Could an anarchist society build the Hubble Telescope?

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Could an anarchist society build the Hubble Telescope?

Yes
12
50%
No
7
29%
No idea whatsoever
5
21%
 
Total votes: 24

Nordic
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Re: Could an anarchist society build the Hubble Telescope?

Post by Nordic »

brainpanhandler » Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:24 pm wrote:It's a meaningless question until "anarchist society" is defined.

What's the most sophisticated project any type of arguably "anarchist society" ever built?

Thanks, I was just about to write something very similar.

And isn't "anarchist society" something of a contradiction in terms?

While I, too, dream of an anarchist utopia, isn't it just, in reality, more magical thinking? Not too far away from those libertarians who think that "IF ONLY PEOPLE WOULD ACT LIKE THIS" then things would just WORK OUT?

It's really something of a quandary.
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Re: Could an anarchist society build the Hubble Telescope?

Post by Forgetting2 »

Interesting note on Citizen Kane. Did not know that.
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Re: Could an anarchist society build the Hubble Telescope?

Post by justdrew »

I voted Yes, out of a smidgen of respect for fantasy literature by the likes of L. Neil Smith, but in reality, I'm not so sure. Control of vital resources would still end up concentrated in the hands of a select few who could and would use that power to coerce the behavior of 'the masses'

However a reasonably useful society could be built that would be a lot more anarchistic that what we see now, but there would need to be some social structures able to set some standards and enforcement. for instance, I don't know exactly how you punish murder or any other 'crime' in a totally anarchist society.

see here for one take on how Justice could be implemented.

but really isn't all the anarchy interest really just about ignoring your responsibilities to others? :moresarcasm
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Re: Could an anarchist society build the Hubble Telescope?

Post by AhabsOtherLeg »

In what way has the Hubble Telescope improved the lives of the peoples who live on this Earth?

Just asking. It might have done wonders for us, for all I know. Has it?
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Re: Could an anarchist society build the Hubble Telescope?

Post by jcivil »

With an anarchist society we would have seen the launch of a Hubble like object 3644 years ago.

That is how much hierarchy limits us and wastes the earth. (And its exact because I checked it with my time-viewer, duh.)

And no, Anarchist Society is not an oxymoron, its a prerequisite.
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Forgetting2
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Re: Could an anarchist society build the Hubble Telescope?

Post by Forgetting2 »

I didn't find an anarchist thread, but there's a lot of crossover in the Libertarian left: ideas and history thread.

Building a good definition of an 'anarchist society' would be helpful though, ironically, not easy to do imo.
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Re: Could an anarchist society build the Hubble Telescope?

Post by Nordic »

What about the 2 secret Hubble-sized telescopes that were designed to look down upon the earth, upon us?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/05/scien ... nergy.html

“This is a total game changer,” said David N. Spergel of Princeton, who is co-chairman of a committee on astronomy and astrophysics for the National Academy of Sciences, which sets priorities for NASA and other agencies. Alan Dressler, of the Carnegie Observatories in Pasadena, Calif., who reported to the Academy committee on the scientific potential of a mission with the NRO-1 telescope, as astronomers are calling it, said he was “really excited.” He told the gathering, “I think this is a tremendous opportunity for this community.”

For now, the two telescopes and some spare parts are still in their clean room at ITT Exelis, in Rochester. Michael Moore, who, as NASA’s acting deputy director for astrophysics, took the original call last year, has been to see the telescopes several times. He called their optics “astounding.”

Dr. Grunsfeld described the telescopes as “bits and pieces” in various stages of assembly, lacking a camera and other accouterments, like solar panels or pointing controls, of a spacecraft. “We can’t say what they were used for,” he said.

A spokeswoman for the National Reconnaissance Office, Loretta Desio, said, “This is not something we’re going to talk about,” adding, “We’re hoping this becomes a NASA story.”

The two telescopes have a 94-inch-diameter primary mirror, just like Hubble, but are shorter in focal length, giving them a wider field of view: “Stubby Hubbles,” in the words of Matt Mountain, director of the Space Telescope Science Institute, adding, “They were clearly designed to look down.”

I sorta doubt an anarchist society would have made these.
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Re: Could an anarchist society build the Hubble Telescope?

Post by MacCruiskeen »

Just a brief note to let you all know that if a majority says Yes, then we will build the Anarcho-Hubble, starting on January 1st.

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Re: Could an anarchist society build the Hubble Telescope?

Post by Elvis »

The OP question, however "anarchist society" is defined, is a great question, it's had me thinking about it. No answer yet, but I think this goes part way towards it:
AhabsOtherLeg » Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:01 am wrote:In what way has the Hubble Telescope improved the lives of the peoples who live on this Earth?
I'd say the Hubble photographs have enriched my life. Personally I think these grand exploratory projects are vital to the human spirit.

Maybe an anarchist society would use Kickstarter for these public projects: "Hell yeah, I'll chip in five bucks for that."

Space exploration organized by citizen initiative, enacted by referendum with instant funding: "1. You like this idea? (check box) 2. What's this worth to you? (enter amount in field)"
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Re: Could an anarchist society build the Hubble Telescope?

Post by AhabsOtherLeg »

Elvis » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:14 pm wrote: I'd say the Hubble photographs have enriched my life. Personally I think these grand exploratory projects are vital to the human spirit.
I agree to be honest, but I still don't think the Hubble would've been the priority of an anarchist society, and I'm not convinced that they would necessarily be wrong to concentrate on other things first.

I do like it, and am glad it exists. Can't see any good reason why an anarchist society wouldn't be able to build it, but it would depend on how that society was actually run. After all, we're a representative democracy (okay, okay, a constitutional monarchy), but we're not really run as one.
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Re: Could an anarchist society build the Hubble Telescope?

Post by Iamwhomiam »

I voted no, though I suppose they could build one. But why on earth would they?

While I agree Hubble has its rewards, most of us cannot appreciate it for anything more than that we know it for, its fascinating photographs of places in space so far away that may no longer exist.

I would have to imagine that such a society would be earthbound and see no purpose for such a satellite. Maybe a communications satellite, sure, but not a Hubble space-based telescope.

Besides, I thought Libertarians were the real anarchists, and we could hardly call such an uncouth bunch a "society" except jokingly.
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Re: Could an anarchist society build the Hubble Telescope?

Post by justdrew »

I'll just chat with myself a bit :eeyaa
justdrew » 27 Oct 2013 02:35 wrote:but really isn't all the anarchy interest really just about ignoring your responsibilities to others? :moresarcasm
isn't it true that the fundamental human unit is the tribe, not the individual? yes, individuals should have as much latitude as possible, but how long can the community support a member who doesn't support the community reciprocally?

but as to would they "do" space? What frontier have we not explored and expanded into? In this I say the PTB are decidedly holding us back, intentionally.
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Re: Could an anarchist society build the Hubble Telescope?

Post by Forgetting2 »

What was that 5000 years of debt story? Graeber. It was about a society that shared everything. If someone said 'I really like that fish you caught,' you had to give it to them. In the story there was a guy who never fished and just used the code to get whatever he needed. They couldn't break the code but got really annoyed by the guy. Solution? They killed him, rather than break the code.
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Re: Could an anarchist society build the Hubble Telescope?

Post by Wombaticus Rex »

I found the proposition intersting because, to borrow some CritTheory nomenclature, it troubled my conception of "Anarchy," which kinda precludes the existence of "Anarchist Society" as a meaningful descriptor. My sense is that Anarchy is the natural state of affairs -- "natural" in the physics sense, not a hippie purity test -- and all societies exist in a state of anarchy regardless of their exertions & assertions to the contrary.

AKA, you can do everything you can get away with and it was ever thus.

So on the one paw, an Anarchist society did build the Hubble, and on the other, an Anarchist society is mere abstraction, a byproduct of language symbols much like a Picasso couch or a BMW giraffe. We can process what those word combinations mean but they are not real.

Anarchy is a lot like gravity: utterly unmoved by our opinions regarding its nature & existence.
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Re: Could an anarchist society build the Hubble Telescope?

Post by American Dream »

In the recent past it has been David Harvey as much as anyone who has advanced a position along the lines suggested by the title question here.

Rebel Cities is a long read but this excerpt from a shorter interview will do for conveying something of Harvey's thoughts on the matter:
Ed: I want to come back to what you touched upon about embracing a plurality of strategies, and linked to that you talk about the need for a variety of organisational forms. You’ve waded into an enduring and sometimes pretty hostile debate that’s been going on for a long time but which has been quite acute in the last few years, between ‘horizontalists’ and ‘centralists’ or ‘verticalists’. Can you expand on that, and how it relates to your analysis of capitalism and the city?

David: I think there is a great attachment right now to horizontality. I try to say to the students that I like to spend much of my life horizontal, but I also like to stand upright every now and again and walk around! Because I think this is not helpful. But again, I’m not against being as horizontal as you possibly can. There is what I call in the book a sort of fetishism of organisational form, and that was as bad in the democratic centralist forms of organisation, the Leninist parties and Communist parties.

I think again, the question for me is what kind of organisation is able to confront and address what kind of problem, at what scale? And I think that horizontality can work with certain problems at certain scales, but it soon runs out of possibilities. We live in a world where there are a lot of tightly coupled systems around, tightly coupled in such a way that you need command and control structures immediately to deal with them. For example, a nuclear power station is a tightly coupled system. When something goes wrong in it, you need to react immediately because otherwise it will go very fast through the whole thing and explode. The university is not a tightly coupled system. If something goes wrong in it, say somebody doesn’t turn up for a lecture, it doesn’t matter. The university survives perfectly well. But in tightly coupled systems you need very quick decision making.

So I say to all the people who are horizontalists, do you want to organise air traffic control on a horizontalist principle? Do you want to have assemblies all the time in the air traffic control tower? Would this work? How would you feel if you were half way across the Atlantic, and they suddenly said “well, actually the air traffic controllers have just gone into assembly mode, and they’ll let us know tomorrow what they’ll do”? There are many things like that that need a completely different sort of organisational form, and I think it’s good that people are talking about horizontality, but it’s bad that they kind of say it has to be horizontal or nothing.

Ed: It comes from at least a quasi-anarchism, and a deep suspicion of any form of authority. Are you saying that, basically, to be a radical, to be anti-capitalist, you still need to recognise that authority has its place at times?

David: Yes, of course. I think authority has its place. The problem that is posed by this, and it’s a very important one, is how do you hold authority accountable? What are the mechanisms of recall, and what are the mechanisms of control, because a hierarchical structure can indeed become top-down and authoritarian. But there’s a big difference between authoritarianism and authority. I think that at certain points you need somebody to have the authority.

The famous example that a lot of people quote would be the Zapatistas. But the Zapatistas, militarily, are not horizontal. The only reason they have survived is precisely because if you try to mess with them militarily, they have very good command and control structures in which they can actually resist. And if you don’t have that, you’re very vulnerable. One of the criticisms that was always made of the Paris Commune was that, because a large part of it was brought up in a sort of philosophical anarchism, there was no central authority to defend the whole city. People were defending their arrondissement, but not the whole city, so the forces of reaction could easily get through because there was no command and control structure to resist militarily the invasion that came.
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