Why is Counterpunch vile?

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Why is Counterpunch vile?

Postby American Dream » Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:46 pm

http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/01/wh ... -vile.html

Wednesday, January 26, 2011

Why is Counterpunch vile?

I just noticed Bill Weinberg's answer to the above question, and thought it worth extracting here.

Excuse me, running "journalism" by the Holocaust-denier (and apparent collaborationist with the Lukashenko dictatorship) Israel Shamir is not vile? Making a cause celebre of fellow Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel is not vile? Providing a soapbox for Bosnia genocide denial is not vile? Cheering on Ahmadinejad's electoral fraud is not vile? Cheering on the mass-murdering jihadis in Iraq is not vile? Engaging in vulgar Jew-baiting of public officials is not vile? Xenophobic talk about how Washington is "occupied" by Israel is not vile? Running fraudulent interviews without bothering to check them out first is not vile? How about denying climate change? Is that vile enough for you?


That's a lot more concise than the post I once wrote about Alexander Cockburn and Counterpunch!
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Re: Why is Counterpunch vile?

Postby seemslikeadream » Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:47 pm

It's not

are you advocating for it to be banned from RI? ..

an RI member only gets to personally ban 3 web sites from here....you've reached your quota
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Why is Counterpunch vile?

Postby solace » Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:59 pm

American Dream » Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:46 pm wrote:http://brockley.blogspot.com/2011/01/why-is-counterpunch-vile.html

Wednesday, January 26, 2011

Why is Counterpunch vile?

I just noticed Bill Weinberg's answer to the above question, and thought it worth extracting here.

Excuse me, running "journalism" by the Holocaust-denier (and apparent collaborationist with the Lukashenko dictatorship) Israel Shamir is not vile? Making a cause celebre of fellow Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel is not vile? Providing a soapbox for Bosnia genocide denial is not vile? Cheering on Ahmadinejad's electoral fraud is not vile? Cheering on the mass-murdering jihadis in Iraq is not vile? Engaging in vulgar Jew-baiting of public officials is not vile? Xenophobic talk about how Washington is "occupied" by Israel is not vile? Running fraudulent interviews without bothering to check them out first is not vile? How about denying climate change? Is that vile enough for you?


That's a lot more concise than the post I once wrote about Alexander Cockburn and Counterpunch!


Since there are a wealth of other sources to choose from which don't celebrate assholes like Shamir and Zundel and don't engage in antisemitic rhetoric one wonders why anyone on a board like RI which allegedly eschews such stuff would ever consciously choose to use and therefore promote such a vile source. And if Counterpunch, then why not David Duke's place, etc? Why not open the floodgates if the only requirement is info which supports one's viewpoint sans any underlying morality?
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Re: Why is Counterpunch vile?

Postby Searcher08 » Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:01 pm

Bill Weinberg is vociferously anti-9/11 Truth.
IMO he is tarded.
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Re: Why is Counterpunch vile?

Postby seemslikeadream » Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:05 pm

there's a vile source here and it's not CounterPunch by any means

people we are now officially in bizzaro world
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Why is Counterpunch vile?

Postby Searcher08 » Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:12 pm

solace » Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:59 pm wrote:Since there are a wealth of other sources to choose from which don't celebrate assholes like Shamir and Zundel and don't engage in antisemitic rhetoric one wonders why anyone on a board like RI which allegedly eschews such stuff would ever consciously choose to use and therefore promote such a vile source. And if Counterpunch, then why not David Duke's place, etc? Why not open the floodgates if the only requirement is info which supports one's viewpoint sans any underlying morality?


One wonders what attracts you to RI, as you seem to actively hate it and AFAIK are unable to see any posts as your ban list is by now so elephantine.
Who are YOU to determine whether a viewpoint has morality for others? Lands with me as a pretty exceptionalist attitude.

Anyway , your argument is just a "Thin End of the Wedge Fallacy".
May I suggest consulting AD about his vaunted "critical thinking" skills? Or perhaps Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camel%27s_nose
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Re: Why is Counterpunch vile?

Postby seemslikeadream » Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:31 pm

Anarchist Developments in Cultural Studies Ten Years After 9/11: An Anarchist Evaluation 2011.1
A New Path to Real Peace: Sander Hicks Responds to Bill Weinberg

Sander Hicks

If you are against 9/11 skepticism, you tend to paint it with the brush of whatever you find politically most odious. If you are on the right of the political spectrum, you claim 9/11 Truth is a crazy left- wing ideology. But if you are from the left, you see 9/11 skeptics as nefarious neo-Nazis.
Neither position is correct. 9/11 is a funny political issue. Asking questions about 9/11 is taboo in the US media. To the right, it presents the possibility that the Bush/Cheney administration were in fact capable of an evil that is beyond most of our understanding.1 If you are on the left, 9/11 showed that US imperialism got its “just desserts,” and woe to those who question that logic. As a result 9/11 skepticism is, more often than not, ignored. Still, the issue grows silently like a cancer, a growth that aims to kill the current form of crony capitalist cover-ups of power politics.
But what if you are not married to any one political ideology? What if you are free to scientifically examine the issue, free from
1 Not everyone in the 9/11 skeptics movement believes Bush/Cheney were directly responsible. Some simply call for a new investigation.
*
Sander Hicks is an active part of the movement demanding truth regarding US power and 9/11. Hicks has published on green economics for Alternet, and on the Marx- ist/Christian dialogue for The Huffington Post. He is a veteran of four national speaking tours and the lead singer of art-punk ensemble White Collar Crime. He started the independent media companies Soft Skull Press and Vox Pop Inc. He is author of The Big Wedding: 9/11, the Whistle-Blowers and the Cover-Up (Vox Pop, 2005) and Slingshot to the Juggernaut: Total Resistance to the Death Machine Means Complete Love of the Truth (Soft Skull Press, 2011).
104 Sander Hicks
politics that create biases?
In my personal case, 9/11 Truth has expanded my mind and broad-
ened my spirit. It has made me more open others’ paradigms, and has made me less hateful of my so-called “enemies.” After all, the notion of “enemy” is socially conditioned. (Another lesson made vividly clear in the by the post-9/11 world of scape-goating and paranoia.)
Get beyond the social conditioning of American politics per se, and one begins to see the possibilities of a mass movement built beyond sectarian limits. We express our deepest hopes for the world through our politics. And when those politics get hot and heavy, often our rationality goes out the window. With Bill Weinberg’s essay, we see emotions rise up in response to 9/11 skepticism. Perhaps some people feel threatened, to see elements of the right and left working together.
Despite accusations of political extremes, 9/11 skepticism is radical for its non-sectarianism. There are elements of both the patriot, grassroots right, and the radical left in 9/11 skepticism. And there are plenty of normal red-blooded Americans wary of extremism. There are those who think that the whole left/right paradigm is a part of the problem.
To accuse the movement of being dominated by either extreme is incorrect. It only exposes the accuser as a product of an outdated political paradigm. A truly anarchist analysis of 9/11 skepticism would appreciate how both libertarians and leftists can unite around a deep mistrust of the state’s Official Story.
Bill Weinberg’s essay is a good example of losing sight of the ball in the thicket of political ideology. He is so married to the notion that 9/11 skepticism is a dangerous topic of discourse he sabotaged his own radio show of 20 years at WBAI FM. Despite warnings, he denounced the program director on-air, and criticized other radio hosts, whom he felt were too open to 9/11 skepticism. Unable to wrestle down his demons, he was fired. He received sympathy only from a New York Times blogger, whom I happen to know. That blogger suffers from the same blinders, and with his article was clearly trying to justify his own prejudices about 9/11 and the social movement that has sprung up in its wake.2
2 http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/ ... -but-only- from-the-airwaves

A New Path to Real Peace: Sander Hicks Responds to Bill Weinberg 105 Weinberg’s Lures
Let’s take a look at Bill Weinberg’s mix of logic and emotions by analyzing an essay he wrote: “9–11 AT NINE: The Conspiracy Industry and the Lure of Fascism.”
His title implies that anyone who speculates about the common crime of “conspiracy” may be setting a lure to bring others towards fascism. This is a rather nasty extreme hypothesis, and I will prove its thorough falsity.
Ironically, it’s Weinberg himself who complains about how “the left is complicit in eroding its own vigilance against fascism by using the word ‘fascism’ as a mere baseball bat to beat our enemies with, often with little regard for its actual meaning.” It seems Weinberg there could be talking about himself. Fascism has a concrete meaning, but none of Weinberg’s examples from 9/11 skepticism fit the bill.
Weinberg promises to prove that, in the case of 9/11 at WBAI, “What began as an examination of seeming anomalies in the case
of 9–11 has lured some of our best minds down a black hole of irra- tionality that ultimately leads — and this, as shall be demonstrated, is not just hyperbole — to fascism.”
However, Weinberg does engage in hyperbole. Weinberg never “demonstrates” any proof, in this essay or elsewhere, that 9/11 stud-
ies lead to fascism. What he does prove is that it is intellectually enfeebling to be an anarchist/radical/leftist so stubbornly wedded to a certain viewpoint, when revolutionary methods of historical analysis are so life-giving and fresh.
No “Critical Inquiry versus Conspiranoia”
In his essay’s first paragraph, Weinberg sloppily conflates a variety of theories as he tries to appear rational about 9/11 skepticism: “It may begin with pre-planted explosives or missiles bringing down the Twin Towers . . . Once you abandon reason, anything goes.”
There are no elements of the 9/11 Truth Movement who claim that “missiles” took down the WTC. Weinberg may be confusing this subject with theories about what may have happened at the Pentagon. Or perhaps he doesn’t feel any part of this topic as a whole is worthy of rigor.
There are over 1,500 certified Architects and Engineers for 9/11
106 Sander Hicks
Truth (AE911truth.org) who have petitioned Congress and raised a public ruckus, because to “abandon reason” is to forget that steel- framed structures do not just explode. In fact, no steel-frame struc- ture has ever collapsed due to fire. The WTC was built to withstand the impact of a jet. If you “abandon reason,” you forget to ask why there was molten metal in the ruins of Ground Zero for over three months after the attacks, or why seismic data shows an explosion at Ground Zero before the buildings collapsed.
Weinberg, however, is clearly not writing for that audience; he’s writing with a common left imperiousness that turns up its nose at new ideas outside the bound of “left historicity.” He assumes, or desperately hopes, that the reader shares his special disdain for any- one who asks these kinds of questions. So without proving that such material is beyond “reason” Weinberg simply asserts that “pre- planted explosives” at the WTC are a theory that “abandons reason.”
Weinberg’s pessimism overwhelms his ability to simply see his- torical truths. When he dismisses the historical pattern of power conspiring against popular will, he claims: “historians are going to be arguing about [9/11] for generations to come, just like they are still arguing about the Reichstag Fire, the JFK assassination, the Gulf of Tonkin and the sinking of the battleship Maine.”
Actually, Mr. Weinberg, most “historians” heard the Nazis confess at Nuremberg that the Reichstag was a false flag attack blamed on a lefty scapegoat in order to foment support for militarism and the right. Just like 9/11.
His other examples are just as poor. Most rational minds agree that the Warren Commission’s “magic bullet” theory of the JFK as- sassination also abandoned reason. Recently, the US Military itself has admitted that the Gulf of Tonkin and the sinking of the Maine in Havana harbor were false provocations used by the eager US War Machine to expand foreign military adventures.
It’s only a glum form of subjectivism that alleges that there will never be any answers. The answers are out there for those who do the work. How strange a time we live in when even the US Military can at times be more intellectually honest than members of the “radical left.”
Now that the US war machine has murdered Osama, it’s clear to many people on Earth that Bin Laden’s guilt was never proven. Promises were made, but no indictment delivered. Instead, US Navy Seals under orders from the White House killed him on the spot, despite the annoying fact that Bin Laden wasn’t even wanted by the
A New Path to Real Peace: Sander Hicks Responds to Bill Weinberg 107
FBI for the crimes of 9/11.
Weinberg asserts that “the problem ultimately is not the power
of hidden elites, but that we live under the capitalist system.” He doesn’t give details, but if he did, he might realize that this assertion is also contradictory. The capitalist system is about a superstructure of oppression. Class oppression is thorough and translates into suppression on racial, gender, and secrecy lines. The latter is seldom discussed, but Karl Marx said as much in the 18th Brumaire of Louis Napoleon, Marx’s own study of how the elite used secrecy, conspiracy, and “bourgeois terror” to come to power.3
A radical critique of capitalism embraces the class analysis of history. Whether one is anarchist or Marxist, or beyond, radical ideologies understand capitalism as a rapacious system in which the working class (in the broadest sense of the word) is enslaved by economic conditions to work and to fight in wars based on lies, in order to avoid starvation. This is done by a powerful network of hidden elites, a.k.a., the ruling class, who work under a cloak of secrecy. They fuel the fires in this giant Platonic Cave, and keep us chained to fear the shadows.
“Elites” are just another name for the ruling class. You learn fast in the 9/11 Truth Movement, in its sprawling diversity, that people coming from a more rural or “patriot” background may use the word “elite,” while those coming from a more urban, “progressive” background denounce the “ruling class.” Both are actually talking about overthrowing the same class, the “hidden elite” calling the shots atop this crystal pyramid of illusions we call capitalism. They teach us it’s made of steel but experience tells us it’s built on sand. It could fall any time. Knowing this in our minds, hearts and bodies is the first step.
Let’s take this further out of the realm of theory. Instead of “hidden elite,” let’s look at one faction inside it: the Bush Family. It’s a histor- ical fact that they make secrecy the currency of their power. George W. Bush’s pathetic biography of cut corners and shady backroom deals was polished by GOP spin doctors just enough to make him quasi-“Presidential.” His father was a top manager of the narcotics/ weapons/black market power politics of the Iran/Contra network.4
3 MacGregor, D., and P. Zarembka. (2010). Marxism, conspiracy, and 9–11. Socialism and Democracy, 24.2, 139–163.
4 Chaitkin, A., and Tarpley, W. (2004) George Bush: The Unauthorized Biography. From Chapter XX “The Phony War on Drugs” “The Iran-contra drug-running and gun-run-

108 Sander Hicks
As CIA Director in the late 70’s he spread disinformation about the assassination of Chilean ambassador Letelier on the streets of DC.5 Bush was involved in and actually present at the hit on JFK in Dallas in 1963.6 During the 1981 assassination attempt on Reagan, Vice President Bush was put in charge of the “investigation.” He failed to make public the strange and long relationship that the Bush Family has with the “lone gunman” from the Hinckley family, back in the Houston oil industry.7
But to those who have lost hope, like Weinberg, the only accept- able response to ruling class machinations like these is to shrug and terminate the debate by saying “we’ll never really know the truth.” My wish for Mr. Weinberg is that he can use this crisis of his ra- dio show ending and find some sort of place for spiritual/political renewal.
Because, Mr. Weinberg, the light has not yet been smothered! For all their evil, there is an equal response.
“We will never know the truth?”
We know what we demand to know.
And we demand to know how to change this system.
Icke as a “Neo-Nazi”
David Icke, Weinberg claims, is a “Neo-Nazi.” But Weinberg never offers any proof for the assertion.
Icke is a lot of things: a former Green Party UK spokesman (a fact conveniently overlooked by Weinberg) and a former sportscaster. Icke has quickly written numerous books of bizarre, fantastic forms of conspiracy theory. Icke’s major thesis is that the ruling elite is so nefarious, that they must be alien beings with an ability to “shape- shift” into human forms at will.
When you pick up Icke’s books, you soon notice a startling lack of footnotes, or citations, or sources for anything. This is not a book for scholars, or serious skeptics. Could it be that Icke is a red herring?
ning operations run out of Bush’s own office played their role in increasing the heroin,
crack, cocaine, and marijuana brought into this country.”
5 See former AP reporter Robert Parry’s excellent journalism on this: http://www
.consortiumnews.com/2000/092300a.html
6 http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/bush.htm
7 The Hinckley-Bush Family connections were commented on by Newsweek and NBC,
at the time, see http://www.nathanielblumberg.com/neil.htm

A New Path to Real Peace: Sander Hicks Responds to Bill Weinberg 109
A buffoon set in place to discredit the more careful researchers and critics of the global power structure?
If so, Weinberg has taken the bait. By spending so much time on him, Weinberg is guilty of the “straw man” fallacy: the weakest and worst example of a class of people is held up as the example that proves the rule.
Icke must be a Neo-Nazi, reasons Weinberg. Icke once quoted from the anti-Semitic “Protocols of the Elders of Zion.”
I prefer the analysis of Alex Constantine, a much more thorough analyst of the machinations of power. He calls Icke’s work “an amateurish omelet of used conspiracy theories concocted by the John Birch Society and other far-right groups to discredit legitimate research on fascism, which is inherently conspiratorial. Most people, dumbed down by ‘mainstream’ media, can’t tell the difference.”8
Bill Weinberg, despite his radical claims, can’t seem to tell the difference either.
Let’s recall what Constantine just said. Fascism is real. Like Marx, Constantine sees that it is inherently conspiratorial. Our resistance to it must be disciplined and sustained. We must call forth a higher ideal of truth.
Bill Weinberg instead waters down the use of strong words like “neo-Nazi” to critique an already discredited figure. Icke is looney tunes, but I’m still waiting for the “proof” promised that this nut is
a “Neo-Nazi.”
Icke’s theory is that the international ruling class are shape-shift-
ing aliens. Weinberg claims that what he really means by aliens is “The Jews.” If you actually try to read Icke’s books though, you see that Icke is more concerned with the bloodlines of European royalty, the House of Windsor, etc., as much as the Jewish banking families of old Europe. Mentioning the Rothschild’s place in history does not
make one a Nazi.
Take a Breath
Towards the end, Weinberg concludes with, “The conspiracy the- ory of history has right-wing roots, and remains inherently a phe- nomenon of the right.”
8 http://aconstantineblacklist.blogspot.c ... art-three- my.html

110 Sander Hicks
To this, I would say, Bill, take a breath. Exposing the secret machi- nations of a militarist, right wing, fascist system is actually quite liberating. It’s fun, it’s confrontational, and it’s life-giving. And it’s very “left” if you like to use that term. History is not exclusively any single group’s method. But it is liberating when history is based on hard, materialist, political realities. Studying these realities is a part of liberating the global working class from the vampires.
“Conspiracy,” after all, happens all the time. It’s a common crime in our system of common law, prosecuted in the courts every day. Weinberg’s rejection of 9/11 skepticism only creates unnecessary drama. Tortured logic and twisted reasoning on the left are right now preventing us from seeing that a new social movement is on the rise. It’s dedicated to not letting Bush and Cheney, et al., get away with their crimes, especially 9/11, the crime of our time. While you wring your hands with “we may never know the answers,” I see time is running out to bring Bush and Cheney, et al., to trial. I see the evidence we will use clear as day.
An obsession with the ideological side of politics has stripped Bill Weinberg of his ability to even see the topic he is addressing. His blindness is common among the academic, intellectual left, which prizes precious postmodern theories and timid subjectivism over ac- tual real-world evidence. A fear of working class organization makes too many of us demonize anything not as pure left as a “dangerous militia movement” or worse.
The 9/11 Truth Movement is an interesting social movement wor- thy of more serious study. The politics around 9/11 have lead to real wars. The truth about 9/11 will lead to a real peace. And it’s a truly radical theory of history that will get us there.
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Why is Counterpunch vile?

Postby seemslikeadream » Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:51 pm

from ZCommunications

Bill Weinberg supports the onset of World War IV

By Edward Herman

July 19, 2005

Posted in: Europe, Mideast
[Note: Weinberg put a very similar version of this critique on his World War 4 web site, which I answered with the reply I reproduce here with only minor bracketed changes that reflect his occasional shifts. But as I noted in my initial reply, I don’t have time to do justice to all of Weinberg’s distortions, as there isn’t a single paragraph, and very few sentences, that are not vulnerable to disassembly for ignorance and misrepresentation, false "implications," and attack by snide put-downs.]

Bill Weinberg’s attack on my article "The Politics of the Srebrenica Massacre" ("The Politics of the Srebrenica Massacre," ZNet, July 7, 2005, http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle ... temID=8244) is titled "Z magazine supports genocide." In that article I did contest the standard narrative about Srebrenica, but for Weinberg this is maddening and illegitimate, and anybody that does this can’t be honest and must be an apologist. This is a standard rightwing smear tactic whereby somebody who, for example, criticizes the Bush attack on Iraq "supports Saddam Hussein" or who opposes the Patriot Act is a "supporter of terrorism." I can’t just disagree on Srebrenica, I must be an apologist: and for genocide.

Of course, a stronger argument can be made that since the huge focus on the Srebrenica massacre serves, among other goals, to put the Clinton-Blair war against Serbia in a good light, Weinberg’s swallowing this party-line position is apologetics for war, and a war that was part of World War 4, or a natural feed-in to Bush’s wars. There was the same disregard for the UN Charter, war crimes galore in the bombing of Serbia (open attacks on civilian infrastructure, use of depleted uranium), the refusal to negotiate any kind of settlement (notably in the case of the U.S.-Izetbegovic sabotaging of the 1992 Lisbon agreement, and Rambouillet), the insistence on war as the means of resolution, and the building of Camp Bondsteel, a gigantic permanent military base in Kosovo. Its connection with Serb villainy is a sick joke; the most thoroughly ethnically-cleansed areas in the former Yugoslavia are Croatia and NATO-occupied Kosovo. But the standard Srebrenica story tells us that this was all just because we were dealing with true evil, and on one side only. This is war-supportive crap that Weinberg buys and helps disseminate.

In proving me an apologist, one technique Weinberg uses is the false inference. For example, he says that my "first half" (a lie: less than a quarter) is spent arguing the political convenience of the massacre: analogous to "arguing that My Lai didn’t happen because it was ‘convenient’ to the NLF." But I say explicitly that "political interest hardly proves that the establishment narrative is wrong. It does, however, suggest the need for caution…" This kind of lying is important for Weinberg, because a main feature of his article is its complete lack of caution and his touching assumption that all those folks who have a political interest in the standard narrative are unbiased and simply truth-seekers. The Serbs lie and bury and rebury bodies, but the good guys give us the straight poop. Throughout, he talks about an "international investigation" studying this subject as if the parties doing that investigating have no political axe to grind.

I spend many pages showing how the Bosnian Muslim leadership did lie to try to induce NATO intervention, and I even quote Izetbegovic’s death-bed admission of lying to Bernard Kouchner and Richard Holbrooke. Weinberg dodges these and focuses on my claim of self-inflicted casualties by the Bosnian Muslims. He says I "implicitly (not explicitly, which would require more courage) argue that these were black propaganda jobs." Weinberg lies once more: I say clearly that the conclusion that these were black propaganda jobs is "based on serious and substantial evidence," and I cite powerful sources for this conclusion: two articles by NYT reporter David Binder, the study by on-the-scene U.S. army officer John Sray, a major Senate Staff Report of 1997, and more. But Weinberg doesn’t mention or discuss these: he knows that the establishment party line is true and it is easier to rely on misrepresentation and evasion . [Note: in this version of his reply Weinberg does mention the Senate Report, but instead of dealing with its substance he uses the diversionary tactic of sneering at my reference to such an official document: "so heart warming to see leftists making common cause with their enemies": so, use establishment sources and we get smart alec sneers; use dissident sources and they are unreliable.]

In discussing "the actual mechanics of the massacre" Weinberg says my "principal argument" seems to be that since the "safe areas" weren’t disarmed, "the Serbs were justified in overrunning them and slaughtering 8,000 mostly civilian war captives." This is only "implicit ." No one in his right mind would argue that "slaughtering 8,000" people is justified under any circumstances. No one did: certainly not me. That Weinberg suggests otherwise shows Weinberg’s fundamental dishonesty. But what I do contest throughout my article is whether it was factually the case that, following the evacuation of the Bosnian Muslim population from Srebrenica in July, 1995, the Bosnian Serbs slaughtered anywhere near the reported 8,000 Bosnian Muslim males of the standard narrative, and whether the false claim that they did serves political goals dramatically different than the concerns expressed by humanitarians. As regards the history of the "safe areas" and their abuse, I discussed this in order to explain why the Serbs might have serious grievances and might attack, and might even take vengeance (they had lists of Srebrenica-based killers). Smear artist Weinberg does a little massaging here, covered by "implicit," and he asserts the 8,000 figure as a given truth (never in the course of his article honestly confronting my critique of this figure) and adds "civilian" war captives, a sure lie of a NATO-war propagandist.

[Note: the gem that follows is in Weinberg’s original, dropped in this revised version.] Weinberg’s reference to my citation for a claim of 1,000 Serb civilians killed by the Bosnian Muslims in the Serb vicinity is amusing: it is "footnoted to the report from Yugoslavia’s UN ambassador without the slightest suggestion that this might be a dubious touchstone for veracity." Two points here: First, that report from way back in 1993 gives names and addresses and details on hundreds of Bosnian Serb victims, hard data that is not likely to have been manufactured. Second, Weinberg at no point ever hints at the possibility that the Bosnian Muslims, who have done most of the collection of bodies, or the Clinton administration, or anybody else who peddles the party line might in any way "be a dubious touchstone for veracity." This is patriotic and party line naivete of the grossest sort, but partly explains Weinberg’s anger and refusal to deal honestly with my long section on "The Serial Lying Before and After Srebrenica." It must also be a struggle for Weinberg to deal with the Bush administration’s steady lying, which we must assume represents a sharp departure from the Clinton gang’s honesty in the pursuit of evil.

Weinberg does allow an important instance in which Serbs do tell the truth, but this droll case is one where they actually do lie under pressure and threat. He says that the standard narrative was even confirmed by the Bosnian Serb leadership, which "has formally confessed to and apologized for the crime." In reality, the Bosnian Serbs put up a report on Srebrenica in 2002 (Report about Case Srebrenica, Documentation Centre of Republic of Srpska, Bureau of Government of RS for Relations with ICTY, Banja Luka, September, 2002), but proconsul Paddy Ashdown didn’t like the conclusions and fired a steady stream of Republica Srpska politicians and threatened them with other forms of retaliation until they produced a report with the proper conclusions. Even in the summer of 2004 Ashdown was axing Republika Srpska leaders who were not cooperating and lining up behind the reigning narrative about Srebrenica. (See David Peterson’s "Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Neocolonial Community," ZNet, June 30, 2004.) The final coerced, Stalinist effort, Weinberg takes as authentic.

Weinberg refers to my "secondary argument" that the "bodies said to be those of Srebrenica victims have been unearthed from several mass graves around eastern Bosnia rather than a single mass grave at Srebrenica. A look at the ICMP website would tell Herman that this was due to Serb commanders ordering bodies exhumed and reburied…." I’m not sure what my "primary" argument is for Weinberg, but he has missed it (I urge readers to look at the original, cited earlier, unrecognizable from Weinberg’s stupid misrepresentations and suppressions). On the alleged secondary argument, for Weinberg, if the ICMP (read Bosnian Muslim truth-tellers) say something it must be so, but in fact I had a complex argument on reburials that Weinberg evades or misses (see paragraphs 7-9 of Part 3 of my article). My reference to bodies from eastern Bosnia was only to show that the 7,500 at Tuzla were by no means all gathered from near Srebrenica, and the notion that they had all been there and were reburied is surely nonsense.

[In this second round attack Weinberg notes that "many" victims had their hands tied behind their backs (actually, a few hundred), so while this "may not be conclusive proof that all 8,000 were killed…it is certainly suggestive of this." It has long been acknowledged by everybody studying the subject, including Serb analysts, that several hundred were executed, but evidence that this is true proves or "suggests" nothing except to an irresponsible propagandist willing to offer a beautiful non-sequitur.]

In proving that this genocide-apologist (me) wrongly uses an allegedly standard argument of saying that a majority of the dead were killed in combat, Weinberg cites the ICTY testimony of Momir Nikolic. Two points: First, Nikolic admitted to lying in order to support his plea-bargain, so a second case where Serbs may tell the truth for Weinberg is where a plea-agreement is reached between the ICTY and an indicted Serb in ICTY custody, and the Serb confirms the preferred narrative. (Nikolic’s testimony provided a rare case where the NATO-war-supportive Institute for War and Peace Reports raised a question ab! out the integrity of the ICTY’s processes: Chris Stephens, "Key Srebrenica Witness Admits Lying: Momir Nikolic’s fictional account of massacre raises questions about plea-bargain system," IWPR, TU 327, 29 September 2003.) Second, even if his testimony were true, which is very much in doubt, it might show substantial executions but would not in any way prove that a majority of grave bodies were not killed in combat, a point of logic that eludes Weinberg . [In this version, Weinberg decides to protect his ass by acknowledging that Nikolic did lie, but denying that this affects his main testimony, although how Weinberg knows this about a "fictional account" is not clear, except that Nikolic says what Weinberg knows to be true ex ante. Also, there was support from Erdemovic, another hugely compromised mercenary and plea-bargain witness whose testimony would be thrown out of court in an honest judicial process. Recall the meticulous Weinberg’s concern over using "dubious touchstones of veracity."]

Nowhere in this sleazy diatribe does Weinberg discuss the meaning of genocide and how it applies to the Srebrenica case. A more honest and informed person, General Lewis Mackenzie, who was the first UN commander of peacekeeping forces in Srebrenica, wrote recently in his "The Real Story Behind Srebrenica" (Toronto Globe and Mail, July 14, 2005) that this was not the "black and white event in which the Serbs were solely to blame," and that "it has to be said that, if you’re committing genocide, you don’t let the women go since they are the key to perpetuating the very group you are trying to eliminate." This is too nuanced for party-liner Weinberg, and you can be sure that he is not going to discuss whether or not the huge ethnic cleansing and killing operation in Croatian Krajina that followed the Srebrenica massacre by less than a month was "genocide."

But if he doesn’t isn’t he an apologist for ethnic cleansing and genocide? Or consider this: on April 17th a memorial was held in the Bosnian town of Donja Gradina to remember the Jasenovac massacre of Serbs by Croatians during World War II. That was a real massacre, of an estimated 600,000 or more civilians (the 600,000 figure is given by the Simon Wiesenthal Center, which I mention to preclude any snide doubts by the scholarly Weinberg). This memorial, in contrast with that of Srebrenica, was ignored by the Western establishment, obviously for political reasons. But where was Bill Weinberg, so gung-ho with concern over ignoring celebrations of genocide? Answer: he was busy contributing to the propaganda campaign that justified the war on Serbia and either began or greased the skids for World War 4.
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Why is Counterpunch vile?

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:32 pm

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Re: Why is Counterpunch vile?

Postby seemslikeadream » Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:36 pm

hand me that toaster when you're finished....or just pull me in before you drop it
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Why is Counterpunch vile?

Postby Searcher08 » Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:48 pm

seemslikeadream » Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:36 pm wrote:hand me that toaster when you're finished....or just pull me in before you drop it


:) He'll be DEAD, so how will he hand it to you? Unless.... this "Counterpunch is Vile" thread actually turns WR into one of the Walking Dead :( NOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Well, at least I "discovered" Bill Weinberg, the Tony Greenstein of New York.
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Re: Why is Counterpunch vile?

Postby seemslikeadream » Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:02 pm

ok ...here's the thing....I've got the plug in my hand ...I've pulled it out from the wall socket....saving Womby from killing himself...he jumps out of the tub..I plug in the toaster grab it out of his hands and jump in! Voila!
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Why is Counterpunch vile?

Postby American Dream » Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:10 pm

Wednesday, June 11, 2008

Alexander Cockburn and CounterPunch

Alexander Cockburn, the editor of CounterPunch, was brought up in a very particular Communist Party milieu. His father, Claud Cockburn, was from a diplomatic family and went to Berkhamstead College School, an ancient British elite private school, which also produced Winston Churchill’s wife, various cabinet ministers, the fascist AK Chesterton and Graham Greene. Auberon Waugh is a cousin.

Alexander Cockburn’s Balliol degree and family connections probably got him a job at the Times Higher Education straight from university and a staff post at the New Statesman before he turned 23.

Claud Cockburn joined the Communist Party and covered the Spanish Civil War (as “Frank Pitcairn”) for the Daily Worker, joining the International Brigade. The Communist Party played a terrible role in Spain, of course, murdering independent socialists and anarchists. Cockburn worked closely with the Soviet agents who orchestrated both acts of violence against the anti-Stalinist left and the propaganda which whitewashed those acts – such as his friend Mikhail Koltsov (Cockburn: “I spent a great deal of my time in the company of Mikhail Koltzov, who then was foreign editor of Pravda and, more importantly still, was at that period… the confidant and mouthpiece and direct agent of Stalin himself.”). He was also friendly with British agents like Guy Burgess. (His first wife, Hope Hale Davis, went on to marry another spy, Hermann Brunck.)

George Orwell’s Homage to Catalonia is the best account of this. Orwell is sharply critical of the lies Cockburn told about Spain. Here is an example of one of Cockburn’s lies:

Catalonia is full of German and Italian agents working desperately to reorganize the rebellion against the People’s Front government...German and Italian agents, who poured into Barcelona ostensibly in order to ‘prepare’ the notorious ‘Congress of the Fourth International’ had one big task. It was this: they were - in cooperation with the local Trotskyists - to prepare a situation of disorder and bloodshed... a situation in which the Italian and German governments could land troops or marines on the Catalan coasts...The instrument for all this lay ready to hand for the Germans and Italians in the shape of the Trotskyist organization known as the POUM.”*


Of course, the POUM, an independent Marxist party, was not Trotskyist (Trotsky criticised it for being too anti-Soviet). Far from being pro-fascist, it was consistently active in militant anti-fascism.

Here’s another example:

In the past, the leaders of the POUM have frequently sought to deny their complicity as agents of a fascist cause against the People’s Front. This time they are convicted out of their own mouths as clearly as their allies, operating in the Soviet Union, who confessed to the crimes of espionage, sabotage and attempted murder against the government of the Soviet Union.”

As Kevin Keating writes:

"His reference to confessions in the Soviet Union is Claud Cockburn’s approving nod to the results of the Moscow Trials, a high point of Stalinist totalitarian delirium, where Bukharin, Zinoviev, Kamenev and other leading Bolshevik bureaucrats confessed to absurd charges that they had long been agents of Hitler, the Japanese Emperor and other malefactors, and were subsequently shot.

David Walsh at WSWS puts it even more starkly:

"Claud Cockburn's slanders helped prepare the atmosphere in which [POUM leader Andres] Nin and others were murdered. Moreover, his articles were published in the midst of the infamous Moscow Trials. His lies played an objective role in assisting in Stalin's mass extermination of the Soviet socialist intellectuals and workers."


Here is how Cockburn later described his job as intellectual hatchet man for Stalin: “was what, if one were inclined to pomposity, might be called a section leader of the counterespionage department of the Spanish Republican Government dealing with Anglo-Saxon personalities.”

Alexander has seen fit to recycle his dad’s lies. On the 70th anniversary of the Spanish war (I call it the Spanish revolution; the Stalinists never use this term, as they helped crush the revolution), CounterPunch reprinted some of Claud’s writings. In “Scenes from the Spanish Civil War”. Claud Cockburn describes his meeting with the anarchist Buenaventura Durruti (misspelled Durutti by Cockburn). Cockburn writes:

"[Durruti] spoke to me in French and I realized that he was furiously angry. I banded him my credentials, supposing that this evidence of my having the capacity of correspondent of a "Red" newspaper would immediately appease him. He glanced at, them and threw them on the table and then in a low voice, vibrant with hatred, denounced the Communists and all their works. So far as he, undisputed Anarchist boss of Catalonia, was concerned, I might almost as well have been a Fascist.

The armed bodyguard standing by could not understand what he was saying but his tone told them this was an enemy. It was a time when enemies were shot quickly. I could feel the atmosphere in that kitchen becoming horribly cold. I had a clear conviction that Durutti was in the judgment seat and pronouncing sentence of death. For at that place and time, to be a member of a rival organization on the Republican side -- to be ideologically at variance with the Anarchists -- was, to the pure Anarchist, not very much different from being on the other side altogether."


The bitter irony here, of course, is that it was Communists who were murdering anarchists, not the other way around… And then:

"I saw him only once again, on a snowy day in Madrid, soon after he bad brought, against bitter opposition in Barcelona, the pick of his Anarchist fighters from Catalonia to assist the defense of the Castilian capital. The day after I saw him he was shot dead in the street -- on the ground that he was about to sign a comprehensive agreement with the Communists-by members of an organization called the "Friends of Durutti.""


This is a most outrageous lie. Durruti was killed in combat against fascists, not by anarchists. The Friends of Durruti were formed in March 1937, months after Durruti’s death in November 1936, to fight for the libertarian revolution Durruti fought for, against the alliance of the anarchist leadership with the Communists in the Popular Front. In Abel Paz’s splendid biography of Durruti, The People Armed (badly translated from French by the great Nancy MacDonald, one of my heroes), Paz, a comrade of Durutti’s, presents accounts that suggest the incompetence and political manoeuvring of the (Communist-dominated) International Brigades for placing Durruti in the situation that got him killed.

(It is worth noting that the same issue of CounterPunch publishes a piece by George Galloway, eulogising another Stalinist, John Cornford. Galloway, with his typical lack of modesty and bombastic prose, writes:

"But for a bullet in the brain on the Ebro, Rupert John Cornford might have loomed as large as George Orwell in the British left-wing lexicon. Orwell would probably have informed on him to his bosses in British Intelligence. For Cornford was a Communist. Not just a Communist, but a potential leading figure of the party, then rising towards the zenith of its power as the potential nemesis of Fascism, as well as a war poet as brilliant as he is now obscure. Not bad for a man who was killed doing his internationalist duty on his 21st birthday.

John Cornford was the grandson of Charles Darwin, son of the Victorian poet Frances Cornford, and part of the golden generation of the British left who went to fight fascism in Spain. That their memory has been sullied by Orwell's slanders, unfortunately reinforced by Ken Loach's film Land and Freedom, and now lies largely forgotten on the Iberian peninsula by the progressives of the 21st century is the main reason why I am working on an historical novel, Heart of the heartless World at the centre of which is the tall handsome figure of John Cornford."

More Stalinist lies.)

Claud eventually left the CP (in 1947 – that is, weathering the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact that made many of his generation, such as his earlier wife Hope Hale Davis, leave). Alexander, though, has on many occasions acted as a defender of its moribund faith.

A leftist critic of Cockburn, Louis Proyect, has described some examples of this:

"He supported the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan on the basis that it was a lesser evil to the misogynist fundamentalism of the village chieftains. He probably was influenced on this score by the CP politics of his father, another famous journalist, Claude Cockburn. But Alex was not a plain vanilla Stalinist. He also extolled the newspaper of the Trotskyist Spartacist League. This I found much more disturbing than his old-line Red Army apologetics. The Sparts, who also supported Soviet intervention in Afghanistan, were--to put it bluntly--nuts. During the Vietnam war, they raised the slogan "Drive the GI's into the sea!" As somebody who had leafleted draftees and knew how important tactful formulations were, I would found have found this slogan an invitation to a broken nose."


In 1998, the William Keach of Socialist Workers Party described him fairly accurately thus:

"Cockburn's personal history links him to the politics of the Communist Party, and there are still moments in his writing - debating the number of people estimated to have perished in Stalin's gulags, claiming that 'the Brezhnev years were a Golden Age for the Soviet working class',** when aspects of his father's convictions can be glimpsed."


David Walsh provides other examples, from The Golden Age is in Us: “He suggests at one point, for instance, that Stalin had no choice but to sign the Nazi-Soviet pact. He places principal blame for totalitarianism in eastern Europe on the emergence of the Cold War. He cites figures to prove that the US incursions in El Salvador and Guatemala resulted in far more casualties than the Soviet invasions of Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia.” In 1989, when Christopher Hitchens was still at The Nation and on the left, Cockburn defended Fidel Castro from Hitchens’ attacks.

Keach’s analysis is that “The trouble is that Cockburn understands Lenin's maxim through a historical perspective distorted by Stalinist myth.” He quotes more Cockburn:

“The Soviet Union defeated Hitler and fascism. Without it, the Cuban Revolution would never have survived, nor the Vietnamese. In the post-war years it was the counterweight to US imperialism and the terminal savageries of the old European colonial powers. It gave support to any country trying to follow an independent line. Without it, just such a relatively independent country as India could instead have taken a far more rightward course. Despite Stalin's suggestion to Mao that he and his comrades settle for only half a country, the Chinese Revolution probably would not have survived either.”***


Continues at: http://brockley.blogspot.com/2008/06/al ... punch.html
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Re: Why is Counterpunch vile?

Postby solace » Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:01 pm

Seems to me that the only way to defend Counterpunch is to prove that regular antisemitism and support for people such as Shamir, Zundel, Atzmon etc (all of whom support for is verboten by RI rules) is NOT vile. I have slad and searcher on ignore so I can't see if their posts have done that. Would be a neat trick if they or anyone else did. Not holding my breath. Likely all you'll get is attacked; no real substance to refute the charge.
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Re: Why is Counterpunch vile?

Postby seemslikeadream » Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:09 pm

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Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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