Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

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Re: Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

Postby coffin_dodger » Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:01 am

American Dream » Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:20 am wrote:You can readily find that I have been a strong, strong critic of U.S. power over the years, as can anyone. Why you persist with that same tired argument is hard to fathom.

As to the argument that Putin will be a hedge against Uncle Sam, that argument was indeed used in favor of Stalin and Mao and it was deficient then, just as it is deficient now.


LOL!

Your 'revert to mean' strategy is now completely transparent. It used to put me off engaging with you, but now I find it fascinating. The predictability is rigid and unwavering, as is the intractability. You're a great asset to this board, AD - as a leading indicator for no hope or change. Thanks!
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Re: Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

Postby American Dream » Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:42 am

coffin_dodger » Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:01 am wrote:Your 'revert to mean' strategy is now completely transparent. It used to put me off engaging with you, but now I find it fascinating. The predictability is rigid and unwavering, as is the intractability. You're a great asset to this board, AD - as a leading indicator for no hope or change. Thanks!


You consider that "mean"? I don't see my words as particularly mean- especially given the quality of your own comments. I am holding out for a minimal standard of reason and evidence, at least. I have an unending hope that we can and will increase the rigour in Rigorous Intuition, somehow.

The argument that Putin's Russia is good because Uncle Sam is bad is really an area where I think we can do much, much better.
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Re: Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

Postby stillrobertpaulsen » Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:37 pm

American Dream » Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:00 pm wrote:Thinking about Robert Parry posting a defense of Putin- and this is not the first time- raises the possibility of his being co-opted by the pro-Russian conspiracy/propaganda network described in this thread.


You know, I've thought about this for several days now. I've been debating with myself whether or not to respond to this charge and risk pouring gasoline on another flame-fest right when the embers were dying out. But then I thought, this is the perfect time! Since you are currently on suspension for a week, this should give you plenty of time to research the answer to my question, as opposed to saying, "I'm too busy to dig it up now" as you have done previously. And yes, American Dream, I'm addressing this question to you and you alone since you are the original poster to raise this charge. Take all the time you need.

When and where has Robert Parry ever defended Putin? Looking through this thread, this article by Danny Schechter is the only place where Parry had something to say on the subject of Putin.

“The original lie behind Official Washington’s latest ‘group think’ was that Russian President Vladimir Putin instigated the crisis in Ukraine as part of some diabolical scheme to reclaim the territory of the defunct Soviet Union, including Estonia and other Baltic states. Though not a shred of U.S. intelligence supported this scenario, all the ‘smart people’ of Washington just ‘knew’ it to be true. …

“The once-acknowledged – though soon forgotten – reality was that the crisis was provoked last year by the European Union proposing an association agreement with Ukraine while U.S. neocons and other hawkish politicos and pundits envisioned using the Ukraine gambit as a way to undermine Putin inside Russia.… In other words, from the start, Putin was the target of the Ukraine initiative, not the instigator.”


If this is indeed what you are referring to when you say Parry posted a "defense" of Putin, I have to ask: are you fucking kidding?! All he's doing is spelling out the realities of who did what and when regarding the Ukraine crisis. More details on that here. To say that Parry is defending Putin in the quote above is the equivalent of your average neo-con saying that I'm defending Saddam Hussein for saying he posed no threat to the US when the Bush administration invaded Iraq.

If, in fact, this is not the post on this thread you're referring to where Parry articulates a "defense" for Putin, please cite the one that does. Or since you say "this is not the first time" he's done this, please link to where he has. Not where he spells out what's really happening in the Ukraine, not where he points out that Putin was instrumental in preventing Obama from invading Syria, but where he actually goes beyond criticizing US foreign policy to DEFEND PUTIN HIMSELF. Because frankly, I've looked quite thoroughly and have come up empty. Furthermore, your "co-opted" charge reeks of guilt-by-association. In my book, Parry has more than enough creds over the past few decades to get a better benefit of the doubt than having to defend himself against such a baseless character assassination. Witch-hunt much?
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Re: Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

Postby American Dream » Mon Oct 20, 2014 1:26 pm

https://avtonom.org/en/news/moscow-auto ... ainian-war

Moscow Autonomous Action on the Ukrainian war

ImageThis text was written as an answer to our foreign friends' questions about situation in the Eastern Ukraine and Russian anarchists' attitude towards that. We hope it will be of use to everybody interested in these matters.

The situation is complex and controversial and you should understand that the text below does not (and can't) reflect the opinion of all Russian anti-fascists and anti-capitalists. We discussed this within our group, but even here we have a couple of contradicting points of view.

Anyway, our organization ("Autonomous Action") mostly agrees to this anti-war statement of left-wing movements. We do not support Ukrainian government (neither government, in fact), and undoubtedly there are some harsh nationalist tendencies in the Ukraine today. However, even less is our support for Russian government and for so called 'Novorossiya republics'. It seems that fascists are fighting each other at both sides in this war, backed by capitalists. Additionally, for Putin this war is a chance to distract Russian people from financial crisis and recession in country's economic system, while for Poroshenko the war is useful as a way to channel people's strive for changes into patriotic madness, instead of trying to continue what had started in Maydan and establish real self-government.

Concerning the attitude of Donbass people, we would say that most of them do not want anything except 'stop bombing us, both of you'. Leaders of pro-Russian paramilitares several times told in public that "Donbass people don't want to fight, that's why Russia must directly invade". In fact, politically passive population is characteristic for many exUSSR territories. However, it is known that in the spring of 2014 opinion polls showed that only about 20% of Donbass people supported separating from the Ukraine and joining Russia. Of course, right now it is very difficult to conduct any opinion polls in war-torn land. Moreover, tens of thousands left Donbass as refugees - both to Russia and to western Ukraine.

We do not support the view that Donbass war is some kind of 'resistance against Ukrainian fascists'. As stated before, there are nationalist tendencies in contemporary Ukraine, but hardly more than in any other exUSSR country. In Russia, patriotic, imperialist and outright fascist propaganda is at least as often heard as in the Ukraine or even more. And pro-Russian 'people's republics' of Donbass mimic this. Judging by what we know from there, there is no sign that any changes happen there which can be considered 'leftist' or at least 'social democratic'. Vice versa, they keep issuing 'laws' like prohibiting homosexual relations or establishing 'dominant role' of Orthodox Church in the region. The rhetoric of their leaders is exactly what you call 'red-brownism': a paradoxical mixture of right-wing conservatism and Soviet-like imperialism. We know about cases of ethnic cleansing under their rule: at least it happened with Jews and Roma people. So, it comes as no surprise that European fascists are joining them.

Thus, we believe that 'anti-fascist struggle' is here a simple label, which does not have anything to do with the reality. And the reality is that these 'republics' are an attempt of Russian imperialists to back pro-Russian nationalist groups in the region and to provide them with weapon, equipment and lately with armed forces in order to create havoc there. The final aim is, perhaps, to use the situation as a tool in stopping the Ukraine from joining NATO, and, as stated before, in distracting attention of Russian population towards some external enemy. It is ironic that at the same time Russian laws proclaim any call to separatism to be a grave crime, and you can be sent to prison for several years if you demand a referendum like the one conducted in the Crimea in March 2014.

It's difficult to say anything about left or anti-capitalist resistance in Donbass right now. The region is in the hands of tens or hundreds of paramilitary groups, only very loosely united under self-proclaimed 'ministers' and 'governors'. It is very possible that some local leaders can stick to left-wing political views. However, there are no signs from them, no clear political statements. Additionally, it's obvious that the region is under heavy Russian influence (enough to say that large part of military leaders are Russian citizens), and of course Putin is not very much interested in real anti-capitalist resistance there. Nationalists, monarchists and Orthodox zealots are much better for him.

We understand that Putin's propaganda really works well on people in the Western countries, because they are sick and tired of their own leaders and Putin looks like 'hooligan' who threatens these leaders and scares them. This propaganda already drove some international fighters to Donbass republics. However, we, living under Putin's regime, would like to warn you against thinking about him as some kind of Che Guevara. He is not. Contemporary Russian elite is a rather plain company of rich capitalists, mostly united around persons who are either Putin's old friends or somehow related to Russian secret service ('Federal Security Service', FSB). It would be absurd to think that they are progressive from any point of view. They simply want to stay in power for as long as they could, because in case they lost this power, they would be immediately sent to trial (corruption among the authorities is immense here), and they clearly understand that. That's it.

Having said that, it is important to emphasize that Russian anti-fascists (even those who were considered to be left-wing or anti-authoritarian) do not have a unified point of view on the Ukraine war. Some believe that even these right-wing Novorossiya republics are better than 'Ukrainian fascists'. Several antifa groups declared themselves 'Russian patriots', and, to our mind, are now a kind of 'left-wing fascists'. We know of at least one Russian militant antifa who was killed while fighting for Novorossiya. At the same time, several Ukrainian anarchist anti-fascists fought against Novorossiya, within Ukrainian volunteer squads. Sadly, it looks like the whole notion of 'anti-fascism' is so much worn out in propagandistic use (from both sides of the conflict), that it is impossible to seriously apply it to anything or anybody.

Autonomous Action - Moscow
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Re: Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

Postby Belligerent Savant » Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:13 pm

.

It seems this latest copy-paste effort -- in addition to whatever value the content itself may well bring to the topic -- serves the additional benefit of flagging/underscoring the fact that the questions raised in stillrobertpaulsen's prior post have yet to be addressed.

Ignoring or simply gathering intel?

(or, shall we simply be graced with another copy/paste offering? Stay tuned...)
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Re: Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

Postby stillrobertpaulsen » Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:26 pm

Belligerent Savant » Mon Oct 20, 2014 2:13 pm wrote:.

It seems this latest copy-paste effort -- in addition to whatever value the content itself may well bring to the topic -- serves the additional benefit of flagging/underscoring the fact that the questions raised in stillrobertpaulsen's prior post have yet to be addressed.

Ignoring or simply gathering intel?

(or, shall we simply be graced with another copy/paste offering? Stay tuned...)


I couldn't have said it better myself, Belligerent Savant. Then again, Joe Pesci had a great response in Goodfellas: "What am I, a mirage?"



So what's happening, American Dream? I know I said take all the time you need, but it's been over a month. You gonna dance me my fuckin' drink or what?
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Re: Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

Postby American Dream » Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:36 pm

stillrobertpaulsen » Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:37 pm wrote:
When and where has Robert Parry ever defended Putin?


I'm not going to get into a thing over this or anything, really- given the suspensions that I have already faced, it doesn't seem wise or helpful to engage in (potentially) inflammatory exchanges. In fact I've got to wonder about the motivations of a few posters here who seem to be fanning the flames.

Anyone who wants to evaluate the general editorial position of Consortium News towards the clash of empires in Eastern Europe can do so for themselves and come to their own conclusions. For the record, I consider Robert Parry a good man, just perhaps misguided, and surely always in need of money.
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Re: Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

Postby stillrobertpaulsen » Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:09 pm

American Dream » Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:36 pm wrote:
stillrobertpaulsen » Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:37 pm wrote:
When and where has Robert Parry ever defended Putin?


I'm not going to get into a thing over this or anything, really- given the suspensions that I have already faced, it doesn't seem wise or helpful to engage in (potentially) inflammatory exchanges.


I agree. I'm not asking for that. I'm asking for proof for the assertion you made. That doesn't require an exchange. Just a link. I know you know how to copy and paste; I'll settle for that too where it concerns my central question that you quoted above.

American Dream » Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:36 pm wrote:In fact I've got to wonder about the motivations of a few posters here who seem to be fanning the flames.


Nobody has been fanning any flames here for over a month. There's been no activity on this thread period until you resurrected it. Belligerent Savant was merely pointing out the obvious elephant in the room. So was I.

American Dream » Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:36 pm wrote:Anyone who wants to evaluate the general editorial position of Consortium News towards the clash of empires in Eastern Europe can do so for themselves and come to their own conclusions.


Yes they can, but again, you're dodging my point: I already looked and there's no there there! If you're not going to issue a retraction, a simple link will suffice.

American Dream » Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:36 pm wrote:For the record, I consider Robert Parry a good man, just perhaps misguided, and surely always in need of money.


Good man? Agreed. Misguided? Disagree completely. Surely always in need of money? So am I. What's your point in bringing that up?


edited to correct the spelling on Belligerent Savant's name
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Re: Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:42 pm

For the record -- document away. Nobody else here is going to suspend you.

Nobody here is going to take it as "inflammatory," just basic protocol.

This is what we're here for.

I mean. Allegedly.
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Re: Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

Postby American Dream » Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:11 pm

Wombaticus Rex » Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:42 pm wrote:For the record -- document away. Nobody else here is going to suspend you.

Nobody here is going to take it as "inflammatory," just basic protocol.

This is what we're here for.

I mean. Allegedly.


Can you please explain to me the specific reason(s) I was suspended before?

If I understand the offense and where the line is, then it will be much easier to navigate my way around these parts.
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Re: Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:07 pm

That's a very funny question! You got suspended because of your entire online MO -- the passive aggressive snipes at people, stirring shit up and then acting like you don't see people responding, and overall, maintaining your stellar track record of being the most intelligent and subtle troll we've ever had here at Rigorous Intuition to date (with the possible exception of Jeff Wells, of course -- jury is still out on that one).

A great way to reverse that trend would be to treat the people in this thread who are asking you questions like normal human beings, who are just as smart as you, don't have "problematic" or "questionable" motivations, and would earnestly like answers from you! Give it a shot! Could be exciting.
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Re: Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

Postby American Dream » Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:32 pm

As I said before, "If I understand the offense and where the line is, then it will be much easier to navigate my way around these parts." Surely there are many, many others here who could easily be accused of such "trolling", using such very vague criteria, especially when and if there are real differences in values and worldview. Probably we are all very familiar with the murky and generally pointless process which can begin with subjectively-based arguments such as, "I'm not a troll- you're a troll!"

I'm having trouble wrapping my head around any consistent and clear principles being applied here. Was there a specific guideline or guidelines violated? If so, how concretely, might any of us know that a particular poster is passing near to, or over that line?
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Re: Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:57 pm

American Dream » Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:32 pm wrote:Probably we are all very familiar with the murky and generally pointless process which can begin with subjectively-based arguments such as, "I'm not a troll- you're a troll!"


Aye, but few of us are as fluent as you at the "murky and generally pointless" game. This latest detour is a great example. "Gosh, I'd explain myself, but I'm just so flustered by the behavior of the moderators! Let's discuss that."

No.

Obviously, known to you and anyone else here, no rules exist against "Explaining Yourself," "Taking Responsibility for Your Own Words," "Offering Helpful Supplemental Links." While I appreciate your reflexive efforts to make this into a conversation about rules we've explained and discussed at mind-numbing length billions of times, unless you're linking to hate sites -- in an effort to document your assertions about author Robert Parry repeatedly defending Vladimir Putin -- it is impossible for you to break any rules, regulations, bylaws, Federal Code, safety standards or tamper-proof seals. Proceed.
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Re: Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

Postby American Dream » Tue Oct 21, 2014 3:08 pm

I don't have any idea whatsoever about a specific guideline I may have violated- and my very best guess is that you don't either.

I want to get on the same page about that- even if the real answer is that you acted thoughtlessly and/or inconsistently. I'll be happy to address any and all other concerns that might be helpful, after.

Quite honestly, something smells kind of "off" here to me.
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Re: Global Research, Chossudovsky, Russia, Propaganda

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Tue Oct 21, 2014 3:16 pm

American Dream » Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:08 pm wrote:I don't have any idea whatsoever about a specific guideline I may have violated- and my very best guess is that you don't either.

I want to get on the same page about that- even if the real answer is that you acted thoughtlessly and/or inconsistently. I'll be happy to address any and all other concerns that might be helpful, after.

Quite honestly, something smells kind of "off" here to me.


:thumbsup

I am a relentlessly psychotic power-mad force of destruction and all my acts are arbitrary; capricious. I have a huge list of secret crimes that I will never show any of you.

With that addressed, please proceed with your explanation of why you believe the author Robert Parry has repeatedly defended Vladimir Putin.
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