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by seemslikeadream » Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:29 pm
by American Dream » Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:33 pm
KSL: Fascism is shit – is there anything else to say about it?
3WF: I think many people look at fascism and say, ‘What a load of crap. How could anyone really believe that stuff?’ Even many antifascists look at the fascist movement as a joke, violent, but a joke. No doubt the fascist movements have their share of the knuckle-draggers, idiots, and the politically inept, but don’t all movements have these types? I would actually say that in a real fascist movement, the more inept and foolish would be eliminated from the ranks. Fascism prides itself on ability, commitment, and sacrifice.
Fascist movements of the past were popular because they offered a total ideology with accompanying programs for action. Millions embraced fascism not because these people were stupid but because fascism provided a vision for social transformation amidst a time of international crisis. Fascism was able to mobilize masses of people.
I think this is important. The perspective I hold essentially sees fascism as a real movement of ideas that can draw people in and motivate them. It is a ideology and world view we are gonna have to compete with on more than a physical or military level.
CW: Fascism is a dynamic political ideology that seeks to appeal to all classes, to unite those classes within a strong state, under the control of a hierarchical elite. Usually race is a key component of fascism, and it is always staunchly anti-socialist, and opposed to any independent organisation of the working class. Fascism is usually opposed to internationalism, unless that internationalism is based on race.
KSL: What’s the current state of North American fascism?
3WF: When talking about the North American fascist movement I would first say it is in flux and there are several competing political tendencies. To give an answer I would break it down into three basic categories. Admittedly, the categories I lay out are simplified and consequently overestimate some trends and neglect other factions that are smaller, more ideological, and represent a more dissident fascism. These groups are what we might call the ‘Third Position’. A fuller elaboration would make a book. But nonetheless, I think the following breakdown gives an idea of what is here.
The first category is what I would call the Euro/White fascist block. This includes the National Alliance, The Creativity Movement (formerly called The World Church of the Creator), Aryan Nations, the various Nazi skinhead groups, the modern Ku Klux Klan, etc. Basically, those who trace their lineage back to White and European fascism and Hitlerian National Socialism.
Currently there are all kinds of rifts in these scenes. Several of the key leaders have died over the last few years and there has been a jockeying for power. I think one could also make the case that there has been a counter insurgency struggle being waged against the fascists by the US government in which there have been mysterious murders of nazi cadre by cops or the imprisonment of fascists on trumped charges. There is activity in the nazi circles but I think many groups are going through a process of regroupment.
The second block are not outright ‘fascist’ (and because of their Americanism some factions may claim an ‘anti-fascism’ and have an anti-racist platform based on Christian fundamentalism), but are based around a more popular far-Right, conservative, religious, and US Nationalist politic. There can be crossover with the hard-core fascists, but this block is unique in that it’s defined often as an ultra-conservative movement that still seeks to preserve the United States as a nation, albeit a White dominated and Christian nation. Another major political characteristic of this block is that it is isolationist and wants to remove the US from global affairs. I would say that this is a rather significant block in the US. If there is a deepening social crisis it could emerge as the strongest organized political tendency in opposition to the current two party electoral system. Anti-immigration and vigilante groups, rural militias, and sections of the activist anti-Choice movement would be included here. One important difference between this block and the out-and-out fascists is on the issue of revolution. Most neo-Nazis are for social revolution and the destruction of the US, this goes against the sensibilities of the ultra-conservatives. Though under the right social circumstances the conservatives could see the need for what amounts to a radical authoritarian ‘regeneration’ of US society. Political ideologues like Pat Buchanan and his journal, The American Conservative, could be considered an articulate voice in this block, though not necessarily the dominant one.
The last block is the wild card and has yet to materialize on any mass level, although the potentials for its emergence are present. Before laying this out I want to make clear that in this situation a blanket labeling of fascism has it’s problems. Nonetheless, certain characteristics are similar to fascism and any discussion demands serious attention and an analysis of this block’s authoritarian nature. I would consider this section to be based in the disorganized and marginalized masses of poor and working people. I would say that what could emerge are ultra authoritarian social movements that are male-centric, militarized, religious based, and insurgent.
These movements are not restricted to White/Euro culture, quite the opposite. Outside of the US, Hamas, the Sadrists in Basra, and the Al-Qaeda network are the most glaring examples of non-socialist, non-liberatory ideologically driven movements. Hamas, which has a strong presence in Gaza, has actual geographic space to define and control. They also have mass support due to their willingness to fight Israel and their development of social aid programs in their controlled areas. Now, the just mentioned groups have developed in their own unique sphere but I think that not so dissimilar situations could develop here. If a revolutionary ‘left’ opposition does not materialize in the States that is made up of and shaped by the oppressed, then more reactionary forms will emerge in that void. This position is controversial because it denies the view that the oppressed will necessarily form a left opposition to the State.
Here in the States there are vast armed criminal associations operating in the poor and people of color communities. These organizations may have links with elements of the government and cops, but they still have a relative autonomy that I think could provide the basis for an insurgent and authoritarian reaction against the State if there was a social shift in which resources and power were at stake.
Because I define three basic (and simplified blocks) I want to say also that this means there has to be different approaches to each. We can’t treat these movements in the same fashion. Fascism, and a more broad authoritarianism, is complex and our interactions with it can’t be static.
KSL: Can you say a bit more about the ‘a three way fight’ idea? As I understand it, it’s that the fascists are not necessarily an arm of the current ruling class.
3WF: In a way I already touched on this. The idea of the ‘Three Way Fight’ breaks down like this: First, the State and the capitalist ruling classes. Next, you have the insurgent forces from below who are fighting for their own vision and are autonomous from the State. This is where it gets drawn out into the sides. One force are the authoritarians. This would be fascists and the authoritarian socialists. In the other corner, you have us, the revolutionary anti-capitalist and libertarian left.
Now, these lines are not always neat and clear. This perspective doesn’t think Marxists and Leninists are fascists. And it doesn’t claim that the libertarian/anti-authoritarian left is free from mistakes and contradictions. What we think is that for our side, we are gonna be competing ideologically and on the ground with more than the State. We don’t consider there to be a simple dichotomy of ‘Us and Them’, it’s much more complicated. The authoritarian left suffered much discredit after the demise of the USSR, and with the rise of the ‘anti-globalization’ movement there has been a new wave of radical and popular anti-authoritarian politics. But all this can shift. There is no reason to think that authoritarian and Stalinized politics can’t make a come back, just as there is no reason to assume anti-authoritarian politics will progress and become the dominant political trend within the struggle against the State.
We must be offering perspectives and engaging in practice that is rooted in a radical libertarian and socialist vision. Not that everything we do has to have a big circle A stamped on it, but we have to be critical about strategy and political trends. Like I said before, if a revolutionary anti-authoritarian tendency is not present then more authoritarian politics will develop in that void.
You would think that this perspective is evident in anarchism, but I don’t think it is, at least not in North America. Fascism as an opposition is often underestimated or revolutionaries think when times get tough and that there is a radical challenge to the State, then it will ultimately coalesce a left opposition. I don’t hold that view, I think history points to something much more heterogeneous.
KSL: What’s the current state of British fascism?
CW: The way in which fascism adapts to a changing political climate, and its ability to move with the times, is remarkable when you compare it to the dinosaurs of the last century left (and at times the anarchist movement) Having punched below its weight for 50 years, British fascism has now got its act together.
Look at the way the British National Party have attempted to organise in South Yorkshire. They have spoken about contemporary issues – the rise of Islam, the changes brought about by asylum and the effect on social services, the corruption of long term Labour Councils – and the left is all too often wittering on about Palestine, or the miners defeat of 20 years ago. They are attempting to fill the vacuum.
Secondly, I think the international links that fascist groups in Europe/North America have developed put the links of European & US anti-fascists to shame. We need to up our game.
In the UK the fascists who have adapted to society have prospered politically (look at Nick Griffin) whilst those who are stuck in the old anti-semitic conspiracy theories have either stagnated, or are reliant on the arrival of recruits disillusioned with the populist approach of the ‘new’ BNP.
Nick Griffin’s masterstroke was removing the BNP’s commitment to compulsory repatriation of all non-whites. The policy was ridiculous (on many levels!) and removing it meant quite a few of the old nazi nutters left the BNP. With that policy gone, people who may have the odd black friend, get on well with the staff in their local Chinese or fancy the Asian woman in the corner shop, could vote BNP without feeling they are necessarily sending such people off to the gas chambers.
The second element in the rise of fascism in this country is entirely external, and is something that quite possibly anti-fascists can do next to nothing about. The rise of militant Islam is something outwith this interview, but the reality is that what has happened in many Muslim societies over the past 20-30 years, and what people see in some Muslim communities in Britain, scares the living daylights out of them.
This issue, and the third element, the poor levels of integration between British Muslims and other communities, has not been seriously addressed by the British political establishment. It is being addressed by the fascists. It is now being addressed by the old left, in the shape of the Respect Unity Coalition, who’s message is basically ‘Don’t Criticise the Muslims’. Things may get worse before they get better, especially if there are more suicide bombings by British Muslims.
KSL: Has the ‘War on terror’ had much effect?
3WF: I think it has put fear into a lot of radicals and made mass work difficult. The state is definitely operating with more repressive tactics. There is also massive propaganda that says: ‘You’re with America or you’re against America.’ There are actually media reports around that say that in addition to foreign born terrorists, there are home grown terrorists which included White Supremacists, Anarchists, and radical environmental groups like the ELF/ALF. In some ways, as the war in Iraq gets further drawn out, people are becoming disenchanted with it. There is a growing anti-war movement and this is collapsing the notion of loyalty to the current government. People are feeling more emboldened to speak out. This may open up more space for dialogue and radical voices.
CW: It has been a disaster for race relations in the UK. It has driven communities further apart, something that the US/UK political establishment is probably unconcerned about, and something the likes of Bin Laden, and British Muslim extremists would be delighted about.
When polarisation occurs, people take sides. And every time a British Muslim is seen talking about Jihad, or praising those fighting the US/UK troops in Iraq or Afghanistan, it is another stack load of votes and donations for the BNP.
KSL: What does the militant anti-fascist movement need to do to win?
3WF: Big question that I don’t have a good answer for.
I think most importantly we have to be engaging in struggles beyond just anti-fascist street battles. I think that we need to have monitoring groups and be keeping tabs on the various fascist fronts, but our challenge to fascism may be in broader arenas. I think we’re gonna be in combat with fascist politics (both openly and quasi-fascist) around immigration struggles and when doing anti-U.S. war work.
Also, we can’t just see fascism as a White/Euro politic. It goes deeper and is international. We have to be accessing the various opposition movements and be critical of what, how, and who we support. Some may think that those fighting US/British Imperialism in Iraq or Afghanistan are deserving of unconditional support, but what are these groups’ politics? Do we want to give support to movements that are anti-woman, anti-queer, authoritarian, and against popular participatory politics? I would say no. But for some these questions are irrelevant.
I think we have to really maintain an antifascist outlook at all times. Anti-fascism is a total politic, not just one for when were on the streets fighting nazi skins.
CW: To win we have to know our enemy, beat our enemy and replace our enemy.
I am not sure if we have a militant anti-fascist movement, and I am not sure we want to style ourselves as ‘militant’. I have always said I am a moderate – its the people who want to compromise with the fascists who are extreme!
KSL: Finally, what’s the best advice you can give someone new to the movement, on how to fight against fascism and for a free society?
3WF: Think, be critical, and don’t look at debate and analysis as something unrelated to our struggle. However, don’t let the complicated questions prevent you and your movement from action. The political situation changes and may call for new strategies; talk it over with those who seem serious and are interested in your ideas. And the last thing, think with security on your mind. Be smart, be cautious, don’t jump in without some plans.
CW: Know the sort of world you want. Know your enemy and remember this – we have to beat the fascists every time, they only have to beat us once. If they come into power, we are dead and buried. Literally.
by jakell » Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:35 pm
slimmouse » Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:27 pm wrote:Which is of course the point at which it gets seriously interesting for the true racists in our midst.
Whereupon they issue copypasta, or denialism longer than a dreamy sunday.
by seemslikeadream » Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:51 pm
American Dream » Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:17 pm wrote:Searcher08 » Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:12 pm wrote:American Dream » Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:37 pm wrote:Hmmm, the op was written by an anti-fascist from Montreal who who is clearly against the revolutionary white right: neo-fascists, white supremacists, and fellow travellers.
Isn't that clearly in accord with what Rigorous Intuition is about?
I'm not sure if you know, but it appears that our main MOD (Wombaticus Rex) has left being a MOD - for me (and I am being very specific, not ambiguous when I say this) - THAT is what Rigorous Intuition is currently about - a place where exchange about contested subjects has collapsed, where every Solace post is to me carries a screaming barely concealed diatribe against the slightest differing viewpoints, where there is fuck all trust left following the events that resulted in your and slad's suspension and a front page that looks more and more like ADL talking-points.
It was not always like this. When you started posting here you were really funny, personally open and disclosing and engaged in just about everything, the WOO-ier the better.
I think R.I. is currently great as an example of wasted potential, fratricidal communications, good people hating on other good people, fighting the Roman Law vs Common Law fight in a thousand fucking threads.
What shall our epitaph be?
"They spent unending hours
being right
and fighting all collaboration
the valiant keyboard warriors
they were RI"
I don't know about all that but I'd like to see two other threads then: one about whatever happened with W.R. and one about how we can make R.I. better.
This one is about Judeophobia and anti-Fascism.
by slimmouse » Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:55 pm
by jakell » Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:03 pm
slimmouse » Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:55 pm wrote:This whole stupidity of intellligent minds, engaging in some kind of crusade against humanity in the name of some stupid faith or dogma deeply disturbs me.
Life on earth aint no easy gig for sure
by American Dream » Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:21 pm
No sensible revolutionary is holding their breath expecting some Great Depression to suddenly do a mass organizing job for us. And imperialism shows no signs of collapsing on its own anytime soon. But there is some glossed over infection in the blood, something critical happening within the capitalist structures.Like a positive lab test, the rise of fascism proves that world capitalism’s intoxicating moment of historic triumph is not quite as it seems. For it itself is in deep systemic crisis. The system is not working as the big capitalists want it to. Even within the empire of the affluent European Union, capitalism’s very development has led to a twilight zone of protracted crisis that is, on a national level, seemingly beyond either reform or ordinary repression. Will this come to symbolize the system as a whole?
Fascism always had to be imposed by the ruling class, we thought. We assumed that it could never be popular, especially in Europe where it had such a disastrous track record in living memory. Yet fascism and the associated far right now has a surging mass base, and is the “democratic” choice of millions of Europeans. In Austria, known fascist elements are now in the ruling government coalition. It has pushed the whole political spectrum to the right in Europe, as the ruling class is forced to experiment Frankenstein-like with transplanting parts of fascism into the body of European bourgeoisie democracy.
Has fascism become a type of institutionalized subculture, of lifestyle, within world capitalism? Will we see new hybrid capitalist societies, part bourgeois democratic and part fascist as societies splinter into different zones? Just as in Germany now there is a gulf between the cosmopolitan city of Dusseldorf, regional home to Japanese and other transnational corporations, and the “no go” zones of the welfare state German East, where fascists gangs often own the street.
Through what mechanisms – practically speaking – do we see the imperialist ruling class directing their national States now that they are also outgrowing them? Is the relationship of classes changing within capitalism? How autonomous can the State be in capitalist society? What is the role of hegemony rather than direct hands-on control in capitalism being maintained?
Although fascism is new historically speaking, we have yet to see a stable fascist regime (in retrospect the Franco regime in Spain was clearly – as the Nazis privately complained – a conservative Catholic dictatorship rather than a fascist one, although there were fascists in it). Is fascist rule only a temporary sterilizing interlude before the big bourgeoisie has to reassert control? Fascism as a State power has at least two obvious destabilizing attributes: By repressing or eliminating sections of society – such as Jewish scientists or educated women – it forecloses much of its own needed competitive development. Since it adds new mass repressive layers of soldiers and administrators who produce nothing & must feed off of an already weakened economy, fascism tends towards aggressive wars, looting, and criminal enterprises which bring it into conflict with other capitalist nation-states. There is an underlying liberal attitude that fascism is so self-defeating that it can be outwaited. What does this mean for us?
by slimmouse » Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:35 pm
by Searcher08 » Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:39 pm
jakell » Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:35 pm wrote:slimmouse » Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:27 pm wrote:Which is of course the point at which it gets seriously interesting for the true racists in our midst.
Whereupon they issue copypasta, or denialism longer than a dreamy sunday.
I think you are referring to what I referred to as clogging, or wallpapering (if it involves mainly images) on my previous forum.
Heavy going maybe, but it is preferable to silence and extreme subtlety. at least substance can be tacked and deconstructed.
by American Dream » Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:49 pm
slimmouse » Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:35 pm wrote:The world as it currently sits is in a big fukn mess.
This mess is no better exemplified by the "Jewish" state of Israel.
How best might we eradicate Anti semitism based upon such a serious truth?
by seemslikeadream » Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:05 pm
by American Dream » Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:31 pm
American Dream » Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:49 pm wrote:slimmouse » Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:35 pm wrote:The world as it currently sits is in a big fukn mess.
This mess is no better exemplified by the "Jewish" state of Israel.
How best might we eradicate Anti semitism based upon such a serious truth?
Let's start by questioning cultural and racial nationalisms, and indeed racialism in general. Essentialism needs a thorough critique. Let's develop some good principles as we seek a post-Colonial. post-Capitalist, post-Racist and post-Patriarchal world.
In that we can oppose the social order in Israel/Palestine just as we oppose Settler Colonialism and its legacy worldwide. In doing this effectively, critical consciousness about all forms of bigotry- including Judeophobia- will be essential. This will mean really questioning strongly held beliefs and making deep changes...
by seemslikeadream » Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:32 pm
by Searcher08 » Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:59 pm
seemslikeadream » Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:05 pm wrote:you know what would help ...if you stop trying to make this board into your own personal anti-semite/holocaust denying blog
by jakell » Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:11 pm
American Dream » Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:49 pm wrote:slimmouse » Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:35 pm wrote:The world as it currently sits is in a big fukn mess.
This mess is no better exemplified by the "Jewish" state of Israel.
How best might we eradicate Anti semitism based upon such a serious truth?
Let's start by questioning cultural and racial nationalisms, and indeed racialism in general. Essentialism needs a thorough critique. Let's develop some good principles as we seek a post-Colonial. post-Capitalist, post-Racist and post-Patriarchal world.
In that we can oppose the social order in Israel/Palestine just as we oppose Settler Colonialism and its legacy worldwide. In doing this effectively, critical consciousness about all forms of bigotry- including Judeophobia- will be essential. This will mean really questioning strongly held beliefs and making deep changes...
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