Towards Rigorous & Radical Conspiracy Theory

[American Dream]

Searcher, you're always entitled to your opinion but never in a million years would I imagine that you were a person who shares enough my view of the world, nor values, nor methodological orientation, to make fruitful collaboration of the type I would like a possibility. Likely you already know that.

As to politics:

I'm big on critiquing left cults and dogmas, privilege politics, lifestyle anarchism, questionable or non-existing strategies, wimpy liberalism, black bloc Manarchism, elevating one struggle above all others, Third World "solidarity" that veers towards charity and/or gives authoritarian movements a free pass, leaders not practicing what they preach, opportunism in general, the Non Profit Industrial Complex, destructive Separatism, Echo Chamber Politics, Clicktivism, etc. etc

Rigorous Intuition represents all kinds of things, and to me there are some very respectable figures that have come through here, some very disreputable characters, and lots of decent people- a few of whom might possibly be good matches and ready, willing and able to collaborate on the sort of projects that I'd like to help make happen.

[coffin_dodger]

I keep signing in to comment on this thread, then having typed something, end with the thought 'what's the point?' and delete it.

And in fact, I've just done it again.

[jakell]

I saw the word 'collaboration' above**, and have seen it referred to elsewhere here as if it's a prerequisite, this concept is not hinted at in the OP nor in the title. why has it suddenly appeared?

**and 'a good match', if we're getting into matchmaking then I'll have to think about my profile.

(actually, I've spotted it, but it seemed general and the above is getting more person-centred)

[Elvis]

Searcher, you're always entitled to your opinion but never in a million years would I imagine that you were a person who shares enough my view of the world, nor values, nor methodological orientation, to make fruitful collaboration of the type I would like a possibility.

But, with all respect, isn't this exactly what needs to be done?

(Key word: imagine)


I hoped, and can still hope, that this thread might be the start of an inclusive and open-minded collaboration (suggested in another thread), but the proposed "Theory" is likely to be narrow and underdeveloped (potentially radical but not truly rigorous) if its formulation is confined to one set of assumptions and methods (yours, in this case).

A metaphor occurs to me: Fortresses. Intellectual fortresses, under seige. We all do it, and sometimes it's hard to break out of the fortress and sit down at the table together.

Thanks for hearing me out.

[American Dream]

Searcher, you're always entitled to your opinion but never in a million years would I imagine that you were a person who shares enough my view of the world, nor values, nor methodological orientation, to make fruitful collaboration of the type I would like a possibility.

But, with all respect, isn't this exactly what needs to be done?

(Key word: imagine)


I hoped, and can still hope, that this thread might be the start of an inclusive and open-minded collaboration (suggested in another thread), but the proposed "Theory" is likely to be narrow and underdeveloped (potentially radical but not truly rigorous) if its formulation is confined to one set of assumptions and methods (yours, in this case).

A metaphor occurs to me: Fortresses. Intellectual fortresses, under seige. We all do it, and sometimes it's hard to break out of the fortress and sit down at the table together.

Thanks for hearing me out.

I appreciate the sentiment but the differences are too great, really. Plenty of common ground for a light chat on this, that, or the other- but realize that (in my eyes), I am setting the bar very high by citing figures like Tom Burghardt, Peter Dale Scott, Jeffrey Kaye et al. Mere mortals can aspire to developing that sort of vision and rigour but it takes a very exceptional person to step definitively in that direction.

I'm all for pleasant conversation across ideological difference, however.

[seemslikeadream]

9/11

LIHOP?

MIHOP?


What made building 7 go boom?

[Searcher08]

Searcher, you're always entitled to your opinion but never in a million years would I imagine that you were a person who shares enough my view of the world, nor values, nor methodological orientation, to make fruitful collaboration of the type I would like a possibility.

But, with all respect, isn't this exactly what needs to be done?

(Key word: imagine)


I hoped, and can still hope, that this thread might be the start of an inclusive and open-minded collaboration (suggested in another thread), but the proposed "Theory" is likely to be narrow and underdeveloped (potentially radical but not truly rigorous) if its formulation is confined to one set of assumptions and methods (yours, in this case).

Precisely.
One of the things that has been found in 'Open Space Technology' meetings that is a key factor for success is the greater the diversity in the actors present, the better.

Animal activists meeting - Less like to succeed
'The Whole System In the Room' - much more likely to achieve breakthroughs.

This is no big deal, it is O.D. (the field of Organistional Development)

This position is 180 degrees different from AD's which is based on similarity.

[Searcher08]

Searcher, you're always entitled to your opinion but never in a million years would I imagine that you were a person who shares enough my view of the world, nor values, nor methodological orientation, to make fruitful collaboration of the type I would like a possibility.

But, with all respect, isn't this exactly what needs to be done?

(Key word: imagine)


I hoped, and can still hope, that this thread might be the start of an inclusive and open-minded collaboration (suggested in another thread), but the proposed "Theory" is likely to be narrow and underdeveloped (potentially radical but not truly rigorous) if its formulation is confined to one set of assumptions and methods (yours, in this case).

A metaphor occurs to me: Fortresses. Intellectual fortresses, under seige. We all do it, and sometimes it's hard to break out of the fortress and sit down at the table together.

Thanks for hearing me out.

I appreciate the sentiment but the differences are too great, really. Plenty of common ground for a light chat on this, that, or the other- but realize that (in my eyes), I am setting the bar very high by citing figures like Tom Burghardt, Peter Dale Scott, Jeffrey Kaye et al. Mere mortals can aspire to developing that sort of vision and rigour but it takes a very exceptional person to step definitively in that direction.

I'm all for pleasant conversation across ideological difference, however.

How terribly Downton Abbey of one!
We simply MUST do afternoon tea sometime and have a cozy chat across the ideological fence.


You see, to me you didnt really address what Elvis was saying - and how are you setting the bar by citing these researchers? What does that mean? The most thorough and detailed researcher I have seen is Antony Sutton - I just dont know how anyone in our likely situations (familiy, jobs, finance, kids etc etc) could match that level of forensic case building.
Part of my issue with your approach has been a - *lack* of rigour - like 'Conspirituality' and a lack of interest in you allowing your epistemology to be challenged.

[jakell]

Searcher, you're always entitled to your opinion but never in a million years would I imagine that you were a person who shares enough my view of the world, nor values, nor methodological orientation, to make fruitful collaboration of the type I would like a possibility.

But, with all respect, isn't this exactly what needs to be done?

(Key word: imagine)


I hoped, and can still hope, that this thread might be the start of an inclusive and open-minded collaboration (suggested in another thread), but the proposed "Theory" is likely to be narrow and underdeveloped (potentially radical but not truly rigorous) if its formulation is confined to one set of assumptions and methods (yours, in this case).

Precisely.
One of the things that has been found in 'Open Space Technology' meetings that is a key factor for success is the greater the diversity in the actors present, the better.

Animal activists meeting - Less like to succeed
'The Whole System In the Room' - much more likely to achieve breakthroughs.

This is no big deal, it is O.D. (the field of Organistional Development)

This position is 180 degrees different from AD's which is based on similarity.

I think similarity is too light, high compatability looked like the requisites to me.

[82_28]

AD, just be more neutral then. When you find yourself in a favorable stretch, just coast. When you feel you're losing torque, downshift and make it up that hill. When you're going downhill at a rapid pace, keep it in low. My meaning is, is that I view RI as a "flat" place -- a place that it is perfectly safe to keep it in neutral if you want. We're all here. We're not in a race or battle of any kind. Perhaps give a gentle push or tug. But you yourself cannot determine what someone else's gear is in outside of their own vehicle. You could be in third and your fellow beside you is in fifth and still going the same speed.

Share the road, in other words. (I know you do, but keep an eye on it -- just from what I've noticed of late)

[Elvis]

First, AD, thanks for your explanation, I'll reserves any quibbles for now.

One of the things that has been found in 'Open Space Technology' meetings that is a key factor for success is the greater the diversity in the actors present, the better.

Animal activists meeting - Less like to succeed
'The Whole System In the Room' - much more likely to achieve breakthroughs.

Searcher, the 'Whole System In the Room' caught my eye, as it's a metaphor used by Paul Goodman in his book Growing Up Absurd -- where we imagine American/Western society existing all together in a room where we can observe its inhabitants' various kinds and levels of engagement and so on -- a useful metaphor but different a Future Search meeting, which I looked up:

Four principles underlie a successful Future Search

1. Getting the “whole system in the room”

2. Exploring all aspects of a system before trying to fix any part

3. Putting common ground and future action front and center, treating problems and conflicts as information, not action items.

4. Having people accept responsibility for their own work, conclusions, and action plans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Search

Without knowing anything more about it or its creators, Future Search rings sensible to me, and has apparently been used to some good effect:

Started by Marvin Weisbord and Sandra Janoff, Future Search functions to help people collaborate despite differences of culture, class, gender, age, race, ethnicity, language, and education. The method has been employed in communities, schools, hospitals, churches, corporations, government agencies, foundations and NGO’s.

Future Search methods have been used to help: organize the demobilization child soldiers in Southern Sudan, develop an integrated economic development plan in Northern Ireland, work with a Hawaiian community to reconnect with traditional values, and determine the future of urban mobility in Salt Lake City, Utah, among many other examples.[1]

AD's starting points -- Peter Dale Scott et al., are excellent bedrocks and by no means should be discounted. But if the purpose of a 'Rigorous & Radical Theory of Conspiracy', in its simplest expression, is to effectively identify problems and point to changes that build a humane civilization, it will have to be (rigorously) comprehensive and inclusive.

[American Dream]

AD's starting points -- Peter Dale Scott et al., are excellent bedrocks and by no means should be discounted. But if the purpose of a 'Rigorous & Radical Theory of Conspiracy', in its simplest expression, is to effectively identify problems and point to changes that build a humane civilization, it will have to be (rigorously) comprehensive and inclusive.

I think I understand your point but I think that an investigation of the nexus between international fascist terror gangs and drug networks would not have to be (rigorously) comprehensive and inclusive of all social problems in order to identify problems and point to changes.

It would seem to depend on how one interpreted that data- and what the recommendations for corrective action would be...

[Searcher08]

@Elvis
Future Search is great! - there is a whole field of meeting topologies - Open Space; Scenario Planning; Backcasting; Visual Mapping; World Cafe - that was my background (corporate facilitation) in a previous life...

@AD
I took what Elvis said as a project like this having to be inclusive of diverse participants - like myself.

[jakell]

@Elvis
Future Search is great! - there is a whole field of meeting topologies - Open Space; Scenario Planning; Backcasting; Visual Mapping; World Cafe - that was my background (corporate facilitation) in a previous life...

@AD
I took what Elvis said as a project like this having to be inclusive of diverse participants - like myself.

There's a project? Seems rather ill defined to me, as well as rather exclusive.

[American Dream]

@Elvis
Future Search is great! - there is a whole field of meeting topologies - Open Space; Scenario Planning; Backcasting; Visual Mapping; World Cafe - that was my background (corporate facilitation) in a previous life...

@AD
I took what Elvis said as a project like this having to be inclusive of diverse participants - like myself.

OK- now I see it differently but to use the sharpest sort of contrast there is a big, big difference between say, a recommendation to get rid of the jewish bankers and/or to live in eco-villages trading gold vs. say, to opposing Capital and the State by organizing grassroots workers- waged and unwaged- into an independent but coordinated force of resistance rooted in anti-racist, anti-sexist, anti-fascist principles.

I'm just laying out a thumbnail sketch and I want to be clear that I am not advocating the more prescriptive forms of agit-prop, but the point should be obvious. Not that I deny that there are jewish bankers who have done wrongful things, or am against trading in gold or living in eco-villages per se...