How Bad Is Global Warming?

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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Ben D » Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:12 pm

Iamwhomiam » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:25 am wrote:Wobbling on Climate Change By PIERS J. SELLERS NOV. 11, 2014
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This whole system of observation, theory and prediction is tested daily in forecast models and almost continuously in climate models. So, if you have no faith in the predictive capability of climate models, you should also discard your faith in weather forecasts and any other predictions based on Newtonian mechanics.
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Hell....the weather forecasts can't be relied upon a few days ahead....so it follows that my lack of faith is extended to climate forecasting a century ahead.... and pray tell how Newtonian mechanics is the basis of climate science modelled predictions?
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Iamwhomiam » Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:20 pm

...and pray tell how Newtonian mechanics is the basis of climate science modelled predictions?


Seriously? This from the guy who want to blame it all on the Sun?
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby DrEvil » Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:01 pm

Obviously the Bible is a more accurate tool for predicting the future. :eeyaa

And so sayeth the Lord: Tomorrow there will be rain, and snow above 500 meters.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Ben D » Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:35 pm

Iamwhomiam » Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:20 am wrote:
...and pray tell how Newtonian mechanics is the basis of climate science modelled predictions?


Seriously? This from the guy who want to blame it all on the Sun?

Yes...please explain how the anthropogenic CO2 GHG climate sensitivity is based on Newtonian mechanics?
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby DrEvil » Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:23 am

Newtonian mechanics is also known as classical mechanics (as opposed to quantum mechanics).

From wikipedia:

Classical mechanics is concerned with the set of physical laws describing the motion of bodies under the action of a system of forces.


Do you seriously not understand this, or are you just trolling?
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Iamwhomiam » Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:11 am

Do you really believe materials behave the same whether warmed or cooled?

Trying my best not to be rude, Ben, but honestly, meditate upon your question and I'm sure you'll come to understand the correct answer. If that doesn't bring a positive result, an epiphany, then try contemplating this first in a freezer and then afterwards in a sauna and this, I guarantee you, will answer your question. Fire and Ice. And why they're incompatible.

If that still doesn't work, we'll have to back-up just a bit and have you meditate upon "mathematical modeling."

Or you could write the fellow a letter and ask him to explain the meaning of his comment and to explain it to you.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Ben D » Thu Nov 13, 2014 6:01 pm

DrEvil » Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:23 am wrote:Newtonian mechanics is also known as classical mechanics (as opposed to quantum mechanics).

From wikipedia:

Classical mechanics is concerned with the set of physical laws describing the motion of bodies under the action of a system of forces.


Do you seriously not understand this, or are you just trolling?

Yes of course I understand...it's elementary. So where does that put you....since you ridicule my grasp of the science wrt the ridiculous assertion concerning Newtonian mechanics and AGW, it should be a simple task for you to explain to me and other readers how Newtonian mechanics is related to CO2 GHG AGW temperature predictions.

I await in heightened anticipation for your enlightened response...
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Ben D » Thu Nov 13, 2014 6:14 pm

Iamwhomiam » Fri Nov 14, 2014 1:11 am wrote:Do you really believe materials behave the same whether warmed or cooled?

Trying my best not to be rude, Ben, but honestly, meditate upon your question and I'm sure you'll come to understand the correct answer. If that doesn't bring a positive result, an epiphany, then try contemplating this first in a freezer and then afterwards in a sauna and this, I guarantee you, will answer your question. Fire and Ice. And why they're incompatible.

If that still doesn't work, we'll have to back-up just a bit and have you meditate upon "mathematical modeling."

Or you could write the fellow a letter and ask him to explain the meaning of his comment and to explain it to you.

You are not so much being rude Iam, but you, like DrEvil, are being condescending as a result of your lack of rigorous intuition and/or critical reading/comprehension skills.

Hint...you are both presently on the wrong track so far as my context...I have been referring to the fact of the non-Newtonian agw aspect of the IPCC AGW climate model forecasting that is not present in weather model forecasting, ie. the anthropogenic CO2 climate sensitivity factor as the predominate cause of climate change.... Iow, skepticism of agw is not based on the Newtonian component of the models, but the non-Newtonian aspect, which aspect is not present in weather forecasts.

For your reference I once again post the statement* made by the lead scientist at NASA and see the point I raise....his logic is flawed and deceptive....and you both fell for it! For agw skeptics, the newtonian science component in both weather and climate models is not an issue. Hence it is logical for skeptics to debate the validity of the agw climate models but not weather models, even though they both are based on Newtonian mechanics.

The lead scientist at NASA obviously was not aware that barely half of American Meteorological Society meteorologists believe global warming is occurring and humans are the primary cause, before ha made that statement.

* "So, if you have no faith in the predictive capability of climate models, you should also discard your faith in weather forecasts and any other predictions based on Newtonian mechanics".
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Iamwhomiam » Fri Nov 14, 2014 2:50 am

Ben, It's getting so that I find it difficult to read your comments. I have reams of scientific data on which my beliefs are based and yours are based upon nothing more than your own unfounded skepticism.

And as far as this goes, my "lack of rigorous intuition and/or critical reading/comprehension skills."

How very rude you are, dear fellow! I asked you to focus your comments to the discussion at hand, the latest development of AR 5, the systhesis report. I've asked you to read it. You've refused to. you don't know what it contains, but you want to argue about something hypothetical someone said about the report's findings that I well understand but obviously you do not, and now you want to turn your ignorance of newtonian mechanics interplay with climate into your 'gotcha' moment?

You wrongly feel in command of this thread Ben and want to redirect it to your nonsensical whimsy.

So, Ben - I'm cutting you off. If you want to discuss specifics of the report, I'll be glad to, but if you want me to keep pursuing your illogical path down your rabbit holes, I'm done playing that game with you. It has been unrewarding in any way. (But not entirely. You did teach me what a genius James Watt is.)

Although I wish you would read the report to debate its specifics intelligently and maturely, history leads me to believe you won't be reading it.

So enjoy your discussion with yourself. I'm boycotting you until you focus your comments upon the current topic; the IPCC AR 5 Synthesis report.

The stakes are ever higher and I'm no longer willing to be toyed with about so serious an issue.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Ben D » Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:16 am

^ Iam...how am in being rude....look at your post of Fri Nov 14, 2014 1:11 am I quoted....were you not commenting on my comment of Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:35 am concerning the ongoing discussion wrt the head Nasa scientist's statement about Newtonian mechanics being the basis of agw climate and weather model predictions ? The IPCC AR 5 Synthesis report is a completely different subject.
There is That which was not born, nor created, nor evolved. If it were not so, there would never be any refuge from being born, or created, or evolving. That is the end of suffering. That is God**.

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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Iamwhomiam » Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:45 am

This was rude: "You are not so much being rude Iam, but you, like DrEvil, are being condescending as a result of your lack of rigorous intuition and/or critical reading/comprehension skills."

Not condecension at all, but simply physics.

The NASA lead scientist was commenting upon the synthesis report findings. Read it, it's a short 16 page read, the report for policymakers. you want to go deeper, read the entire 116 pages.


Crossposting from here:

So Fracking is now being introduced into the UK. It should be opposed.

NY awaits the release of a NY State Department of Health report on the industry's health impacts before our Governor will allow it or prohibit it.

A very good letter, an opinion piece, was published in our local paper today and I'd like to share it with you with the hope some information it relates will be helpful in fighting fracking in the UK.

Fracking numbers add up to environmental nightmare

By Heather Leibowitz, Commentary
Published 2:12 pm, Wednesday, November 12, 2014

New Yorkers continue to wait with bated breath for the Health Department's study on fracking, which Gov. Andrew Cuomo says will come by year's end. But does New York really need this study to decide its fate?

Scarcely a month goes by without some new fracking incident adding to the toll of damage done. Just over a year ago, we published our findings in a report called "Fracking by the Numbers." In the report, we looked at key measures of risks to our water, air, land and climate.

Contamination of drinking water is one of the key threats posed by fracking. In reviewing state records, we found more than 1,000 documented cases where dirty drilling has contaminated groundwater or other drinking water sources. While such contamination can happen at several points in the fracking process — spills of fracking fluid, well blowouts, leaks around the well bore — perhaps the greatest threat to our water comes from the toxic waste that fracking generates.

Often laced with cancer-causing and even radioactive material, this fracking waste has leaked from waste pits into groundwater, has been dumped into rivers and streams, and spread onto roadways.

How much of this waste are we talking about? Using state and industry-submitted data, we calculated that fracking generated 280 billion gallons of toxic wastewater in 2012 alone. That's enough to flood all of New York City in a four-foot toxic lagoon, or fill the Empire State Building more than 1,000 times over.

And yet, this toxic fracking waste is exempt from our nation's hazardous waste laws.

We also looked at how much water is used by fracking—a crucial question, especially in arid Western states in the midst of the fracking frenzy. Again, using data submitted by fracking operators, we calculated that fracking has used 250 billion gallons of fresh water since 2005. And unlike other water uses, to the extent that fracking converts this water into toxic waste that is injected deep down into the ground, water used for fracking is gone for good.

The numbers on fracking look equally appalling with respect to our health, our natural heritage, and the planet.

With a growing number of residents experiencing illness with the onset of nearby fracking operations, we found that fracking operations produced 450,000 tons of air pollution in one year.

As pristine landscapes have been covered with well pads, compressor stations, access roads, and other drilling infrastructure, we estimate that fracking has directly degraded 360,000 acres of land since 2005.

And finally, as fracking boosters have sought to win over the green-minded, we calculated that well completions alone — not counting the rest of fracking operations — have produced 100 million metric tons of global warming pollution since 2005. Looking at the full life cycle of production and use, the global warming impacts of dirty gas could well rival that of coal.

Our calculations understate the true toll of fracking. Fracking also inflicts other damage we did not quantify in our report, ranging from contamination of residential wells to ruined roads to earthquakes near disposal sites.

Viewed in their totality, the numbers on fracking add up to an environmental nightmare. Given the number and severity of threats posed by fracking, constructing a regulatory regime sufficient to protect our water and our health — much less enforcing it at more than 80,000 wells, plus processing and waste disposal sites across the country — seems implausible at best. At the end of the day, protecting our environment and public health will require a ban on fracking.

At the federal level, President Barack Obama can do two things to at least limit the damage. First, as the Bureau of Land management mulls weak rules for fracking on public lands, the president should insist on following a key recommendation of the administration's advisory panel to keep "unique and/or sensitive areas ... off limits to drilling." At a minimum, that means quashing the oil and gas industry's bid to frack inside our national forests, on the doorsteps of our national parks, or in places that provide drinking water for millions of Americans.

Second, the president should call for an end to the loopholes that make fracking exempt from key provisions of our nation's environmental laws.

To the dire fracking numbers presented in our research, we should add a more hopeful one: Last month, the People's Climate March united over 300,000 concerned citizens from across the United States, demonstrating that the public is indeed concerned about fracking and other extractive processes that damage the environment. Perhaps it is time Gov. Andrew Cuomo, Obama and Congress begin to show indications of similar concern.

Heather Leibowitz is the director of Environment New York & Policy Center.

http://www.timesunion.com/opinion/article/Fracking-numbers-add-up-to-environmental-nightmare-5888326.php

The Great Sacandaga Reservoir In NY's Adirondack Park holds 283 billion gallons of water.
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Ben D » Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:29 am

Iamwhomiam » Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:45 pm wrote:This was rude: "You are not so much being rude Iam, but you, like DrEvil, are being condescending as a result of your lack of rigorous intuition and/or critical reading/comprehension skills."

Not condecension at all, but simply physics.

The NASA lead scientist was commenting upon the synthesis report findings. Read it, it's a short 16 page read, the report for policymakers. you want to go deeper, read the entire 116 pages.

Sorry Iam...but this was your post here, Wobbling on Climate Change, that is the basis of the discussion with you and DrEvil. The storyline is by Piers J. Sellers, who is the acting director of earth science at NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center when he met with Representative Steve Stockman, a Republican from Texas who spent a couple of hours at NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center.

Mr Sellers was not commenting about any 116 page report for policy makers. I don't mean to be rude by pointing this out....it is only done to clear up the confusion....sorry.
There is That which was not born, nor created, nor evolved. If it were not so, there would never be any refuge from being born, or created, or evolving. That is the end of suffering. That is God**.

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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby DrEvil » Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:02 am

Ben D » Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:01 am wrote:
DrEvil » Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:23 am wrote:Newtonian mechanics is also known as classical mechanics (as opposed to quantum mechanics).

From wikipedia:

Classical mechanics is concerned with the set of physical laws describing the motion of bodies under the action of a system of forces.


Do you seriously not understand this, or are you just trolling?

Yes of course I understand...it's elementary. So where does that put you....since you ridicule my grasp of the science wrt the ridiculous assertion concerning Newtonian mechanics and AGW, it should be a simple task for you to explain to me and other readers how Newtonian mechanics is related to CO2 GHG AGW temperature predictions.

I await in heightened anticipation for your enlightened response...


They use physics to model climate predictions. :wallhead:
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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby Ben D » Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:43 am

^I take that as a reluctant acceptance of my point, and a readiness to move on....
There is That which was not born, nor created, nor evolved. If it were not so, there would never be any refuge from being born, or created, or evolving. That is the end of suffering. That is God**.

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Re: How Bad Is Global Warming?

Postby DrEvil » Fri Nov 14, 2014 6:41 am

What the everlasting fuck are you on (about)?
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