How to Overthrow the Illuminati

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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby American Dream » Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:13 pm

American Dream » Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:15 pm wrote:
Because Illuminati Theory is to me fundamentally flawed, even though I do think Mossad links to arms and drug trafficking are worthy of investigation, as is the P2 Masonic Lodge, as is corporate crime from the Finance Capital sector etc.

But Illuminati Theory, as elaborated in this thread, is itself so riddled with fucked up material, reactionary politics and unsubstantiated assumptions as to be highly detrimental to the Cause. And the Cause to me is telling the story of what's really going on, what's drastically wrong with our Society, in order that we might make things right, or at the very least- much, much better than they are today...


Also worth continued investigation: Skull and Bones, Ariosophy, Scottish Rite Masonry & Albert Pike and the many other places where conspiracy and occultism really do meet. However Illuminati theory often makes far more sweeping conclusions than are justified and very often reflects the reactionary biases of its interpreters.
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby brainpanhandler » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:35 pm

Sounder » Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:10 am wrote:While I certainly agree that the Kennedy quotes were mis-appropriated by this author, that still does not address the many warnings given to us coming from people in the know.

But yeah, maybe they 'don't exist' because a sloppy author misused a Kennedy quote.


First of all, it's not just the Kennedy quote that was decontextualized. I also showed you that the Wilson quote is not understandable outside it's full context. Call it 'sloppy' if you wish. It's just as likely intentional. In either event it calls into question the source providing the quote/s and therefore to me indicates further research into the rest of the quotes.

You could have run with that ball. You could have chosen a few more quotes and researched them. And you could have provided the results of your research here, whatever they were. You chose not to do that. So I guess I'll have to do some more of your work for you. You're welcome.

Let's take this quote:

“Mr. Chairman, we have in this country one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Banks. The Federal Reserve Board, a Government board, has cheated the Government of the United States and the people of the United States out of enough money to pay the national debt…Mr. Chairman, when the Federal Reserve act was passed, the people of the United States did not perceive that a world system was being set up here… and thatthis country was to supply financial power to an international superstate — a superstate controlled by international bankers and international industrialists acting together toenslave the world for their own pleasure.” – Congressman Louis T. McFadden, from a speech delivered to the House of Representatives on June 10, 1932


McFadden was talking about the Fed as a tool of the Jewish bankers and their attempt to rule the world.

wikipedia wrote:McFadden is also remembered as a "vociferous foe of the Federal Reserve,"[4] which he claimed was created and operated by Jewish banking interests who conspired to economically control the United States. On June 10, 1932, McFadden made a 25-minute speech before the House of Representatives,[5] in which he accused the Federal Reserve of deliberately causing the Great Depression. McFadden also claimed that Wall Street bankers funded the Bolshevik Revolution[6] through the Federal Reserve banks and the European central banks with which it cooperated.

After the expulsion from Washington DC of the veteran petitioners of the Bonus Army, which he called "the greatest crime in modern history", McFadden moved to impeach President Herbert Hoover in 1932,[7] and he also introduced a resolution bringing conspiracy charges against the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve. The impeachment resolution was defeated by a vote of 361 to 8; it was seen as a big vote of confidence to President Hoover from the House.[2] According to Time magazine McFadden was “denounced and condemned by all Republicans for his ‘contemptible gesture’.[2][4] The Central Press Association reported that he was “virtually read out of his party…[had] his committee posts…taken away from him…was ostracized by Republicans [and] called crazy…”.[8] Sen. David A. Reed (R-PA) said “We intend to act to all practical purposes as though McFadden had died”.[9]

In 1933, he introduced House Resolution No. 158, which included articles of impeachment for the Secretary of the Treasury, two assistant Secretaries of the Treasury, the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve, and the officers and directors of its twelve regional banks.[10]

In 1934, he made several anti-semitic comments from the floor of the house and in newsletters to his constituents wherein he cited the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, claimed the Roosevelt administration was controlled by Jews, and objected to Henry Morgenthau Jr., a Jew, becoming Secretary of the Treasury.[11][12][13][14][15] Drew Pearson claimed in his "Washington Merry-Go-Round" column that, in a publication by the American fascist Silver Shirts, McFadden had been "extensively" quoted "in support of Adolf Hitler".[16] In September the Nazi tabloid Der Stuermer praised McFadden.[17] He was also lauded by the publications of William Dudley Pelley, leader of the Silver Shirts, on several occasions.[12][18] On election day that year he lost to Charles E. Dietrich by "about 2,000 votes".[19] This was the only election between 1912 and 1950 when the district elected a Democrat.[20]

According to McFadden's Jewish Telegraphic Agency obituary: ‘In January 1935, he announced his candidacy for president with the backing of an organization called "the Independent Republican National Christian-Gentile Committee" on a platform to"keep the Jew out of control of the Republican Party!"’ [21] Not garnering much support for his presidential bid, he tried to win back his congressional seat. He lost the nomination by a wide-margin to Col. Albert G. Rutherford [22][23] who went on to win the general election.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Thomas_McFadden


Are you comfortable with that? Are you comfortable with a source that uses that quote as evidence of a secret controlling elite without making it clear that the speaker is referring to the jewish banking conspiracy?

Or:

“The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the large centers has owned the government ever since the days of Andrew Jackson.” — Franklin Delano Roosevelt, 32nd President of the United States (1933–1945), in a letter to Colonel Edward M House dated November 21, 1933, as quoted in F.D.R.: His Personal Letters, 1928-1945.


That one's a little more contextually complex. (The full text is here.) But the immediate context is:

I had a nice talk with Jack Morgan the other day and he and he seemed more worried about Tugwell's speech than about anything else, especially when Tugwell said, "From now on property rights and financial rights will be subordinated to human rights." J.P.M. did not seem much troubled over the gold purchasing, and confessed that he had been completely misled in regard to the Federal expenditures. The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the larger centers has owned the Government ever since the days of Andrew Jackson— and I am not wholly excepting the Administration of WW — The country is going through a repetition of Jackson's fight with the Bank of the United States - only on a far bigger and broader basis. I am having a grand rest and am catching up on much needed sleep. Take care of yourself and do write me soon.


So. In light of the references to Morgan, gold purchasing, and the Bank War in the context of federal expenditures and the prioritizing of human rights over financial/property rights (made by FDR in 19-fucking-33), I take him to be saying something along the lines of:

    The real truth is that this country has long been fucked, due to the ease with which international and/or private banks can run the show by buying off congress and/or screwing around with credit/heedless speculation and/or cutting better deals with foreign powers than the government can offer and/or otherwise disregarding the popular will and its interests (and so on) in the absence of a strong independent central bank, federal control of the money supply, nationalization of the country's gold reserves/abolition of the gold standard, banking regulations, and massive deficit spending of every kind most abhorred by libertarians and the right.

    I plan to rectify those things. And thus will a million adjustments to populist conspiracy theory targeting all things federal be born. Now I need a nap. Be well.

    Love,

    FDR


So that is now 4 quotes which have been taken out of context and misused to support the thesis that there exists some all powerful, evil cabal which controls everything. Which begins to become a pattern. Which begins to make me wonder about your source which you unhelpfully failed to provide a link to.

http://www.wakingtimes.com/2013/09/13/f ... ed-states/

Perhaps you should consider taking Pittman's advice to heart.

Pittman wrote:So, keep an open mind, do your own research, and use discernment. Beware that there is a ton of disinformation on the internet, much of which is intentionally placed to confuse the public.


Maybe you could perform a little research of your own.

I'll give you a hand.

Take this quote:

“The American mind simply has not come to a realization of the evil which has been introduced into our midst. It rejects even the assumption that human creatures could espouse a philosophy which must ultimately destroy all that is good and decent.” —J. Edgar Hoover


As I suspected Hoover was talking about the communist conspiracy.

See:

http://metabunk.org/threads/debunked-a- ... oover.330/

He does an excellent job of tracking down the original source and recontextualizing that quote.
"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Jr.
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby Sounder » Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:10 pm

Thanks for doing my work for me, the context you add is excellent.

I would have done better to stick to a much more limited set of quotes, maybe some Paul or James Warburg quotes. Like; son of CFR [Council on Foreign Relations] founder Paul Warburg, delivered blunt testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on February 17, 1950:

“We shall have world government, whether or not we like it. The question is only whether world government will be achieved by consent or by conquest.”
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:15 pm

Sounder » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:10 pm wrote:I would have done better to stick to a much more limited set of quotes, maybe some Paul or James Warburg quotes. Like; son of CFR [Council on Foreign Relations] founder Paul Warburg, delivered blunt testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on February 17, 1950:

“We shall have world government, whether or not we like it. The question is only whether world government will be achieved by consent or by conquest.”


Again, though: 1950. Cold War. Communism. The "conquest" version of one world government wasn't the CFR getting her hands dirty, it is the Evil Empire of the USSR spreading the toxic cancer of socialist totalitarian austerity around the globe. And the "consent" version of one world government was framed as UN & NATO.

The situation reminds me of the difficulty future archaeologists will face in distinguishing ad copy from history.
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby OP ED » Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:33 pm

Wombaticus Rex » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:15 pm wrote:

The situation reminds me of the difficulty future archaeologists will face in distinguishing ad copy from history.


this has always been a difficulty.

it also illustrates one of OP ED's objections to the most hardcore illuminati narratives. Those that believe in the straight-out rule of terran progress by ancient space/extradimensional lizards. its very difficult for OP ED to see the continuity of RULE, or continuation of a "Plan" when all sources eventually degrade to things like Caesar or The Bible for their "historical context"....
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby minime » Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:35 pm

OP ED » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:33 pm wrote:
Wombaticus Rex » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:15 pm wrote:

The situation reminds me of the difficulty future archaeologists will face in distinguishing ad copy from history.


this has always been a difficulty.

it also illustrates one of OP ED's objections to the most hardcore illuminati narratives. Those that believe in the straight-out rule of terran progress by ancient space/extradimensional lizards. its very difficult for OP ED to see the continuity of RULE, or continuation of a "Plan" when all sources eventually degrade to things like Caesar or The Bible for their "historical context"....


Just as it may be said the the hardcore illuminati narratives may be a device to distract from the topic at hand. Similarly comments on that device, or comments on the comments, like mine in this post.
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby minime » Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:47 pm

OP ED » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:33 pm wrote:it also illustrates one of OP ED's objections to the most hardcore illuminati narratives. Those that believe in the straight-out rule of terran progress by ancient space/extradimensional lizards. its very difficult for OP ED to see the continuity of RULE, or continuation of a "Plan" when all sources eventually degrade to things like Caesar or The Bible for their "historical context"....


Or it may be seen as it may have been intended: seemingly a reference to something external, when in fact a reference to something internal and immanent, in this case the lizards representing the lower brain, or the limbic system, or reptilian behavior.

An inside joke, as it were.

The Bible being no exception.
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby American Dream » Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:35 pm

http://www.santacruz.com/news/2012/03/1 ... _of_thrive

The Hidden Right-Wing Agenda at the Heart of ‘Thrive’

Locally produced cult film lionizes anti-tax crusaders and conspiracy theorists

by Eric Johnson on Mar 13, 2012

Image
Filmmaker Foster Gamble, left, and Adam Trombly
contemplate the idea of a perpetual motion machine in 'Thrive.'



Thrive, a highly polished two-hour documentary that was released on the Web in November and screens this Thursday, March 15, at the Del Mar, sells itself as an optimistic vision of a utopian future marked by “free energy,” freedom from oppression and spiritual awakening. But on its way to depicting its dream-world utopia, Thrive delivers a dark and dishonest version of the real world and espouses a blend of paranoid conspiracy theories and right-libertarian propaganda.

The local couple who made the film, Foster and Kimberly Carter Gamble, build their tale around an undeniably poetic idea: that there is a secret pattern to be found in nature, and that we can learn from it. Filled with beautifully shot vistas and psychedelic graphics, backed by a gorgeous soundtrack and infused with a warm spirituality, the film begins with what seems to be a scientific and historical examination of this pattern, with intriguing images from religious art and ancient architecture found in various cultures around the world.

Much of the first section focuses on the various meanings of this shape or pattern, which mathematicians call a “torus,” and which Foster Gamble believes holds vast significance and power.

Very soon, however, the film jumps the tracks, ostensibly proving that a) the torus can be used to create a perpetual motion machine and deliver “free energy;” b) the torus is a code delivered to humanity by aliens via UFO; and c) the government, backed by a cabal of powerful families, is violently suppressing this secret energy source.

We live in a time, sadly, where this kind of post-rational mumbo jumbo can find an audience—and Thrive has become something of a cult phenomenon since its release. Nevertheless, if Thrive stopped with the free energy and UFOs, it would be nutty, not dangerous.

In the film’s second section, Gamble sets out to show exactly how and why the government and its sponsors are duping us. This section probably accounts for its burgeoning online popularity with the Occupy movement and its supporters. (For the record, I count myself among that audience segment).

Bringing in progressive heroes such as Vandana Shiva and Paul Hawken to recount the more or less well-known crimes against humanity perpetrated by the likes of Monsanto (patented seeds) and Exxon-Mobil (global warming, etc.), Thrive makes the familiar, and justifiable, case that huge corporations have too much power, are largely corrupt and pose a threat to society.

But then, once again, the filmmakers jump the tracks of rationality. This is where the film should go political, and instead it plays the conspiracy card. And not just any conspiracy, but the granddaddy of them all: that a handful of families control the world and plan to enslave humanity.

In his soft voice, the white-haired, blue-eyed Foster Gamble says, sadly: “As difficult as it was for me, I have come to an inescapable and profoundly disturbing conclusion. I believe that an elite group of people and the corporations they run have gained control over not just our energy, food supply, education and healthcare, but over virtually every aspect of our lives.

“When I followed the money, I found it going up the levels of a pyramid.” (As the torus symbol dominates Thrive’s first section, the pyramid dominates the second.) And at the top of this alleged pyramid of evil: the Rothschilds.

Not everyone watching this film will know that this argument has been around, and been discredited, for decades. Apparently the desire to find someone to blame for all the world’s problems spans generations. And the Rothschilds make a pretty good target.

Are the Rothschilds very, very rich? Undoubtedly. Are the members of this family doing the work of Mother Teresa or the Dalai Lama? Mostly not. Are they all-powerful puppet-masters who secretly rule the world? Are they descended from a race of snake-people? Do they eat children? Um…no, no and no.

Are they Jewish? Well, yes. And it must be said: The argument made in Thrive precisely mirrors an argument that Joseph Goebbels made in his infamous Nazi propaganda film The Eternal Jew: that a handful of banking families, many of them Jewish, are running the world and seek global domination.

Foster Gamble inoculates himself against charges of anti-Semitism, stating flatly: “This is not a Jewish agenda. Let me be clear.” But while he scrubs out the openly anti-Semitic aspects of the disgraceful idea, the rest of it haunts the film.

And, once again it must be said, when describing symbolism used by his imagined Dark Lords of the Universe, Gamble does not hesitate to note that the Sign appears on the building that houses the Israeli Supreme Court, “which is funded entirely by the Rothschilds.”

To prove his economic theory, Gamble invites G. Edward Griffin, author of The Creature from Jeckyll Island, which recounts the creation of the Federal Reserve Bank, a historical moment which Griffin claims was orchestrated by the “global elite who want to control the world and create a New World Order.”

One of several veteran conspiracymongers who appear onscreen in Part Two of Thrive, Griffin is a longtime leading member of the ultra-right wing John Birch Society, a fact not mentioned in the film. For those who may have forgotten: The John Birchers practically invented the modern conspiracy theory.

Founded in 1958 to carry on the work of the anti-Communist crusader Sen. Joe McCarthy, the Society went on to battle the Communist conspiracy we now known as the Civil Rights movement, and its leader, whom many of them referred to as “Martin Lucifer King.”

Then the Birchers focused their energies on revealing the existence of a Satanic (literally) group they called The Illuminati—a cadre of powerful families that secretly rule the world. (Never heard of the Illuminati, or think it’s just a cool sci-fi trilogy beloved by stoners in the ’70s? Ah-ha!)



Enter the Reptilians!

While Griffin may be the most far-right pundit to appear in Thrive, he is not the most far-out. That would be David Icke, although it would be impossible to know that from the interviews that appear in Thrive.

Icke’s role in the film is to explain the economic theory behind a common banking practice known as fractional reserve lending. He does this in less than two minutes, with the help of South Park-style animations, as though explaining the theory of relativity to an attention-challenged second-grader. And, of course, he makes the practice appear sinister.

For a more sympathetic portrayal of the practice, see George Bailey’s bank run speech in It’s a Wonderful Life: “You’re thinking of this place all wrong, as if I had the money back in a safe. The money’s not here. Your money’s in Joe’s house, that’s right next to yours. And in the Kennedy house, and Mrs. Makelin’s house, and a hundred others. You’re lending them the money to build, and then they’re going to pay it back to you as best they can...” That’s fractional reserve lending.

Point of fact: Without fractional reserve lending, almost nobody reading these words would ever be able to own a house. You would need to raise not only a down payment, but the entire value of a home in order to purchase it. (Or be born with a fortune, as was Foster Gamble, whose grandfather founded Procter and Gamble.)

At any rate, Icke’s brief explication carries the day for Gamble, who concludes that with this banking ploy, “we inevitably become debt-slaves to a ruling financial elite.”

Icke then goes on to explain, in a minute or two, how banks caused the current recession purposely, in a plot to get their hands on all of the nation’s real property—a devious plot that has been “going on for centuries.” Again, as with many copnspiracy theories, there's a pretty big grain of truth to that.

According to the film’s website, this is David Icke’s area of expertise: “Icke reveals that a common formula—‘problem-reaction-solution’—is used by the elite to manipulate the masses and pursue alternative agendas.”

But a glance at Icke’s own website reveals that this is not his primary area of inquiry. Icke, it seems, is bringing the work of the John Birch Society into the New Age, furthering its study into the Illuminati. Like the Birchers, he swears he is not an anti-Semite, yet his site is rife with attacks against the “Rothschild-Zionists” who have, among other things, surrounded President Obama.

Icke’s innovation is that he tells the ancient conspiracy lie in the language of a self-help guru. “The Illuminati are not in my universe, unless I allow them in,” he says. “And then, I give them power. They’re frightened, frightened entities.”

It’s telling that Icke uses the word “entities,” because Icke believes the Illuminati, the people running the world, are not people at all.

David Icke, the man championed in Thrive for his insight to economics, spends most of his intellectual energies showing that the world’s leaders, from Queen Elizabeth to Bill and Hillary Clinton to Barack Obama, are not human, but are members of “bloodlines” descended from an interplanetary cadre of evil, god-like human-snake hybrids he calls “Reptilians.”

Two minutes into a video on his site titled “Demonic Possessed Reptilian Rulers,” Icke explains how these creatures do their black magic. Over images of George Bush, Bill Clinton and Barack Obama moving in super-spooky slo-mo, Icke says: “What [the Reptilians] are doing in effect, through the secret societies they’ve set up, is manipulating these bodies into power. But in doing so, they put themselves into power, because they’re controlling the mental and emotional processes of these vehicles.”

To put it another way: He isn’t one of those right-wing “Birthers” who believe Obama’s an alien. He believes Obama’s an alien.

In another video, “The Arrival of the Reptilian Empire,” Icke explains that “outside of visible light, [the Reptilians] feed off human energy, off human emotions.” And in the three-dimensional world, they feed off people. Literally. The video features an interview with a cohort named Alex Collier, who, in high dudgeon, says: “There were 31,712 children disappeared in the last 25 years in the United States. These children were food.”



Progressives Betrayed

In the final section of Thrive, the tone of the movie shifts dramatically, once again returning to the lush landscapes and beautiful music of Part One. This section, called “Creating the Solutions,” lays out a list of strategies for creating a better world. And again, the film is salted with appearances by progressive leaders: the Indian environmental activist Vandana Shiva, pop spiritualist Deepak Chopra, health food guru John Robbins, independent journalist Amy Goodman, biologist/philosopher Elisabet Sahtouris and Zen priest Angel Kyodo Williams, to name a few.

Most of the solutions Thrive puts forward will resonate with its target audience of spiritually inclined progressives: stay informed, shop local, eat organic, avoid GMOs, etc. But not all. Given the troubling complexities of part two, I was only slightly surprised to find that one of the values of the future Thrive depicts is “little or no taxes.”

No taxes. Sounds good—but does that mean no public libraries? No state parks? No public transportation? How about roads? Social Security? Haven’t the Gambles seen what this kind of anti-tax rhetoric has gotten us? Doubled tuitions at UCSC, huge Reagan-era-style cuts in social services, decaying infrastructure. The list goes on.

Near the film’s conclusion, Gamble reveals the source of his anti-tax position, reverently introducing a man he credits with providing him with his Core Navigational Insight for the future: Ludwig von Mises. He does not mention that von Mises is the guru of right-libertarians, so-called anarcho-capitalists and radical Republicans such as Michele Bachmann, who quipped last year that she reads von Mises on the beach.

Gamble does lay out the core of von Mises’ philosophy of “non-violation, in which “nobody gets to violate you or” (ahem) “your property.” That philosophy translates into three rules: no involuntary taxation; no involuntary governance; and no monopoly of force.

In case anyone misses the point—that the state must wither so that man can be free—Gamble shares von Mises’ opinion that like Communism, fascism and socialism, “democracy wrongly assumes the rights of the collective, or the group, over the rights of the individual.”

But wait a minute. Wasn’t that Paul Hawken on the screen a little while ago? How did we get from Paul Hawken to a thinly veiled anti-democracy rant and Ludwig von Mises?

Paul Hawken happens to be one of my personal heroes. A veteran of the civil rights movement, Hawken founded a couple of successful companies in the 1970s, and then went on to became the world’s leading environmentalist/economist with the publication of The Ecology of Commerce in 1993.

In Thrive, he delivers a passionate speech drawn from ideas in his latest book, the marvelous Blessed Unrest: How the Largest Movement in the World Came into Being and Why No One Saw It Coming.

“If you look at the people who are involved with restoring the earth and stopping the damage, and reversing the depredation, and nurturing change, and reimagining what it means to he human, and you don’t feel optimistic, then maybe you need to have your heart examined,” he says in the film. “Because there is an extraordinary, gorgeous, beautiful, fierce group of people in this world who are taking this on.”

Now, that’s what I’m talking about! Enough of this conspiracy hogwash—let’s do some positive-minded politics! (For a local example, see this week's cover story about the awesome work being done at Save Our Shores.)

In addition to being an admired economic thinker, Paul Hawken is a successful businessman and is nowhere near a socialist. Furthermore, Hawken was among the many sane people who championed the UN Climate Change Conference in Copenhagen in 2009, which Foster Gamble claims was an Illuminati/New World Order effort to create a global currency and destroy America’s sovereignty.

So—what’s Paul Hawken doing in this movie? I emailed him to find out. He replied he was just surprised as I was to find out he’s in the film.

“I did that interview many years prior under false pretenses,” Hawken replied. “I had no idea I was being interviewed for such a movie. Having said that, I have only seen the trailer [and] don’t really want to see the film, having read about it. I do not agree with the science or the philosophy.

“I do feel used, no question, as do others. It’s a lesson in signing releases.”

Similarly, In an email Thursday, Elisabet Sahtouris said that when she was interviewed for the film, she understood it was to be a very different kind of movie, and is "dismayed" at some of what she saw in the final cut. "I loved the footage shot of me and my colleagues; I deplore the context in which it was used.

"To put the individual above community is simply misguided; without community we do not exist, and community is about creating relationships of mutual benefit; it does not just happen with flowers and rainbows... and no taxes."

It appears that Hawken and Sahtouris aren't the only people who regret having appeared in Thrive. In a scathing review on the Huffington Post, Georgia Kelly of the Praxis Peace Center reports that she has heard from several of other interviewees, none of whom had any idea they were helping to make a libertarian propaganda film.



Truth Matters

Early in the film, Foster Gamble says that, at the beginning of his quasi-journalistic investigation, he decided to follow the number one rule: Follow the money. Having been a journalist for a lot of years, that’s a phrase I’ve heard frequently; many civilians think it’s our number one rule. It’s not.

The number one rule is get both sides of the story. The number one rule is don’t cherry-pick facts to suit your preconceived notions. The number one rule is be fair. The number one rule is tell the truth. The number one rule is keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out. Follow the money is, like, rule number 27.

Like Foster Gamble, I believe there is a secret pattern at work in the universe. Most people do. The Buddhists call it the Dharma, some Native Americans call it the Great Spirit or Great Mystery, and it’s what some Christians and Jews mean when they say God, or what some Muslims mean when they say Allah. If Foster Gamble wants to come up with is own word for it, no problem.

My big problem with this film isn’t its zany metaphysics or its Neanderthal politics or the fact that it seems to try and hide its political agenda. My problem is that Thrive promotes an irrational way of thinking that undermines logical political discourse. I hate to see my community being tricked into buying this nonsense.

In my humble opinion, one of the most magnificent expressions in all of creation is the human mind, and our ability to appreciate beauty and understand truth. Thrive is an affront to both.
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby Searcher08 » Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:04 pm

No- not gettin' it at all. When I allude to David Icke being a canary in the coal mine, my central point of reference is the conspiracy community, such as it is.


I suggest there is not a single drop of evidence that there is a 'conspiracy community'.


The acceptance of such a character as being a good guide is a sign that something really, really misguided is afoot.
However, Icke is just one example of many- others that I have named such as Springmeier, Cooper, Phillips/O'Brien, Marrs, Maxwell etc. are also canaries.It's just that Icke is one of the most famous/influential of such canaries.


This list seems to grow at every occasion - seriously. At the latest count, based on combining people and organisations you have spcifically connected to Icke:

The SDI (Six Degrees of Icke) list
David Icke
Alex Jones
Annunaki
Reptilians
Illuminati
Credo Mutwa
William Cooper
Cathy O Brien / Mark Phillips
Alexander Cockburn
Arizona Wilder
Israel Shamir
Jeff Rense
Dean Henderson
Rothschilds
PEZ
Ron Paul
Oathkeepers
Tex Marrs
Jordon Maxwell
Zeitgeist Movement
Venus Project
Ken O Keefe
David Duke
Svali
Pat Robertson
Todd Warnke (?)
Gilad Atzmon
Henry MooCow
Thrive
Foster Gamble
Eustace Mullins
Libertarians

I have probably missed some.


Also racism/anti-Semitism is not as central or uniquely important as you are suggesting.


The evidence of the your post count for those subjects as search strings surely indicates otherwise - as (a few weeks ago) you had nearly 3 times the number of references for anti-semitism than anyone else at RI. Which when I pointed it out, you accused me of trying to shame you. I was actually pointing out that you are extremely concerned by it.

It's also many, many other factors that make up the problem, as the last 30 pages of this thread should make clear.


What I see, like Sounder, is massive conflation.
As SLAD said, this isnt Democratic Underground. In fact if I remember correctly, I talked online about this with Jeff and he said he didnt want RI to become a focused activist-driven site. This site has a paraculture side.

I see a more and more expanding SDI list of 'problematic' and 'misguided' and 'dangerous' areas and that your focus is 90% towards this, 10% towards all other areas (excepting your TIDS thread)

The ongoing conflation here on this board of Palestinian liberation with racist, reactionary and/or wacko screeds here leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.


I see associating with Tony Greenstein as requiring mouthwash and brainbleach.

Again, some people may have different criteria for racist, reactionary and / or wacko than you do.
My definition of 'Wacko' is saying that one of the UK's best known long term TV personalities, the biggest single charity fund raiser, honoured by Royalty, Israel and The Pope is actually a
black magician necrophiliac pedophile rapist.

I mean that is off the bloody SCALE of Wacko.

I made the point that most of the people on the SDI list are there
because in your view they are racist and or anti-semites and or wackos.

Is there a single person on the list or subject on this list that is
NOT in your eyes racist NOR anti-semitic NOR a wacko?

It makes me much less inclined to talk about right wing zionist orgs here.

I think the conflation is coming from a different quarter. You used the expression "Icke and
X and Y and Z.." on many occasions. I have just brought these lists togather into one.

If you caught me in my offline life, say in my current activities for BDS and other such Palestinian solidarity activity, talking with people who have values and activities I know I feel good about, you would see me being much more open to talking about such things.


I am sincerely happy and glad you can do that. I think it is sad that so much of this continuing conflict would probably vanish over a couple of beers face to face...

But at the moment, now being told that
Skull and Bones
Ariarchy (sp?)
Scottish Rite Masonry
Albert Pike
Mossad and drug dealing
(^^ No offense, anyone who starts investigating that is fucking INSANE)
and Financial Centre Crimes

are worth researching is symptomatic of what lands with me anyway as an extremely 'Roman Law' approach to paraculture, namely that there is a list of BAD POISON (see SDI list) and there is a list of RI APPROVED SUBJECTS and only people and organisations in this list should be investigated.

And in that process, people like Jimmy Savile would go without investigation, because people like David Aaronovitch have taken that approach for years. And the people who have had issues with Savile are labelled as 'Wacko'.

As this list has grown this is, to me, starting to turn into a more overt attempt to change the RI board culture in this direction - the name is Rigorous Intuition -the Intuition is primary - and not Metabunk Activist Division.

I find this really enervating - what next?
Are we going to re-visit 9/11 and start a mega thread of 911myths.com posts?
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby vanlose kid » Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:04 pm

*

Here's another ***** from the hood who don't know what he's talking about. And with who?! Obviously been hanging with the wrong white folk.



*
"Teach them to think. Work against the government." – Wittgenstein.
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby vanlose kid » Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:12 pm

*

Malcolm X Illuminati theory.



*
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby seemslikeadream » Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:25 pm

Searcher08 » Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:04 pm wrote:
No- not gettin' it at all. When I allude to David Icke being a canary in the coal mine, my central point of reference is the conspiracy community, such as it is.


I suggest there is not a single drop of evidence that there is a 'conspiracy community'.


The acceptance of such a character as being a good guide is a sign that something really, really misguided is afoot.
However, Icke is just one example of many- others that I have named such as Springmeier, Cooper, Phillips/O'Brien, Marrs, Maxwell etc. are also canaries.It's just that Icke is one of the most famous/influential of such canaries.


This list seems to grow at every occasion - seriously. At the latest count, based on combining people and organisations you have spcifically connected to Icke:

The SDI (Six Degrees of Icke) list
David Icke
Alex Jones
Annunaki
Reptilians
Illuminati
Credo Mutwa
William Cooper
Cathy O Brien / Mark Phillips
Alexander Cockburn
Arizona Wilder
Israel Shamir
Jeff Rense
Dean Henderson
Rothschilds
PEZ
Ron Paul
Oathkeepers
Tex Marrs
Jordon Maxwell
Zeitgeist Movement
Venus Project
Ken O Keefe
David Duke
Svali
Pat Robertson
Todd Warnke (?)
Gilad Atzmon
Henry MooCow
Thrive
Foster Gamble
Eustace Mullins
Libertarians

I have probably missed some.


Joseph Campbell :jumping: :jumping:

Image

http://rigorousintuition.ca/board2/view ... ke#p509482

American Dream

Lacking a more fleshed out picture of these things, how can we know who Joseph Campbell really was?


American Dream » 26 Jun 2013 15:46 wrote:
Was Campbell a founding member of Mankind Quarterly?


justdrew

nope.
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby American Dream » Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:39 pm

It seems to me that some kind of synthesis of an institutional analysis with a conspiratorial/parapolitical analysis is the emerging best trend: what Peter Dale Scott refers to as "Deep Politics". This represents part of that:


The Role of Anti-Establishment “Conspiracy Theories”

By Colin Todhunter

Global Research, November 11, 2012

In recent years, populist explanations for world events have become common and often taken the form of anti-establishment conspiracy theories. The contradiction between how people believe the world should be, according to the mainstream propaganda pertaining to liberty and democracy, and how it is in this time of crisis leads people to search for easily digestible answers.

It’s easy for conspiracy theorists to play on people’s fears and prejudices and to point fingers at certain groups. In the past, it has been ‘the Jews’, ‘the Irish’, ‘the blacks’, ‘the Poles’ or some other easily identifiable target that was blamed for society’s ills. Resorting to selective interpretations of history or some simplistic Hollywood-esque inspired political or sci-fi narrative where giant reptiles are taking over the planet can be quite seductive, particularly for ‘right-leaning’ sections of the population who never had any truck with socialism and probably once believed in the ‘free market’ and capitalist liberal democracy but now have trouble in fathoming out why it has all gone wrong.

Conspiracy theories of different kinds have been found on both the left and the right of the political spectrum over the decades. While the right saw reds under the bed everywhere, the left regarded every negative event as a consequence of capitalism – what sociologists call ‘left functionalism’.

Much of the left, however, possesses an analysis based on a sound understanding of how capitalism works and developed over time. David Harvey’s assessment of the current crisis (1) uses concepts of capital over accumulation, production outsourcing, wage and demand depression and credit access to explain why we are where we happen to be right now. John Foster (2) discusses the nature of the current crisis in similar terms.

The advocates of populist conspiracy theories seek to explain everything in terms of secret societies and codes, Zionism, ‘communism’ or the hand of ‘Rothschild’. Of course, families like the Rothschilds and Rockefellers and groups like Bilderberg exist and do hold great power. That much is not in dispute. However, the nature of the dynamics of power is. Groups or think tanks like Bilderberg, Brookings Institute, Trilateral Commission, Chatham House, Council on Foreign Relations, RAND Corporation and so on are where capitalism’s state-corporate hegemons, including the rich families mentioned above, meet to discuss, devise policies and manage capitalism.

Radical critiques of society have often focused on the underlying logic and processes of capital accumulation and capitalist economic crises as well as capitalism’s inherent contradictions. An analysis of the historical antecedents of modernity according to scholarly analysis has also been prevalent. Today, it is popular to assert that the members of some shadowy group have been in charge all this time – the Illuminati, often used as a metaphor for ‘the Jews’.

The rise of such explanations are understandable in a complex world, where the ordinary person feels utterly powerless, confused and craves easy answers. Little surprise then that events and crises are said to be the work of some sinister ‘Illuminati’, an explanation which tends to steer clear of any genuine analysis of capitalism.

In the West, jobs are being outsourced, wages are falling and unemployment rising. As the market becomes saturated with goods and demand is unable to mop up supply, firms go bust. There is a shift towards powerful monopoly capitalism, while citizens and workers experience increasing powerlessness and immiseration. And to seek out new profits, imperialist ventures abroad become the norm. State-corporate monopoly capitalism and imperialist intent are not part of a ‘New World Order’ but are part of a world in which the few benefit at the expense of the many and that has been in the making ever since Britain became the first industrial nation and capitalism emerged.

But what we now have isn’t free market capitalism, some might say. The notion of the free market has always been a myth. It’s always been controlled and manipulated. It’s never been ‘free’. And we are now witnessing advanced capitalism in all its gore.

Capitalism has inherent contradictions. All was never intended to be fine. Remember the slogan to end poverty by 2020 (or whatever the date was)? Capitalism thrives on poverty. It’s integral to the system. That’s why it is rampant in the West and much more so in the cheap labour economies of the ‘developing world’. The increasing concentration of power, ownership and wealth and the rising impoverishment of the masses is one of capitalism’s greatest contradictions. It’s not some kind of conspiracy to keep the masses in poverty or in fear of falling into it. It’s built in to capitalism.

But many do not refer Marx, Engels, Lenin or Trotsky to gain an understanding of the processes of dialectic materialism and capitalism. They and their theories are regarded as being part of the Zionist conspiracy. If socialism and communism are the creation of Zionism, which supposedly exerts so much control over the US and Britain, strange then that the secret services of both the US and Britain spent so much time and energy on infiltrating, deradicalising and subverting the left (3).

While the late Antony C Sutton (sometimes regarded as the father of modern conspiracy theories) provides food for thought in his writings and research (4), conspiracy theories tend to provide limited insight into the dynamics of power and oppression in the 21st century.

However imperfect the work of people like Robert Brenner (5) and Barrington Moore (6) may have been, their research was based on broad comparative sociological analysis of the cultural, historical, agrarian and economic factors that led to the rise of capitalism, fascism and communism in various societies. In the absence of this, however, prominent proponents of conspiracy theories in the US and Britain make crude assumptions about such phenomena comprising part of an Illuminati plot, which play on the prejudices and fears of ordinary people, who in turn latch on to the explanation offered as a proxy for the underlying causes of their powerlessness and frustrations.

Why bother having an informed understanding of the dynamics of the modern world based on rigorous research? Much easier to watch a few YouTube clips about some secret, manipulative elite or even amphibians from outer space with an agenda to control the world.

Many conspiracy theorists have indeed actually been quite informative on how the banking system works and how bankers conspire to control policies by keeping governments in permanent debt. They have also highlighted glaring flaws in official accounts of 9/11. They have rightly pinpointed what the mainstream misses out of its narratives and have raised issues that many on the left had tended to ignore or gave scant attention to. But such useful insights then become wrapped up in theories that too often appear to be based on flights of fancy.

There is no doubting that people can and do conspire to shape events. Not everything can be explained by structures where individual motive is eradicated. For example, corporations conspire to produce price cartels, media barons conspire to dominate and state-corporate interests embark on military jaunts to control markets and resources. And yes, bankers conspire to restrict credit for various reasons. But this has to be placed within the wider context of Empire and capitalism.

In capitalism, the compulsion to compete, dominate and pursue profit casts long shadows over virtually every social and cultural institution, from government and politics to education, law, agriculture and entertainment.

Conspiracy theorists and their followers may well appreciate aspects of this, but merely speculate about the intentions of and actions of groups of people without addressing how capitalism shapes any of it.

In finishing it is interesting to recall that not everything in life can be neatly explained away, as the philosopher Karl Popper once famously argued. It can be easy for conspiracy theories to overlook the pervasive unintended consequences of political and social action and assume that all consequences must have been intended. Unpredictability abounds. And that’s something some on the left may care to occasionally chew over too.

Notes

1) David Harvey (2010), Crises of Capitalism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOP2V_np2c0

2) John Foster (2010), Capitalist Crisis and Cuts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkhmGOxwbhM

3) Robin Ramsay (1996), The influence of intelligence services on the British left, Lobster Magazine: http://www.lobster-magazine.co.uk/articles/rrtalk.htm

4) Antony C Sutton (1974), Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution: http://reformed-theology.org/html/books ... index.html

5) Robert Brenner (1976), “Agrarian Class Structure and Economic Development in Pre-industrial Europe”.Past and Present 70

6) Barrington Moore (1993) [First published 1966]. Social origins of dictatorship and democracy: lord and peasant in the making of the modern world (with a new foreword by Edward Friedman and James C. Scott ed.). Boston: Beacon Press.
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Re: How to Overthrow the Illuminati

Postby American Dream » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:06 am

Note to Searcher: I put you on "ignore" a long while ago and in fact I never removed you from that status. I have simply chosen to read and then reply, in effect giving you another chance.

If as Ishmael Reed asserts, "Writin' is Fightin", that's ok, we can spar sometimes, wrestle with each other- and hopefully with our own internal contradictions. Taking that metaphor for all its worth, my biggest gripe with you has been my unhappiness with the way you fight- too much stuff that is below the belt and otherwise unacceptable to me.

In looking at your last post, I was unhappy with many things- especially your trying to impose the centrality of David Icke on me- even when I tell you he is just one of many problematic characters, you come back to some kind of claim that I name all the others just to connect them to him, or something. This kind of "Do you still beat your wife?" stuff is a repeated problem with you, as for example with the anti-Semitism, which you try to reassert as more defining, more central for me regarding Illuminati theory than I keep telling you that it is.

Anyway, I could keep go on and on about my beefs but I won't. I considered trying to ask you to change your behavior, negotiating some kind of concrete limits but I decided I won't. I believe that reframing unfairly and/or putting words in peoples' mouths is just part of what you do- by training (and perhaps by disposition), you are an info warrior who doesn't fight fairly when you disagree with someone as strongly as you do with me. This, on evidence and belief developed over years, I hold to be true.

So, to bring things to a point, I come back to the position that I do not owe you a response for anything you write, no matter how long, how impassioned, or whatever. I will respond as I choose, if your communications feel relatively clean and fair, if I want to.

So that's it!
Last edited by American Dream on Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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