JFK to 9/11: Everything is a Rich Man's Trick

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Re: JFK to 9/11: Everything is a Rich Man's Trick

Postby Nordic » Thu Jan 15, 2015 4:58 am

I haven't watched the video but to speculate on the question above:

Recently I have begun to wonder as to whether or not Hitler was a trial balloon. An experiment to see if it would work. And then, to later on, refine and correct to perfect fascism.

Because in hindsight that's what we seem to have now.

Instead of one charismatic dictator, we have the illusion of Democracy.

And work does make you free.

Hitler was the first media created rock star. The first time the power of cinema was used to mass manipulate people. To create fame. To gin up hysteria. To brainwash. It was beautifully effective. It was the last example of the limits to industrial warfare, in which armies were literally the manifestation of industrial power.

Hitler lost but fascism won, as George Carlin used to say.

We learned so much from Hitler. How to do it and how not to do it. It seems many of the same men and families were behind Hitler that run things now. The Bush family for one.

Just speculation but it makes a certain sense. In recent years I've been fascinated by how Hitler was able to take over a country as sophisticated as Germany and achieve rock star status. It's all so ... Unlikely it seems to have risen organically.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
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Re: JFK to 9/11: Everything is a Rich Man's Trick

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:29 am

Just speculation but it makes a certain sense. In recent years I've been fascinated by how Hitler was able to take over a country as sophisticated as Germany and achieve rock star status. It's all so ... Unlikely it seems to have risen organically.


Things rise organically and people with the desire and means take advantage of them, sponsor them etc etc There were new technologies, new forms of communication, new understandings of the world and new grievances to be addressed (after ww1 the loss of face, power and actual stuff - citizens, land and cash/assets). It was and still is easy enough to brand these things or bring them together under a brand that appeals to disenfranchised (in that particular case) white males. Racism was an essential part of that movement, and not just white supremacy but Aryan supremacy. Racism used the way Hitler did, with an extreme form of racism, can be a uniting force for the people who buy into it, especially when they feel ripped off by the world.
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Re: JFK to 9/11: Everything is a Rich Man's Trick

Postby stillrobertpaulsen » Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:45 pm

Well, I finally got through to the end.

I found this documentary as fascinating as it was frustrating. It was fascinating to watch him take one deep state event, the assassination of JFK, and use it as a focal point to traverse backward to the beginnings of empire and how things came to be. That was really all he needed to do, 9/11 seemed to be almost an afterthought in Francis Conolly's perspective, so it seems kind of pointless to include 9/11 in the title. Especially since he considers the launching point of serious inquiry into the 9/11 conspiracy to be Loose Change. Not Paul Thompson's Center for Cooperative Research, not Peter Lance, not Daniel Hopsicker, not Michael Ruppert, not even David Ray Griffin for crying out loud! But I digress.

The examination of the acquisition of the Harriman fortune, as well as the Morgan, Bush, Walker, Rockefeller et al. was illuminating, particularly as it pertained to the rise of the Nazi Party and the subsequent Holocaust. The filmmaker rightly points out how central money is to the control of everything. When it comes to the Kennedy assassination, we see only the usual suspects in terms of money: Hunt, Murchison, and of course, Bush. Yet in mentioning the key Oswald babysitter, George de Mohrenschildt, Conolly only mentions the connections with these oilmen. He neglects to mention the subsequent pair of babysitters, the Paines. If you want to do a documentary about the Kennedy assassination, and how important the Elite and their money is to that and other deep state events, how could you omit someone whose bloodline goes back to one of the Founding Fathers (Declaration of Independence signer Robert Treat Paine) and by marriage is connected to such blue blood families as Forbes? Or his work with Bell helicopter inventor and stepfather Arthur Young? Or if you want to make Allen Dulles the villain of your piece, instead of claiming he wrote the Treaty of Versailles without providing documentation, why not mention that Dulles was banging the best friend of Michael Paine's mom, for which there is ample documentation?

To me, this is indicative of a shortsightedness on the part of Conolly. I agree with many aspects of his worldview, but he doesn't back up his point of view with truly rigorous research. The first giveaway that his documentation was rather slipshod was his inclusion of the Madeleine Duncan Brown story of the 20 wealthy plotters celebrating the assassination the evening prior. There's always been something about this story that bothered me, other than just having her word for it. But it finally hit me watching this documentary: he mentions John Connally being at this party, then later on mentions how ludicrous it is to suggest a single bullet, or split bullet depending on who's telling the story, passing through Kennedy and Connally. Am I the only one flabbergasted here? How is it that one gets invited to a party of elite assassination plotters, then ends up willingly sitting in front of the designated target of the plotters?! Yet Francis Conolly buys this without batting an eyelash.

But even where he does provide documentation, his research seems spotty. I have a great appreciation for the seminal contributions of Mark Lane, and it was a great pleasure to see Conolly quote from him, not just with the groundbreaking Rush to Judgment, but with the often overlooked but equally compelling Plausible Denial. He did right by him citing his inclusion of the sworn testimony of Marita Lorenz in the civil case Hunt v. Liberty Lobby, which ruled against Howard Hunt in the retrial. It is a truly captivating story in which she travels in a near cross-country caravan with many of the plotters, including future Watergate burglar Frank Sturgis. Conolly then recounts the motel meeting where Lorenz witnesses Howard Hunt paying off Sturgis. Yet he neglects to mention that one hour later, who should walk into the motel room to meet with Sturgis? Jack Ruby. Which kind of ties the whole assassination conspiracy together. I can't think of any reason to omit such a detail from this documentary, other than Conolly was just plain sloppy.

One idea that Conolly presents that I agree with regarding the assassination is the storm-drain theory. I've always thought that the grassy knoll set-up existed first as a Plan B option if the Oswald set-up went awry and the threads of conspiracy gained undeniable exposure for the mafia to be blamed, later as a center for denigrating conspiracy theory with the lunacy label. It's through this latter example that I'm having a problem with what Conolly does: the only evidence he presents to back up the theory is evidence I've only seen presented from the debunking side - that the angle is too sharp for a grassy knoll headshot. Why do that? Why not cite a more supportive source like Jim Garrison? He was describing the storm-drain assassin scenario back in the 60s. And who is his source that the storm-drain assassins were a couple young punks who didn't mind getting literally dirty? What happened to the French connection guys like Souetre? Weren't they getting paid enough to get dirty? Why shit on Oliver Stone's JFK for being made with CIA money? How do we know Conolly doesn't live in the same glass house?

I could go on with more examples, but I think I've made my point.
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Re: JFK to 9/11: Everything is a Rich Man's Trick

Postby 8bitagent » Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:50 am

Also it's been proven the Umbrella man was just a guy who thought it'd be kind of tongue and cheek to wear all black with an umbrella on a clear day as an obscure homage.

Great Errol Morris short documentary on JFK's assassination(wish this was a full length)

pt 1
pt 2
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Re: JFK to 9/11: Everything is a Rich Man's Trick

Postby RocketMan » Fri Jan 16, 2015 6:05 am

8bitagent » Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:50 am wrote:Also it's been proven the Umbrella man was just a guy who thought it'd be kind of tongue and cheek to wear all black with an umbrella on a clear day as an obscure homage.

Great Errol Morris short documentary on JFK's assassination(wish this was a full length)

pt 1
pt 2


Ehhh.. I hope this is sarcasm...
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Re: JFK to 9/11: Everything is a Rich Man's Trick

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:12 am

Sounder » Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:47 am wrote:(you and most other folk seem to believe these issues derive from human nature and cannot therefor be changed, while my opinion is that we are dealing with human habit that can be changed.)


"Human Nature" is a cheap rhetorical flourish. My case is based on biological constraints and incentive structures; I make no claim to understanding, nor even perceiving something as nebulous and Platonically useless as "Human Nature."

History abounds with lessons -- some of them might even mean something!

Sounder » Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:47 am wrote:No, the ‘project’ is to identify the nature of our systemic problems, with a start, by analyzing the actions of those that best monetize our collective problems.


In which we converge on the same page again. Funny, that.
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Re: JFK to 9/11: Everything is a Rich Man's Trick

Postby Sounder » Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:48 pm

This was mistakenly posted on the color revolution thread.

In reference to the vid, I did not get very far into it, and have less and less interest in the details and personalities of deep state history. Still the people that do this kind of work do collectively provide a sort of picture, even when some conclusions, assumptions and ideology justifiably bring the fact value of other assertions into question.

It’s like when one reads a book, where the information is appreciated but the conclusions seem weak or not justified by the material of the book. The book might still be considered to be 'good'.

Thanks stillrobertpaulson for providing some details for perspective.
Sounder » Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:47 am wrote:(you and most other folk seem to believe these issues derive from human nature and cannot therefor be changed, while my opinion is that we are dealing with human habit that can be changed.)


Wombat wrote...
"Human Nature" is a cheap rhetorical flourish. My case is based on biological constraints and incentive structures; I make no claim to understanding, nor even perceiving something as nebulous and Platonically useless as "Human Nature."


Yes, Platonically useless because it doesn’t exist. Incentive structures can be changed.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
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Re: JFK to 9/11: Everything is a Rich Man's Trick

Postby slimmouse » Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:52 pm

In reference to the vid, I did not get very far into it, and have less and less interest in the details and personalities of deep state history. Still the people that do this kind of work do collectively provide a sort of picture, even when some conclusions, assumptions and ideology justifiably bring the fact value of other assertions into question.



I too reckon that it all amounts to what we choose to take from this video. I got through about the first 40 minutes or so, broadly tolerating a couple of brush stroke cliches whilst attempting to hang on to some of the more established facts. It would be safe to say that it lacked nuance.

Therefore, after coupling the sketchy nature of the commentary, with listening to other peoples comments about the video, I might well be left wondering if this video itself isnt by definition, one of them there rich mens tricks.
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Re: JFK to 9/11: Everything is a Rich Man's Trick

Postby stillrobertpaulsen » Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:42 pm

8bitagent » Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:50 am wrote:Also it's been proven the Umbrella man was just a guy who thought it'd be kind of tongue and cheek to wear all black with an umbrella on a clear day as an obscure homage.

Great Errol Morris short documentary on JFK's assassination(wish this was a full length)

pt 1
pt 2


8bitagent, while I think Morris is probably a hundred times better filmmaker than Conolly, and I have an incredible amount of respect for the research Josiah Thompson put into Six Seconds in Dallas, the case is hardly closed on Umbrella Man. First, it has not been "proven" that Louie Steven Witt was even in Dealey Plaza on November 22, 1963. We only have his word for it. Which is not to call him a liar, I find it intriguing that in his HSCA testimony he recalls the shots being fired as "so close together, and it was like hearing a string of firecrackers", which is kind of at odds with the official Warren Commission explanation. But there are additional things that Jim DiEugenio brings to light that shows there may be more to this than the official explanation of record:

Morris is especially surprising in light of three of his works. In 1988, Morris made The Thin Blue Line. This was a memorable documentary which, among its several achievements, helped free an innocent man from the clutches of the Dallas Police. That man was Randall Adams and he had been framed for the murder of a policeman. (Sound familiar Errol? Hint: J. D. Tippit.) It was actually one of the first popular works which began to expose just how horrendous that organization was under DA Henry Wade. We know today, through the efforts of current DA Craig Watkins, that the Dallas Police Department was the worst in the nation in its record of false arrests and framing people on phony evidence. In fact, their cumulative record in that regard was even worse than some states. (James DiEugenio, Reclaiming Parkland, pgs. 172-74)

But that is not all. In 2003, Morris made The Fog of War, a documentary about the late Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara. Both in the film, and in the outtakes on the DVD, McNamara said some interesting things about Vietnam and how it related to Presidents Kennedy and Johnson. In 2012, in a book called A Wilderness of Error, Morris addressed the infamous Jeffrey McDonald homicide case. As in the Adams case, Morris concluded that an innocent man was convicted of murder. He said about that case, "What happened here is wrong. It's wrong to convict a man under these circumstances, and if I can help correct that, I will be a happy camper."

All of this would seem to indicate that Morris would be an ideal candidate to actually be a truth-teller on the JFK case. But the problem is there is another side to Morris. He is a quite successful and prolific maker of TV commercials. He has worked for companies like Apple, Nike and Toyota. He also has made short films for the Academy Awards shows. Finally, he is a frequent contributor to the New York Times online edition.

It was this last which provoked Rosenbaum to interview the acclaimed documentary film-maker. For in 2011 Morris created a short film for the Times. Entitled The Umbrella Man, it featured an interview with Josiah Thompson. Thompson discussed the phenomenon of the figure of a man in Dealey Plaza who incongruously raised an umbrella at the time Kennedy's limousine was approaching the kill zone. He is in close proximity to a dark complected, Latin-looking man – perhaps a Cuban – who raises his fist at around this same time. After the shooting, while everyone is either hiding or running around trying to find the killers, these two do something strange. They sit on the curb next to each other for a few minutes. They then walk off in opposite directions. If all of that is not puzzling enough for you, there is this: In some pictures, it looks like the Latin has a walkie-talkie in his rear pocket.

Needless to say the Warren Commission never noted any of this in their 888 page report. Just like they never noted Kennedy's rearward motion in the Zapruder film. But some people did notice it. To any curious investigator, which excludes the Commissioners, it was clearly arresting. Consider what Michael Benson says about it in his encyclopedia on the case, Who's Who in the JFK Assassination. He calls the pair "two of the most unusual characters" on the scene. And he adds that there appears to be evidence that suggests the Latin looking man is talking into the walkie-talkie. (Benson, pgs. 485-86)

When the HSCA began to set up, they ran newspaper photo ads asking whom the person raising the umbrella and pumping it up and down was. They then asked if he would come forward. A man named Louis Witt did so and testified to the HSCA. He said that he was the man with the umbrella. He said that the reason he had the umbrella was that he did not like Kennedy. The umbrella was to remind everyone that Kennedy's father, Ambassador Joseph Kennedy, was too sympathetic to English Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain, the man who tried to appease Adolf Hitler. In Thompson's interview with Morris for the Times he essentially recites this HSCA testimony. Thompson says that this is just wacky enough to be true. And he ends up saying that this was a cautionary tale about thinking up sinister explanations for seemingly malignant occurrences. (For more on "Umbrella Man" and the "Dark Complected Man," see this YouTube video.)

Before proceeding further, let us note something that, inexplicably, neither Morris nor Thompson mentions: the presence of the Hispanic looking man. As noted, this man has what appears to be a walkie talkie in his pocket, and he appears to speak into it after the assassination. Further, he calmly stood next to the man the HSCA says was Witt, and while Witt was raising the umbrella, this man raised his fist upward. They then sat next to each other on the curb for a few minutes after the shooting. Here, the Latin looking man appears to talk into his radio set.

Why would anyone ignore all of this? Maybe because it would be too difficult to explain the proximity of two strangely behaving men being right next to each other just before and after President Kennedy got his head blown off? Further, one would have to ask: Why did neither the FBI nor the Dallas Police in 1963, nor the HSCA in 1977, locate this other man? (For that matter, why didn't the DPD nor the FBI find Witt in 1963?) Neither Thompson nor Morris asks that question. And since Morris either does not know about this man, or does not include information about him, the viewer who is unfamiliar with the case cannot ask it either.

But beyond that, when Witt did appear, his sworn testimony had some real problems to it. Witt testified that just before the shooting, he was walking toward the motorcade trying to get his umbrella open and therefore did not actually see the murder. (HSCA Vol. IV, pgs. 432ff) This is simply not true. The man was standing still at the time, with the umbrella open well above his head; so he had to have seen what was happening in front of him. Yet, in spite of this fact, Witt specifically denied that he saw the shooting because his view of the car was obstructed by the umbrella. Wrong. He was not moving as the umbrella was raised, and the umbrella does not obstruct his view. He then said he ended up standing on the retaining wall, which again, he did not do. (ibid, p. 433)

Another curious point is that Witt testified that he got to Dealey Plaza more or less by accident. He said that he just went for a walk at lunch and did not know the actual motorcade route. He just knew the route would be through the center of town and so he followed the crowds. (ibid, p. 431) But further, much of what he describes as occurring during the shooting of Kennedy is not recorded on any films or photos of the scene. He says that "there was the car stopping, the screeching of tires, the jamming on of brakes, motorcycle patrolman right there beside one of the cars. One car ran up on the President's car..." (ibid, p. 433) Finally, Witt said he never knew who the Latin looking man was or if he had a radio device with him. He only recalled that afterwards, the man said, "They done shot them folks." (ibid, p. 441)

What is striking about Witt's HSCA testimony is that no one seriously challenged him on any of these quite dubious points. No one tells him that what he describes himself as doing is not what the photographic evidence says he did. No one tells him that what he said happened during the shooting is not on the Zapruder film or any other film. And no one on the HSCA even checked to see if the umbrella he brought to the hearing was the same one he raised in Dealey Plaza. (Ibid, p. 447) He said it was. But as researchers who have done comparisons between the two have found, it is not the same one because the number of spokes are different. But apparently, Thompson, who for a time afterwards actually bought into the work of the HSCA, found all this credible. And Morris, who never brings up any of these other points, agrees without fact checking. Which is something understandable from the Times, but not Morris. Frankly, it's hard to figure which of the two comes off worse here. Because if they had examined the actual evidence, the message of the piece would have been quite different. They did not. They accepted what Robert Blakey had sponsored. In fact, in Rosenbaum's article both Thompson and Morris essentially agree with what Blakey produced for the public. Because all three men agree that the Umbrella Man – presumably Witt – came forward and explained himself. Well, Rosenbaum can only say that he "explained himself" by not writing about how he explained himself. Or that Blakey consciously did these kinds of things in order to make the critical community look bad.
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Re: JFK to 9/11: Everything is a Rich Man's Trick

Postby 8bitagent » Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:42 am

stillrobertpaulsen » Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:42 pm wrote:
8bitagent, while I think Morris is probably a hundred times better filmmaker than Conolly, and I have an incredible amount of respect for the research Josiah Thompson put into Six Seconds in Dallas, the case is hardly closed on Umbrella Man. First, it has not been "proven" that Louie Steven Witt was even in Dealey Plaza on November 22, 1963. We only have his word for it. Which is not to call him a liar, I find it intriguing that in his HSCA testimony he recalls the shots being fired as "so close together, and it was like hearing a string of firecrackers", which is kind of at odds with the official Warren Commission explanation. But there are additional things that Jim DiEugenio brings to light that shows there may be more to this than the official explanation of record:


Before proceeding further, let us note something that, inexplicably, neither Morris nor Thompson mentions: the presence of the Hispanic looking man. As noted, this man has what appears to be a walkie talkie in his pocket, and he appears to speak into it after the assassination. Further, he calmly stood next to the man the HSCA says was Witt, and while Witt was raising the umbrella, this man raised his fist upward. They then sat next to each other on the curb for a few minutes after the shooting. Here, the Latin looking man appears to talk into his radio set.


Dang, that is rather curious. Both the umbrella raised and opened/side man fist raising at the kill spot as the car passes, and their actions after. Thanks for posting the article and the youtube vid
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Re: JFK to 9/11: Everything is a Rich Man's Trick

Postby slimmouse » Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:21 pm

Wombaticus Rex wrote:
Edit: I am assuming everyone reading this knows about Col. House. If not: remedy that.


Thanks for the reference WR. Kept trying to find the time in my procrastinatal schedule to look into the characters you have mentioned here.

Yesterday James Corbett kindly helped me on my way via the podcast in the link below. Well worth the affordable time of anyone.

Richard Grove of TragedyandHope.com and PeaceRevolution.org joins us on this month’s edition of Film, Literature and the New World Order to discuss “Philip Dru: Administrator” by Edward Mandell House. We examine the man behind the work and how the novel presages House’s time as the power behind the throne of the Wilson presidency.


Link ; https://www.corbettreport.com/philip-dru-flnwo-23/
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