How to Understand And Confront Holocaust Denial

[American Dream]

Jakell is recommending readers to a far right, white nationalist oriented site- he is not dumb, he knows he is breaking the rules of this place but he does it anyway. Tthe British Freedom Party is disgusting, and against the spirit of R.I.

The forum below is now open again to the general public, ie, you don't need to register to browse it:

My previous forum is now open for membership again, you will still have to register to view the contents though. I offer up this thread in particular as a magnificent example of this thread topic:

http://www.democracyforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=89723

It's a long one, but one that I may archive as it's full of great examples. For tireless researchers, the first 95 pages consist of the deniers on one hand versus regular forum members on the other, some of whom do a fairly good job.

The real deal though comes with the arrival of a new poster at post #949, who is a fecking Superman in this business. He doesn't chime in again till post #1023, but he then goes on to utterly destroy and dismay the deniers with his depth and breadth of knowledge. It's beautiful.

So, if anyone is interested in the subject matter of this thread, and wants to see a fairly practical demonstration of it, have a look. The thread is long and is a bit of a slow starter, so for those who haven't much time I suggest jumping in about half way through or, alternatively, go the the point I indicated

[Searcher08]

I find it beggars description that you perform such a disingenuous reframing and context removal as that as that..

Have you even read the thread referred? It is an example of a Holocaust Denial DEMOLITION JOB. It's purpose is to demonstrate and show an example of what it is like to DO THAT.

Perhaps the military strategy concept of 'taking the fight to the enemy' never entered your head? Or are you egocentric enough to think that fight is only worth fighting on YOUR terms?

The nearest YOU have come to a member of the far right is COPY PASTAING about them.

Unlike this thread, where you have posted nothing of PRACTICAL USE, just ideological thought pieces that are not even written by you.

[jakell]

I find it beggars description that you perform such a disingenuous reframing and context removal as that as that..

Have you even read the thread referred? It is an example of a Holocaust Denial DEMOLITION JOB. It's purpose is to demonstrate and show an example of what it is like to DO THAT.

Perhaps the military strategy concept of 'taking the fight to the enemy' never entered your head? Or are you egocentric enough to think that fight is only worth fighting on YOUR terms?

The nearest YOU have come to a member of the far right is COPY PASTAING about them.

Unlike this thread, where you have posted nothing of PRACTICAL USE, just ideological thought pieces that are not even written by you.

AD is correct insofar that there were British Nationalists and a smaller number of White Nationalists on that site, that was the whole point of me being there. A Leftist circle jerk wouldn't have yielded any of the information I was seeking (and probably a good amount of misinformation).

It certainly wasn't orientated towards these folks though, and they often got trounced and ridiculed by the other ordinary members there. This was sometimes heartwarming to see, that it is not just the keyboard heroes who can perform this feat and that common decency can win out too. The example I gave above (until the formidable Mr T. turns up) is a good example of this.

It's a bit silly of AD to continue making these claims now that anyone can visit that forum. What he has done though is to make the whole subject matter quite repellent and that in itself may provide an adequate smokescreen.

[Searcher08]

I find it beggars description that you perform such a disingenuous reframing and context removal as that as that..

Have you even read the thread referred? It is an example of a Holocaust Denial DEMOLITION JOB. It's purpose is to demonstrate and show an example of what it is like to DO THAT.

Perhaps the military strategy concept of 'taking the fight to the enemy' never entered your head? Or are you egocentric enough to think that fight is only worth fighting on YOUR terms?

The nearest YOU have come to a member of the far right is COPY PASTAING about them.

Unlike this thread, where you have posted nothing of PRACTICAL USE, just ideological thought pieces that are not even written by you.

AD is correct insofar that there were British Nationalists and a smaller number of White Nationalists on that site, that was the whole point of me being there. A Leftist circle jerk wouldn't have yielded any of the information I was seeking (and probably a good amount of misinformation).

It certainly wasn't orientated towards these folks though, and they often got trounced and ridiculed by the other ordinary members there. This was sometimes heartwarming to see, that it is not just the keyboard heroes who can perform this feat and that common decency can win out too. The example I gave above (until the formidable Mr T. turns up) is a good example of this.

It's a bit silly of AD to continue making these claims now that anyone can visit that forum. What he has done though is to make the whole subject matter quite repellent and that in itself may provide an adequate smokescreen.

I appreciate you making your post that provides this exemplar - most people find it easier to make sense of something if there is something to make (literal) sense of in front of them. The majority of what is in this thread is 'digital', non sensory-based and interpretive.

[Zombie Glenn Beck]

I for one, appreciate having the watchful eye of AD on our forum.

[Searcher08]

I for one, appreciate having the watchful eye of AD on our forum.

Watchful eyes are fine but when those eyes identify information which is practical and useful and relevant to the topic title as an existential threat, maybe they should be checked at the opticians.

[American Dream]

Pathetic and disgusting but these folks are showing their true colors...

[jakell]

I for one, appreciate having the watchful eye of AD on our forum.

Watchful eyes are fine but when those eyes identify information which is practical and useful and relevant to the topic title as an existential threat, maybe they should be checked at the opticians.

There's no 'watchful eye' anyway, outside of the C&P's you get mainly the repetition of an internal dialogue. If more folks haven't noticed this then it's due to that 'smokescreen'. I should think that some have noticed this, but decided it's not worth the trouble.

[8bitagent]

Holocaust denial/revisionism exists because the full horror of that time period is hard for the human psyche to understand. Hell I wish it was all fiction. While yes, governments, especially communist ones in the 20th century
killed more people collectively than the Nazis...and yes, the Cambodian late 70's genocide and the 'Rape of Nanking and other crimes by Japan are unthinkably horrific...the extensive, obsessive nature of the German
agenda to rid world Jewry and other "undesirable" definitely rises to such a cosmic level of wtf evil. I'd want to deny the holocaust happened too, shit's so meta evil.

Here's what I don't get...if you're a neo Nazi type, why would you DENY the holocaust? Wouldn't you be yelling "six million more?"

There is no consistent reason behind it, it has simply become a tenet of the NS end of White Nationalism and a tenet is usually something to be upheld without much examination.

It's partly about rehabilitating the image of the Nazis in addition to providing a vehicle for a description of the continuing guile of the Jews. The thread I mentioned provides some insight into the mindsets involved as they are operating fairly openly there.

As I posted in another thread....

European neo Nazi groups and far right racialists beginning to support Israel's hardline anti Arab policies
http://www.newsweek.com/far-right-polit ... rael-68583
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blume ... 56497.html
http://www.haaretz.com/news/german-neo- ... m-1.247193
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... right.html

[8bitagent]

Neo Nazis who deny the Holocaust's true magnitude do not respect the German Nazis...why? Because the Nazis were METICULOUS in keeping records of every one of the millions of Jews they slaughtered, imprisoned and tortured.

It's funny tho reading Anders Breivik's manifesto where he says Hitler should have sided with Jews instead of the Arabs.

[jakell]

Neo Nazis who deny the Holocaust's true magnitude do not respect the German Nazis...why? Because the Nazis were METICULOUS in keeping records of every one of the millions of Jews they slaughtered, imprisoned and tortured.

It's funny tho reading Anders Breivik's manifesto where he says Hitler should have sided with Jews instead of the Arabs.

The exact details here escape me, but I'm pretty sure that the Nazis destroyed a lot of those records, forcing historians to reconstruct numbers from things such as train records.

It's 'gaps' such as these that deniers tend to focus on, places where direct proof is lacking. The first serious appeal to the inaccuracy of numbers is given by 'Wotan' in post #9** of the thread I linked to, this is very early in the thread and is a rather shotgun type approach that gets honed down later on.


** I may start pasting this stuff in if it becomes worthwhile for me to bother. with the present level of misdirection there doesn't seem much point.

[Searcher08]

Pathetic and disgusting but these folks are showing their true colors...

True bullshit always takes a while to come out:
Here is how an outside reader can check which is which:

Read through ADs posts on this thread with the frame "What of this is practical relevant and useful in understanding and confronting holocaust denial?"

Then read through the exemplar post jakell provided to see an example of how someone actually *wins* against racists and deniers.

Here is a hint...
It wasn't by posting a tsunami of crossposted CopyPasta

[jakell]

Pathetic and disgusting but these folks are showing their true colors...

True bullshit always takes a while to come out:
Here is how an outside reader can check which is which:

Read through ADs posts on this thread with the frame "What of this is practical relevant and useful in understanding and confronting holocaust denial?"

Then read through the exemplar post jakell provided to see an example of how someone actually *wins* against racists and deniers.

Here is a hint...
It wasn't by posting a tsunami of crossposted CopyPasta

You are being far too kind here S8. On this topic at least I was more or less a second fiddle to those who had more patience, stamina and knowledge than I possess.

It's hard to 'win' against these folks at the best of times because they usually fade away when the going gets tough, just to emerge again a little further down the line. It just happened that on this particular thread they seem to have been overconfident and stayed the course long enough to be quite thoroughly dissected. The thread itself (IMO) contains far more useful material that I could provide, it just requires a bit of digging.

This was three years ago though, and I don't know how relevant it is today (even though it is the thread topic). As I said to 8bitagent there is far more going on here than simple historical argument (which is difficult in it's own right), it is about encountering a certain mindset, and questioning a tenet of a belief system, one could place almost any example of cognitive dissonance into these equations.

[American Dream]

It's a good thing we're all anti-fascists around here...

[jakell]

Just an addendum here for any tireless researchers who may happen on this thread..

The forum I linked to earlier is now closed, I sort of took it for granted that it would always be there (silly I know), so that wonderful thread is now lost.
I really should have archived it the Data Dump, after all that is what it's for. Instead of actually doing some proper work though I let myself get distracted by nonsense.