like a fly buzzing around my head..I just can't help swatting at it


but I do take offense to the accusatory anti-semite shit

[American Dream]

slad, I ask this sincerely, with respect and concern for you as well as myself:

If it tortures you so much to be part of this, why are you so attracted to it?

Do you really think I am tortured by this ...really...tortured?

I have been literally tortured in my life ...so no I am not tortured...just extremely amused by AD's petty obsession

Fukushima is torture.... AD's rantings amusing

you must know by now I do think of/post about really important stuff and AD's posts are like a fly buzzing around my head..I just can't help swatting at it

I knew almost nothing about you- had no idea you were a torture survivor.

I wish you the best.

[seemslikeadream]

of course you know nothing about me ...except maybe at this point how I hate petty shit

and please refrain from the labels

[American Dream]

Also, "Read Marx."

Made me think of this:

Boogie jive and rap is life where I'm from
Where I'm from, Ahmed play with Izzy where I'm from
Where I'm from, it be like run your coat black
Jupiter, keeps her fat beats by the pack
Where I'm from, nappy hair is life
We be reading Marx where I'm from

--Digable Planets

[Wombaticus Rex]

Hell yeah. You listen to Shabazz Palaces, AD? Butterfly's new project, fairly amazing stuff and very different from the afro-hippie jazz vibe Digable Planets was on.

Boots Riley won't change his tune anytime soon, though: a stalwart of socialist rappery.

[American Dream]

Hell yeah. You listen to Shabazz Palaces, AD? Butterfly's new project, fairly amazing stuff and very different from the afro-hippie jazz vibe Digable Planets was on.

Boots Riley won't change his tune anytime soon, though: a stalwart of socialist rappery.

No- never heard Shabazz Palaces till just now- had seen that they had gigs, didn't realize who they are. And on Sub Pop, no less!

Boots Riley- yeah one gets a clear vibe of militant, grassroots, class struggle but next to nothing of that annoying orthodox marxist-leninist rigidity, the smug dogma of the self-appointed vanguard- none of that..

[Wombaticus Rex]

Agreed, he's a perfect example of Communism sans Authoritarian Personality Cult.

What are your thoughts on capitalism, and do you see democratic socialism as a viable alternative to capitalism?

It depends what you mean by democratic socialism. I always say that I'm a communist. And one way that you can define communism is that it's democracy, but it’s not just that the people get to decide who pretends to represent them but it’s that there's democratic control over the profits we create. That means that you have control over the wealth and therefore own the means of production, so that would be way more democratic.

[brainpanhandler]

I stated that you misconstrued my words to mean something I had not said or written.

Once more for posterity, "I brand no one. Icke has branded himself, imo. Once again for the reading challenged is what I wrote,: "I feel Icke is worthless and unworthy of discussion here. Obviously, slad, sounder, slim, perhaps coffin_dodger and maybe our new addition, minime feel otherwise and find some comfort in his words and character. Icke is a classic huckster of time immemorial."

From that you got, "Well... actually... now you've branded, obviously, slad, sounder, slim and 'perhaps' myself as anti-semitic, nazi, lizard-fearing Holocaust deniers, I feels it's not unreasonable to ask you to justify how you arrived at that conclusion, if that's ok with you."

Now if that's not a profound example of your failure to comprehend my words, to so poorly misinterpret them, I don't know what could be a better example. To so sorely and intentionally misrepresent what I actually wrote would be considered by me to be a much greater offense then a mere misunderstanding of my written words. I feel it's not unreasonable to ask you to justify how you arrived at that conclusion, so how did you get that from what I wrote?

Seems to me you had joined in on the AD pile-on. Perhaps I was mistaken. I did ask you to clarify for us your feelings about Icke, which would be helpful to all to know. You want to send me away to search for something that I now suppose does not exist. This is how you help others to come to understand your viewpoint?

slad, I have no idea what TIA is supposed to represent. Do you really feel I've labeled you as c_d claims? If you do, that's your problem, you're fantasizing.

Now if your finished bickering like children, it would be helpful if coffin_dodger shares with us their view on Icke. I've shared mine.

I'll explain myself as best as I can. This thread title is 'How to Overthrow the Illuminati'. But actually, it wasn't a discussion about that at all, it was a piece saying "don't believe in the Illuminati, because if you do, you are an anti-semite and an idiot".

I do not believe that 'Capitalism' is an organic entity with a life of it's own, randomly mutating, twisting and turning it's way towards an unknown goal. One need only take a cursory look at the banking and financial system to appreciate that particular belief is open to highly critical analysis.

I do believe that there are a group of people, mostly from Europe, some now influential in the USA, that have undue power and influence over the way the world goes about it's business, the direction it takes and what gets done - and what doesn't.

The dissonance here at RI is sometimes perplexing. The term 'elites' and 'tptb' are readily accepted here and understood by all. But it's a fairly subjective form. It's fluffy - possibly an abstract that helps people come to terms with their powerlessness by enabling a finger to be pointed elsewhere. There are rarely names attached to the 'elite' - it's a figure of speech to collectively 'band together' a group of form, but little substance.

However, any mention of Illuminati (one avenue of actually tackling exactly who the 'elites' might be) is met, instantly, with mocking and derision. Not only that, the charge of anti-semetism (one of the greatest taboos in Western Society) is immediately inferred, if not outright stated. And this isn't members of the (possible) Illuminati doing the mocking and deriding and deflection - it's non-vested-interest commoners who are in the shit with rest of us!

I don't profess to know who the Illuminati (or whatever they are called) are. What I do know, from reading this site for many years - and seeing with my own eyes the exposure of so many System secrets hinted at, then fully exposed, is that there are certain places that our societies have been conditioned not to look. Anywhere that I am told not to look (especially those rigidly enforced by the System memes adopted by the public) makes me very suspicious.

I suspect that the Illuminati, if they exist, are not who we have been led to believe they are. I think their nationality is unimportant, even within their own ranks - because they see themselves as 'stewards of the world' - but their actions and it's consequences are important. The revolt at anti-semetism, the memories of the Holocaust and the charge of Nazism are extremely powerful barriers that any secret society, whatever their nationality, could concievably be used to hide themselves behind from further enquiries.

So, the question 'who actually runs the world' seems preposterous to many here, because of course, we're all logical and rational thinkers, taught to think that way by the 'socio-economic soup' in which we live. The question is preposterous and cannot be the case, because, as a rational and logical thinker living in the 'real world' - we would know more about it - if there were any truth in it. But it could equally be argued that most of us know less than we might about 'who runs the world' because we do not allow ourselves to ask the question, due, mainly, to the current paradigm methods of quelling any further specific investigation into it - ridicule, stupidity, accusations of racism, to name but a few.

Anyway, as I've stated before here, I suspect that Greenwald and Wikileaks (and many more whistleblowers, yet to realise they are such) are/will be in receipt of documents that will shed new light on the inner workings and machinations of the power structure of The System. They will continue to stagger the release of any critical documents to avoid not only information overload, but public incredulity at what these documents contain. I'm an onlooker these days, greeting each new revelation with excitement and pondering on what comes next.

Looking around me, my intuition tells me that the die has already been cast for massive social change - it's under whose 'guiding hand' that we get from here to there that compels me to question the System-generated memes that I consider relevent.

But you didn't answer the questions:

"I feel Icke is worthless and unworthy of discussion here. Obviously, slad, sounder, slim, perhaps coffin_dodger and maybe our new addition, minime feel otherwise and find some comfort in his words and character. Icke is a classic huckster of time immemorial."

From that you got, "Well... actually... now you've branded, obviously, slad, sounder, slim and 'perhaps' myself as anti-semitic, nazi, lizard-fearing Holocaust deniers, I feels it's not unreasonable to ask you to justify how you arrived at that conclusion, if that's ok with you."

...

it would be helpful if coffin_dodger shares with us their view on Icke.

I'll explain myself as best as I can. This thread title is 'How to Overthrow the Illuminati'. But actually, it wasn't a discussion about that at all, it was a piece saying "don't believe in the Illuminati, because if you do, you are an anti-semite and an idiot".

I just reread the op pamphlet and it says nothing of the sort. It mentions a few anti-semitic strains of illuminati theory as it traces it's varied, convoluted history and arrives at the conclusion that setting up a bogeyman that has no tangible basis in reality is counterproductive to the goal of seeking equality, dignity, freedom and justice.

It does not say that anyone that believes illuminati theory is an anti-semite and an idiot.

I do not believe that 'Capitalism' is an organic entity with a life of it's own, randomly mutating, twisting and turning it's way towards an unknown goal.

Neither do the authors of the op article. (did you read it?)

One need only take a cursory look at the banking and financial system to appreciate that particular belief is open to highly critical analysis.

The authors do not argue there is no agency behind the capitalist class system. They are writing from a Marxian perspective. It would be helpful to your understanding to run through a primer if possible. Wiki is probably as good a place as any to start.

I do believe that there are a group of people, mostly from Europe, some now influential in the USA, that have undue power and influence over the way the world goes about it's business, the direction it takes and what gets done - and what doesn't.

Why not name the "group of people"? I myself would just call them the 1% ownership class. And yes, since capital accumulates, this class is self perpetuating and has historical roots. There are fortunes that exist today that have their origins centuries in the past, perhaps even further back. That would be an interesting study. What is the oldest pile of capital accumulation in existence today?

The dissonance here at RI is sometimes perplexing. The term 'elites' and 'tptb' are readily accepted here and understood by all. But it's a fairly subjective form.

I think everyone here that uses those terms understands that.

It's fluffy - possibly an abstract that helps people come to terms with their powerlessness by enabling a finger to be pointed elsewhere.

You sound like the authors of the op article.

There are rarely names attached to the 'elite'

Indeed, at least as the term "elite" is used by some.

"I do believe that there are a group of people, mostly from Europe"

So who are the group of mostly european people that have undue power and influence over the way the world goes about it's business, the direction it takes and what gets done - and what doesn't."?

it's a figure of speech to collectively 'band together' a group of form, but little substance.

Agreed, but tptb has the virtue of not having the baggage that goes along with illuminati theory. Surely you can understand this.

However, any mention of Illuminati (one avenue of actually tackling exactly who the 'elites' might be) is met, instantly, with mocking and derision. Not only that, the charge of anti-semetism (one of the greatest taboos in Western Society) is immediately inferred, if not outright stated.

Oops. Guess not. I don't agree with and endorse everything written in the op article, but it does a half way decent job of sketching the rough outlines of the origins and history of illuminati theory. (did you read it?)

And this isn't members of the (possible) Illuminati doing the mocking and deriding and deflection - it's non-vested-interest commoners who are in the shit with rest of us!

Because we do not see illuminati theory as a way out of the shit. We see it as an impediment to getting out of the shit! ffs!

I don't profess to know who the Illuminati (or whatever they are called) are.

What about your group of mostly european people?

What I do know, from reading this site for many years - and seeing with my own eyes the exposure of so many System secrets hinted at, then fully exposed, is that there are certain places that our societies have been conditioned not to look.

Indeed. Marx has been radically distorted in the west. You might want to look there.

Anywhere that I am told not to look (especially those rigidly enforced by the System memes adopted by the public) makes me very suspicious.

Can you give us an example?

I suspect that the Illuminati, if they exist, are not who we have been led to believe they are.

By whom? The illuminati is a catchall phrase that has been used by many disparate groups in different times and places to finger the evil demons behind the misery of the world. Who is the "we" you refer to? It's a fairly small subset of society that thinks about illuminati theory at all, whether it's to entertain it or debunk it.

I think their nationality is unimportant, even within their own ranks - because they see themselves as 'stewards of the world' - but their actions and it's consequences are important.

Now you sound like you know who they are. The actions of the 1% have very real, demonstrable consequences and WE KNOW WHO THEY ARE!

The revolt at anti-semetism, the memories of the Holocaust and the charge of Nazism are extremely powerful barriers that any secret society, whatever their nationality, could concievably be used to hide themselves behind from further enquiries.

Sure. But there is clearly and unequivocally a strain of anti-semiticism associated with illuminati theory. That is irrefutable.

So, the question 'who actually runs the world' seems preposterous to many here, because of course, we're all logical and rational thinkers, taught to think that way by the 'socio-economic soup' in which we live.

No it isn't. I'll bet if we polled the membership here there would be very few who would think that question "preposterous". What many here consider pure conjecture is that there is an all powerful cabal at the top of the pyramid that controls everything. Count me among them. I can fight the enemy I know. I cannot fight an an abstraction.

The question is preposterous and cannot be the case, because, as a rational and logical thinker living in the 'real world' - we would know more about it - if there were any truth in it.

Nonsense. Why put quotation marks around real world ffs? What world do you live in? If there is some ubersecret cabal, then, yeah, by definition it's secret and we don't know about it. My objection is practical. First of all it's a non-falsifiable theory. Second, it keeps people looking for an eneemy that may or may not exist instead of organizing in the "real world" against enemies that are every bit as evil as any form of the illuminati ever conceived of and are easily known and identified.

But it could equally be argued that most of us know less than we might about 'who runs the world' because we do not allow ourselves to ask the question, due, mainly, to the current paradigm methods of quelling any further specific investigation into it - ridicule, stupidity, accusations of racism, to name but a few.

Why swim in a toxic soup like illuminati theory when there are clearer paths to knowledge about who runs the world for a profit at the expense of everyone else? Why? Cause it's spooky and scary and you can project whatever evil onto it you wish and get all cryptic about it. Fuck. People are starving. People are being enslaved, denied medical care, disenfranchised, kicked out of their homes, smashed with batons, pepper sprayed, jailed by the millions, spied upon from cradle to grave, murdered, blown to bits, gassed, irradiated, tortured, exploited.... ad nauseum. And we know who they are!

See: http://rigorousintuition.ca/board2/view ... lit=filthy

Anyway, as I've stated before here, I suspect that Greenwald and Wikileaks (and many more whistleblowers, yet to realise they are such) are/will be in receipt of documents that will shed new light on the inner workings and machinations of the power structure of The System. They will continue to stagger the release of any critical documents to avoid not only information overload, but public incredulity at what these documents contain.

There will always be public incredulity when the curtain is pulled back. It's too horrifying to contemplate. But illuminati theory sure ain't going to make the truth clearer or more acceptable. It obfuscates and pollutes. It's counter productive.

I'm an onlooker these days, greeting each new revelation with excitement and pondering on what comes next.

This isn't a reality show.

Looking around me, my intuition tells me that the die has already been cast for massive social change

That is inevitable because the way we live now is unsustainable.

- it's under whose 'guiding hand' that we get from here to there that compels me to question the System-generated memes that I consider relevent.

See. It's this sort of cryptic crapola that is useless. What does that mean? Are you saying that there is a guiding hand that will produce massive social change? It seems like that is what you are saying. If so, elaborate.

The ownership classes are composed of sociopathic elements in competition with one another for power and resources. They also sometimes form alliances. Capital and power have been reaccumulating recently into fewer and fewer hands. And they will stop at nothing to keep their power and influence. They will kill us en masse if necessary. And frequently do in one form or another. This is a cycle that has repeated itself many, many times.

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. - Santayana


At the very least attempt a thorough study of the history of illuminati theory so you know what sort of soup you are swimming in. Is that so much to ask?

[Searcher08]

A personal, purely subjective take:
I read that in game theory 'tit-for-tat' can often be the optimal strategy at reducing conflict, assuming both sides are willing to do reduce...

In my opinion, you yourself have experienced the effects of a CopyPasta deluge; of argument by cartoon; discussion by cliche; of someone focusing on one area relentlessly and diverting all attention there; of having good well thought comments ignored; of being pissed off by it all and wanting something better.

I acknowledge that I am in a trixy position, as I am on a 'side', but metaphorically, am running into 'no mans land' waving a 'lets truce' flag.

It wasnt always like this and it doesnt have to be like it in the future; for it to change, it comes down to as Marshall Rosenberg says speaking 'giraffe heart language' instead of 'jackal brain language'.

I'm not sure how to support you in this -
my own needs are to discuss things in a colleagial, friendly style, where good will is assumed, where friendship is actually really important, where truth-values like 'unproven' are admissable and welcomed, where absence of evidence isnt evidence of absence; where there is not a single "Truth" to be uncovered by argument, rather dfferent parts of maps to be explored; and more poetically - an image or 'vision' if you will, a place where the Rigourous Intuition cowboys and cowgirls can sit together under the stars under a beautiful clear desert sky round a campfire sharing their "Tales of Power" and maps of the vast unknown country we find ourselves in.

[Elvis]

Yet one more valiant leader of the fight against "The Illuminati":

People whom Mr. Icke thinks are secretly reptilian shape-shifting aliens from Draco include Bill Clinton, the late Princess Diana, Queen Elizabeth II, former Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney, President George W. Bush (of course), and, for whatever reason, Hollywood actor and former country star Kris Kristofferson.

It's obvious from the statement above that the writer never read The Biggest Secret. That article cannot be taken seriously. (Just like David Icke.)

[American Dream]

More critique of Illuminati Theory:

I Want to Believe

By JARROD SHANAHAN



Just because we can hear the black helicopters doesn’t mean they don’t exist

My old co-driver Nick and I would pass the time on interstate furniture deliveries by assessing the incipient mass movements taking off around the world. We debated the potential of the Arab Spring, Occupy, anti-austerity strikes in Europe, daily wildcats in Chinese factories, and other tantalizing glimpses of working class self-activity. And before long, we always reached the same impasse.

“I agree with you” he’d object, “but how can you expect everyday people to get behind all this?”

“Well, you’re just a truck driver,” I’d reply with a smile, “and you seem to know what’s up.”

One day a new co-worker sat grumpily wedged between us, saying nothing as our usual debate took shape. He grew increasingly agitated as we argued, and at long last became unable to stifle his perplexity.

“You guys do know that the world is controlled by a dozen families, right?” he asked us. “Ever hear of the Rothschilds? They run the economy and tell all the governments what to do. Experts agree.”

Nick and I learned that the global political order is coordinated by a tiny cabal whose tentacles extend to every aspect of society — political power, the production of cultural goods, and especially commerce, their center of activity. Centuries of war, social upheaval, euphoric boom, and cataclysmic bust have all unfolded at the behest of this shadow government. Never mind the pageantry of national sovereignty; never mind the illusion of government by the people; and never mind the wiles of particular captains of industry. A hidden structure prefigures these institutions and fixes their course. The perpetrators of this worldwide coterie are a nefarious group of billionaire bankers with untold powers, before whom heads of state cower and fortunes are made and dashed. They are the notorious Illuminati. And nothing anyone, especially a few penniless truck driving nobodies, could ever do could possibly change this.

Familiar as Nick and I were with this tired old canard, and especially wary of the xenophobia and anti-Semitism with which it typically comes packaged, we were still intrigued — and slightly appalled — by the amount of this narrative with which we could actually agree.

Begrudgingly, we conceded that in the present, human events unfold within a limited set of possibilities, and that there is in fact a tenuous global order. We admitted that the actions of sovereign states, the decisions of participatory democracies, and the interplay of “free” enterprises are in fact predetermined by a logic which they cannot defy in their present form, lest it undermine and ultimately destroy them. And while we of course recognized that individuals or groups may wield immense power, take actions with beneficent or disastrous consequences, and create vast masturbatory displays of their own wealth and power, they can only do so under the compulsion of a power higher still. And among the world’s poor, individuals acting as such are powerless, with their powerlessness’ apotheosis in misguided martyrdom or impotent political violence.

As a point of divergence, however, we insisted that this higher power is ultimately not human, no more than it is divine. It has been called many names over the years, but it’s simply the necessity for capital to accumulate, and for capitalism to expand, destroying all barriers which stand in its way, and incorporating all extant social forms into its own reproduction or else wiping them out. Beheading the king, as they say, we maintained that this process is not exactly executed by, but more specifically through humans, whom it forms as subjects through their daily work and behind their backs. As such they are subjects who do not determine this rationality, but only serve to make it function more effectively, and reproduce its material existence. The prefigured roles for humans to act out their will in the world fix them within strict parameters which do not challenge capital. Outside of this is outside of the law, and in the minds of many, outside of the imaginable.

In short, we informed our friend, there are no Rothschilds necessary, nor even possible. At this stage in its historical development, the conspiring businessmen and heads of state are merely vectors through which capital expands, expropriates, and encloses. Particular human actors have a choice to play by these rules or be cast aside, to be replaced by others just like them. Shadowy cabals meet in broad daylight at international summits, as Chomsky is apt to remark, and their meetings are terrifically boring. And the symbol of this “New World Order” is emblazoned on the dollar bill alright, but there’s no need for symbolic decoding.

For maximum effect we set about prodding the rawest nerve of the modern mind’s bad conscience — the destruction of our ecosystem. A conspiratorial shadow government, Nick and I maintained, would never allow for the planet to destroy its potable water, poison its air, destabilize its climate, and harken an age of flooded coastal cities and apocalyptic super-storms. After all, what is a throne but a plank with red velvet? Even the Rothschilds need air and water.

To face the possibility, we concluded, that the international ruling class is nothing more than the wealthiest representatives of a species dominated by forces outside of its control, is to admit that there’s no way out of eminent catastrophe without collective action capable of radically altering the very structure of society. Individuals, we conceded, are powerless as such. But classes are not. And like good conspiracy nuts, Nick and I added, “we know it sounds crazy,” but our version of events has the advantage of being the truth.

“You guys have a depressing view of the world” our new friend concluded, returning to silence.

http://thenewinquiry.com/essays/i-want-to-believe/



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