Mass Shooting in California

[8bitagent]

(And never mind the America-centered approach, which would require a field 10+ times larger than this entire box to cover "Iraqis killed in Iraq.")

The only guns I believe in, besides people who like to target practice for fun: women shooting their abusive husbands. I'm all for it. A lot of women in prison for rightfully defending themselves.

[Hunter]

I am a liberal/progressive that feels very strongly in the right to bear arms. Maybe because I am from the Wild West and I am just used to seeing people carry and I also keep one handy in truck and next to bed. As a former GI I am well trained on proper use and technique and I encourage anyone who decides to own a gun to get trained properly. I do not think the guns are the problem I think our approach to mental health and the stigma of mental illness that makes people not want to get help, are the problems. Most if not all of these spree shooters suffer from some sort of mental instability and we need to address that and find a way to fix it because just taking away guns wont solve the problem, people will kill gun or no gun if that is what they set out to do, he killed six people, 4 of them were men 2 were women and 3 of them were stabbed with a knife and not killed with a gun.

I am open to debate on why others think we should ban guns but keep in mind the only people that wont own them if they are banned are the law abiding citizens, the criminals will still have them and it gives me a peace of mind to know I can protect my family should the need arise. There is no way we can ban all guns, there are too many on the streets already, if you ban them the good citizens will follow the law and turn them in but the millions of guns already on the streets will the be soley in the hands of the criminals and I am not comfortable with that.

This may be the only issue I agree with the right on, otherwise I am very liberal/progressive and dont like the Tea Party or the GOP much at all anymore.

[Hunter]

Double post.

[Hunter]

Edited

[JackRiddler]

Would someone kindly give me the laymans cliff notes version of what New Atheism is, I have googled it but I am just looking for the dumbed down version, I consider myself an Atheist by virtue of being a Buddhist and a belief that there is no higher power is a fundamental tenant of the Buddhist way of life, but I am not familiar with this term "New Atheism", please help if you feel up to it. Also looking on what sets it apart from just good old fashioned Atheism. Thanks in advance!

The OP article and some of the other items on this thread

http://rigorousintuition.ca/board2/view ... =8&t=35930

are critiques of the "New Atheism" (as it has emerged under Harris, Dawkins, Dennett, Hitchens, et al.) from the perspective of, let's call it, classical atheism. See also on the second page of that the post on "the weaponization of atheism."

http://rigorousintuition.ca/board2/view ... 15#p488094

[Hunter]

Thanks Jack, looks like I need to do some reading, looks like a good place to start, much appreciate!

[Zombie Glenn Beck]

Thanks Jack, looks like I need to do some reading, looks like a good place to start, much appreciate!

Chris Hedges wrote a very good book about New Atheism called "When Atheism Becomes Religion"

[Zombie Glenn Beck]

"Fedora" has been showing up increasingly as a shorthand by women online to signify when they're being harassed by self-identified MRAs online. Because at one point MRM / friendzoned "nice guys" / pick up artists / involuntary celibates moved far beyond divorce and custody issues and coalesced into some loose form of subculture. For whatever reason, fedoras, medieval slang, "new aetheism" (see the RI thread for details) all started being used as symbols by a visible and vocal subset of men's rights activists. When a woman saw a reference to a fedora or was addressed with a "m'lady" they knew that some kind of sexual harassment was not far behind. So women have taken to using "fedora" as a beacon to other women to mark harassers.

I was just reminded to ask since a lot of the MRM defenses posted here seem unaware of the current social politics and backlash, and I just saw a woman refer to Rodger as a fedora.

Really, its interesting that its become feminist slang. It started out just as an insult to New Atheists and then just sort of devolved into a general insult, usually accompanied by comments on your My Little Pony and/or fleshlight collection. The connotation being less "harasser" and more "loser".

[Belligerent Savant]

.

http://gawker.com/seth-rogen-is-not-ple ... 1581860784

Ann Hornaday, the Washington Post's film critic, published an op-ed yesterday that implied that one of the principal reasons for Elliot Rodger's mass killing in Isla Vista was the white men of Hollywood's "escapist fantasies [that] so often revolve around vigilantism and sexual wish-fulfillment." Hornaday specifically called out both Judd Apatow and Seth Rogen's recently-released Neighbors as an example.

From the op-ed:

"How many students watch outsized frat-boy fantasies like "Neighbors" and feel, as Rodger did, unjustly shut out of college life that should be full of "sex and fun and pleasure"? How many men, raised on a steady diet of Judd Apatow comedies in which the shlubby arrested adolescent always gets the girl, find that those happy endings constantly elude them and conclude, "It's not fair"?
Hornaday continued:

If our cinematic grammar is one of violence, sexual conquest and macho swagger — thanks to male studio executives who green-light projects according to their own pathetic predilections — no one should be surprised when those impulses take luridly literal form in the culture at large.
Rogen tweeted his response to Hornaday this evening:

Seth Rogen ✔ @Sethrogen
Follow
.@AnnHornaday I find your article horribly insulting and misinformed.

Judd Apatow also tweeted at Hornaday, claiming the article was self-promotional and idiotic.

Judd Apatow ✔ @JuddApatow
Follow
“@Sethrogen: .@AnnHornaday I find your article horribly insulting and misinformed.”She uses tragedy to promote herself with idiotic thoughts

And Apatow later suggested that the op-ed was published for shock value.

Melissa @melissa5001
@Sethrogen @marshallsheldon @AnnHornaday why is it always everything but mental illness?
Judd Apatow ✔ @JuddApatow
Follow
“@melissa5001: @Sethrogen @marshallsheldon @AnnHornaday why is it always everything but mental illness?” Because that doesn't sell papers.

Hornaday has yet to respond to the critiques.

Comments:

ClioUDayna Evans
Yesterday 10:37pm

Hollywood produces shit. The world consumes shit. Conclusion: humans are full of shit.
581Reply


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UClio
Yesterday 10:39pm



You've never liked a film before?
181Reply
kevinzimmerman
Clio
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ClioU
Yesterday 10:41pm



I didn't exclude myself.
291Reply
michaelpronk
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michaelpronkUClio
Yesterday 10:44pm



Thats why your on this website.
41Reply
cmalaparte
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cmalaparteU
Yesterday 10:45pm



Hollywood doesn't make film. It makes propaganda.
21Reply
Show 66 more replies in this thread
Jeremiad started this thread Yesterday 10:39pm

Jeremiad
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JeremiadUDayna Evans
Yesterday 10:39pm



Aren't the same things said about video games and violence, and hasn't the research shown time and time again that there is not a connection?

I can understand her point, but I definitely would have chosen different examples of misogyny in the media because the ones she pointed out aren't very good, just recent (with Neighbors, then her jump to Judd Apatow was a bit weird).

Judd Apatow consistently shows that being/accepting yourself and not being an immature asshole is the way to go if you want to be happy, which is pretty much the opposite of these "incels" and PUAs.

Moreover, if you're looking at a movie as a blueprint to your life, you have larger issues. Most peoples college experiences aren't exactly Animal House, doesn't mean you get broken up about it. None of these movies insinuate anybody is "owed" anything.

I would like to explore this topic more if anybody would so choose to respond.
451Reply
prometheus
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prometheusUJeremiad
Yesterday 10:54pm



I'd agree with you about Apatow "consistently shows that being/accepting yourself and not being an immature asshole is the way to go if you want to be happy..." if his films didn't spend most of its running time celebrating the immature asshole or holes. As a theory supporting Apatow it doesn't hold. I don't disagree with most everything else you've posted.
101Reply
jwill08
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Jwill08UJeremiad
Yesterday 10:54pm



The problem with blaming media is that you then have to make your half-assed theory jive with decades of openly or passively sexist books, movies, music, and comics. Which you kinda can't. At the very least, video games add the dimension of being interactive, so you might be more likely to perceive yourself as the avatar in-game. When Jaime Lannister throws Bran out of the window, we all go "what a dick" when you throw a kid out of a window in a video game (none that I'm aware of?) you say "I'm a dick", or laugh about it. However, as you said, evidence suggests that it isn't necessarily tied to violence... just frustration.

Personally, I think people take these manifestos way too seriously. The guy was fucked in the head. He did something a normal person wouldn't do. Why would anyone think that his reasoning would make sense to us or come from a rational place?
61Reply
realfunnyguysrealfunny
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realfunnyguysrealfunnyUJeremiad
Yesterday 10:55pm



"incels"? What is that?
21Reply
Lozzle
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LozzleUrealfunnyguysrealfunny
Yesterday 10:57pm



Involuntary celibates.
41Reply
Show 23 more replies in this thread
rationalings started this thread Yesterday 10:42pm

rationalings
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rationalingsUDayna Evans
Yesterday 10:42pm



a lot of people find the frat boy ethos horribly insulting and misinformed. Sure this guy was deeply ill no question. but cultural narratives such as the men's rights nonsense give a validation and support for some horrible mindsets. The fact of this man's mental illness does not render the the culture non-existent or above criticism.
241Reply
PrayForDenton
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PrayForDentonUrationalings
Yesterday 10:50pm



Yes, that sort of culture does indeed deserve criticism, but culture doesn't drive sane individuals toward unspeakable violence. That sort of violence is born in the madness of one's mind.
81Reply
BurninAlive
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Big Gay OwlUPrayForDenton
Yesterday 10:53pm



Well, not murder, but a lot of fraternities seem awfully rapey.
301Reply
KaiFromDogtown
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KaiFromDogtownUrationalings
Yesterday 11:02pm



People aren't suggesting stuff like MRA and PUA culture is beyond reproach. And hey if you want to take on frat-boy culture too, that's fine. But connecting it to something like this killing spree is over the top. It's sensationalism, and it cheapens much of the real issues.
81Reply
PrayForDenton
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PrayForDentonUBig Gay Owl
Yesterday 11:02pm



That's funny, because a lot of fraternities back in my day seemed awfully gay. But in all seriousness, I do believe there is a valid conversation about MRAs and PUAs and patriarchal blah blah blah in reference to this tragedy, but a lot of the conversation at this point seems too reactionary and less substantive. It's our nature to find something to blame, because it's easier to find fault in something than to acknowledge that there are disturbed individuals among us that are prone to violence and that there is little we can do to stop them.
31Reply
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Milton Berle's Cock started this thread Yesterday 10:45pm

david-carroll-jones
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Milton Berle's CockUDayna Evans
Yesterday 10:45pm



"How many students watch outsized frat-boy fantasies like "Neighbors" and feel, as Rodger did, unjustly shut out of college life that should be full of "sex and fun and pleasure"?

Wait, college isn't that?
81Reply
PrayForDenton
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PrayForDentonUMilton Berle's Cock
Yesterday 10:46pm



My college certainly was.
1Reply
KaiFromDogtown
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KaiFromDogtownUMilton Berle's Cock
Yesterday 10:55pm



I'm sure as hell glad Rogen's films weren't around when I was in college. Otherwise I probably would have killed a lot of people.

Or I would have probably just smoked more weed and laughed more. That seems more like it actually.
111Reply
cameron1123
Cam/ron
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Cam/ronUMilton Berle's Cock
Yesterday 10:56pm



I never forgave Hollywood for lying to me.


SEXPAND
201Reply
muffin_cupcake
muffin_cupcake
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muffin_cupcakeUMilton Berle's Cock
Yesterday 11:08pm



College is like that for many people, but I think a lot of young people find college stressful and even lonely, and the pressure to have the TIME OF YOUR LIFE just adds to the feeling that you're doing something wrong. Socially anxious kids, depressed kids, and kids who are "different" in some important way have a college experience that is very different from the mainstream expectation.

I enjoyed college despite being a nerdy gay kid — I made friends, joined an activity, dated some — but every time I found myself without plans on a Friday night, I felt like I was failing at college. There were fun times, but there were also stressful and lonely times. And I had friends who were more outside of that mainstream college culture than I was, and they look back on college as a difficult and isolating time. My social life is better now (in my 30s) than it was then, and I think that's the case for a lot of people.
201Reply
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Derfel started this thread Yesterday 10:39pm

derfel
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DerfelUDayna Evans
Yesterday 10:39pm



I've seen at least a half-dozen articles by female journalists that have taken advantage of this horrible event to push their names out for book deals and media interviews, trying to suggest that #yesallmen are at fault.
91Reply
peregondusoir
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PeregonUDerfel
Yesterday 10:42pm



At least half a dozen. That many? Wow. I get it - some people are glory-hounds. Can we not connect that to #YesAllWomen as a general trend, though? Otherwise, I will make you own /MensRights and the Drudge Report, just for funzies. Let's keep it focused.
281Reply
denwaf
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The Gutenberg DiscontinuityUDerfel
Yesterday 10:49pm



True, many males ( I being one of them) watch the crap hwood delivers, but we never ever thought ladies owe us sex. Or atleast I have never thought that.
21Reply
theroncorse
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The Other TheronUDerfel
Yesterday 11:00pm



In a country of 315 million, give or take. Whatever.
11Reply
derfel
Derfel
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DerfelUThe Other Theron
Yesterday 11:05pm



315 million journalists? NIGHTMARE
41Reply
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elaine layabout started this thread Yesterday 11:08pm

elainelayabout
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elaine layaboutUDayna Evans
Yesterday 11:08pm



ann hornaday has reading comprehension issues, given that elliot rodger didn't see himself as "shlubby" ... he wasn't overweight or unkempt, and not only did he think he was attractive, he thought he was a god

oh, and if you actually watch movies where the schlub gets the girl, he usually gets the girl by being funny and self deprecating ... and he never, ever drives a bmw
51Reply
traceacex
Trace
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TraceUelaine layabout
31 minutes ago



I was honestly just thinking this. There's really only a handful of examples I can think of that could fit how he apparently viewed himself. Pretty in Pink was the first one I thought of, which says a lot about how many recent films had the almighty, amazing, popular, rich guy get the girl. They're usually the ones picking up the pieces by the end of the movie and cast in a terrible light. This asshole wanted to be the rich guy in the movie, not the nerd.

I am sure there's some legitimate argument about media /reinforcing/ male expectations, but the seed is planted early on. Hell, I see it with my family and niece sometimes, this weird aversion toward "non-feminine" things, even though my niece doesn't care if she shits on blue pants or pink, it's all the same to her. Regardless, if you want to present the argument, at least present it when the situation fits. The movies I've seen made from Apatow don't really fit this asshole.
31Reply
Russianist
Russianist
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RussianistUelaine layabout
17 minutes ago



He apparently had some insecurities about his height and biracial appearance, and he wanted his external appearance to match his inner blonde golden god so the women would give him the sex he was entitled to. How Ann Hornaday gets that confused with a Seth Rogen character ending up with a Katherine Heigl one is a puzzler.
21Reply
elainelayabout
elaine layabout
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elaine layaboutURussianist
4 minutes ago



i'm not sure what this guy really thought of his looks ... given that he compulsively diva posed for photographs

my theory, though, is that his height (5'9") and ethnic looks were just excuses to avoid looking at his personality and to blame women, not himself, for being shallow and bigoted
1Reply
theRoo
Rooo sez BISH PLZ
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Rooo sez BISH PLZURussianist
A minute ago



Honestly? ER's underlying narrative was "I am entitled to sex without effort because I am a golden god".

The Apatow/Rogen narrative, which even Cracked references and which I have personally heard more than one NiceGuy ™ refer to in order to rationalize his own odious behavior, is "I should be rewarded with women and sex if I complete my personal version of Hero's Journey tasks".

I certainly see differences there, but I see more parallels than differences.

If you don't see them maybe it's because you're excusing them away, or maybe willing yourself not to.
1Reply
corey3rd started this thread Yesterday 10:43pm

corey3rd
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corey3rdUDayna Evans
Yesterday 10:43pm



Normally Judd Apatow movies merely make me contemplate things I should be doing instead of watching a Judd Apatow movie.

Maybe the reason women weren't attracted to that guy because they could sense he was a homicidal maniac?
311Reply
theroncorse
The Other Theron
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The Other TheronUcorey3rd
Yesterday 11:01pm



And yet imprisoned serial killers have groupies. It's a big world, I guess.
11Reply
corey3rd
corey3rd
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corey3rdUThe Other Theron
Yesterday 11:05pm



But notice they mostly get the groupies after they're caught and the girls don't have much fear of being part of the body count.
21Reply
theroncorse
The Other Theron
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The Other TheronUcorey3rd
Yesterday 11:08pm



Good point.

[Hunter]

Thanks Jack, looks like I need to do some reading, looks like a good place to start, much appreciate!

Chris Hedges wrote a very good book about New Atheism called "When Atheism Becomes Religion"

Hey I wanted to ask you, who was Barracuda talking about in that signature/quote of yours. That is funny, I wanted to know the context, I didnt see the thread for that discussion. Thanks!

[JackRiddler]

That's really unfair to Rogen and Apatow, at least whatever I've seen of their work, which I'd never imagined I'd be defending as anything other than basically harmless and on occasion ever-so slightly more sweet than stupid. (Wait, "Freaks and Geeks" was a lot better than that!)

There are actual current or recent series about heroic serial killers, such as Dexter, possibly the most repulsive show in history. The Following, afaik (and I don't) is about some anti-hero cult of serial killers whose (female) groupies spring them out of prison and serve as their soldiers and kill each other in the effort to win greater favor with the alphas. I believe the Blacklist is about a mass murderer recruited by the state as a helper with a license to kill (and torture) because he's so skilled at diabolical thinking, so he'll be able to stop terrorists. Jack Bauer offed 320+ antagonists, I believe (according to some youtube body count video, didn't watch that crap) and I hear at least two were bitches gunned down in cold blood for being seductive traitors. The crime and action-adventure shows have never suffered a shortage of femme fatales who fit Rodger's description of women generally. Speaking of mass murder at schools, Heathers (which I thought at the time was a pretty good satire) has been revived for a Broadway run. TV/film violence is glorified or at least valorized as "getting the goods" in an endless variety of ways: violence by the state, violence against the state, violence by criminals, violence against criminals - something for everyone. There are all kinds of fascism lite (and not so lite) shows. Tom Cruise is killing at the box office again this week. If you want to connect real-world body counts to TV and movies, at least take your pick from vast number of shows and films that center on killing, killing and more killing. "The 40-Year-Old Virgin" does not fit.

[jlaw172364]

Ah, so some editorial writer thinks it's Judd Apatow that's to blame. Now I know who to blame! It was Judd Apatow! Quick, have him arrested and seize all the schlock he's produced and burn it before someone kills again.

[Zombie Glenn Beck]

Thanks Jack, looks like I need to do some reading, looks like a good place to start, much appreciate!

Chris Hedges wrote a very good book about New Atheism called "When Atheism Becomes Religion"

Hey I wanted to ask you, who was Barracuda talking about in that signature/quote of yours. That is funny, I wanted to know the context, I didnt see the thread for that discussion. Thanks!

Googled it, got this strange link: http://omgili.com/thread/WOapK6QZrmnTF9 ... OZIwhbcwg/

Hope it helps.

[Hunter]

Thanks Jack, looks like I need to do some reading, looks like a good place to start, much appreciate!

Chris Hedges wrote a very good book about New Atheism called "When Atheism Becomes Religion"

Excellent, I will have to check that out, I wonder if this is along the lines of my own thinking. I dont know what New Atheism is unless perhaps it describes these Atheist extremists I used to run in to on various forums over the last several years, they are as zealous, or even worse, than even your most extreme fundamentalist Southern Baptist. Even as an Atheist myself I cannot to be around them they have turned Atheism in to a religion complete with dogma and intolerance of anyone who isnt part of their cult.

Is this the New Atheism you speak of. My Atheism simply stems from my practice of Buddhism, we dont believe in a Higher Power, we dont deny it or accept it, a higher power just simply plays no role in Buddhist philosophy but unlike a lot of atheists (or perhaps New Atheists) the existence or non-existence of God isnt really something we discuss or even concern ourselves with. Mostly, at the heart of the matter is the belief that you really cant know such a thing as God, assuming there is one, until you have prepared yourself properly to receive that higher knowledge about the Universe and our place in it. The process of preparation for this is of course Buddhism, specially the philosophy therein. The Buddha gave us a way to prepare our minds to receive higher knowledge of all things. No small feat, that can take millions of lifetimes but the nice thing about it is it is simply the practice of meditation, the calming of the mind, clearing the mind of the clutter so that you can think and see more clearly. There is a little more to it regarding attachment to impermanent things (all things are impermanent, they come and they go, attachment to such things causes happiness when it comes and misery when it goes, a roller coaster ride that will only keep you wanting more resulting in greed and constant thirst and hunger) which is the cause of our suffering and inability to achieve an enlightened state. But anyway. I am off on a tangent, my apologies!

[8bitagent]

@Hunter:

I def agree about firearms not needing to be necessary for these people hellbent on bloodshed.

As has been pointed out, in a very eerily similar event in the same city, the rich son of a hollywood director went on a killing rampage in 2001; killing four people.
His weapon of choice was a car.