Drawing Lines Against Racism and Fascism

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Re: Drawing Lines Against Racism and Fascism

Postby Luther Blissett » Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:39 am

American Dream » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:47 pm wrote:
Luther Blissett » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:09 pm wrote:I definitely need to better understand neofolk fascism and folk-punk neo-nazism. I don't think I've ever grokked the breakdown between non-fascists and fascists in those genres. Not exactly my cup of tea but I know folk-punk is pretty popular with young activists.


This is a good resource: http://www.whomakesthenazis.com/search/label/Neo-Folk

Also here: https://nycantifa.wordpress.com/tag/neofolk/

And this: https://nomattimen.wordpress.com/2012/0 ... andomness/


Thanks for that. I'm familiar enough with Death in June and didn't really recognize any other group names which I count as a good thing. I have a knack for band names and so if anyone I was friends with, associating with, or participating in any kind of activism with had mentioned these they would have at least jumped out at me. I believe I may have been confusing labels again. Doesn't seem like much neo-folk is being produced today.
The Rich and the Corporate remain in their hundred-year fever visions of Bolsheviks taking their stuff - JackRiddler
User avatar
Luther Blissett
 
Posts: 4991
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:31 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Drawing Lines Against Racism and Fascism

Postby Luther Blissett » Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:59 am

82_28 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:58 pm wrote:
Luther Blissett » Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:09 am wrote:I definitely need to better understand neofolk fascism and folk-punk neo-nazism. I don't think I've ever grokked the breakdown between non-fascists and fascists in those genres. Not exactly my cup of tea but I know folk-punk is pretty popular with young activists.


Had you (yet again I must mention it for which I apologize) grown up in Denver right before your eyes you would have seen this happen -- just out of the blue. Being "punk" and "left" was a thing and also was the "punk, right and nazi" a thing too. SOMEBODY moved into town and clearly had associates to make it so. I don't know how they were funded, but they would have had to have been. They were suburban kids who somehow succumbed to a brief stint with racism. I like to think that I had a hand in stamping out nazi-ism with the half of a life I spent there. I probably did to certain degrees. But it came from the greater community of youth who hated hate. I don't know how many times I got the "if you hate the skins aren't you being racist too?" shebang.

We used to take the bus downtown and would skate up and down Colfax and there were CRIPS AND BLOODS! We would stop and chat with them and there was "no thing" going on, just interaction and learning. I'm sure some illicit shit was going down, but there was never anything to fear.


Maybe it's all time and place. But that's my experience.


Yeah we talked about this before actually. There was the same things a I was coming up, and the Poconos region was (and to some degree, perhaps even more seriously, still is) a hotbed for neo-nazi, far-right paramilitary, and militia activity. This bled out all over the region, but definitely did not survive in the cities. Neo-nazism briefly simmered up in the early-to-mid-nineties in the DIY punk music scene but was completely beaten back by the time I left. And it certainly has never been present or tolerated in the DIY punk music scene in Philly.

Of course it exists in the political and criminal arenas here now unfortunately but youth culture has really changed so much. I still go to basement shows and the idea of neo-nazi creep there is fairly unfathomable. There was a recent attempt to book an Aggravated Assault show here a few months ago and it got shut down by antifascists. I don't think millennials are going to tolerate it in the future.
The Rich and the Corporate remain in their hundred-year fever visions of Bolsheviks taking their stuff - JackRiddler
User avatar
Luther Blissett
 
Posts: 4991
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:31 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Drawing Lines Against Racism and Fascism

Postby 82_28 » Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:09 pm

Oh god yeah! That is a super interesting point about how it never caught on in the cities. We know "they tried", but failed. That's why, probably, all the wingers to this day hate the cities. Because they cannot penetrate the social mechanisms of getting along and living among one another. They hate transit, hate the fact Seattle kinda runs the show in this state, they hate the sight of "foreigners", they hate gay people etc etc. Truth is, is that we did the right thing because of liberal educations that taught us about the "greater good" and good upbringing which taught us to always be kind. Kindness is not passive.

Not everyone growing up got the ultimate message, but some did.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
User avatar
82_28
 
Posts: 11194
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:34 am
Location: North of Queen Anne
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Drawing Lines Against Racism and Fascism

Postby American Dream » Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:10 pm

https://leftyhooligan.wordpress.com/cat ... for-fools/

Image


Anarchism for Fools: “What’s Left?” April 2014, MRR #371

Part Three: Anarchism of-by-for Fools

What has to be stressed here, regardless of the philosophical foundations of Anarchism, is that National-Anarchism is Anarchism sui generis. An Anarchism of its own kind. We are not answerable to or responsible for the actions of those who also happen to call themselves ‘Anarchists,’ be they contemporary or in the past.
Troy Southgate


When I hear the term sui generis, I reach for my gun. Also, the term “beyond left and right.” Both are attempts to provide a patina of philosophical respectability to the idiocy that is National Anarchism (NA), an oxymoron if there ever was one.

Two columns ago, I discussed the relationship of capitalist libertarianism to historical libertarianism, that is, to old school anarchism. I didn’t require more than a sentence to position anarchism, which referred to itself as social anarchism, within the context of socialism or the Left as a whole. Individualist anarchism, up to and including its current capitalist iteration, is categorical in identifying the various schools of social anarchism as leftist. And that tiny yet shrill tendency calling itself post-left anarchism, first promulgated by Anarchy, A Journal of Desire Armed, acknowledges the leftism of much previous anarchism by defining itself as “post.” That NA describes itself as a unique “category in itself” suits most anarchists just fine, as they would be happy to be completely rid of these poseurs. NA is far from Fascism sui generis, however. In point of fact, NA is Fascism, simple and unadorned and quite generic.

Which brings up the tricky task of defining Fascism proper. The thumbnail description associated with Fascism is that it’s an “anti-liberal, anti-Marxist, anti-capitalist revolutionary ultra-nationalist ideology, social movement and regime.” This tweet-length one-liner is woefully insufficient for most academics interested in researching the nature of Fascism and coming up with a paradigmatic “Fascist Minimum” that can encompass as many types of ultra-right ideological/social phenomenon as possible. But for those on the ultra-right, the above sound bite of a description is too definitive because it tries to nail down what seeks to remain intentionally vague, flexible, and sui generis.

I noted the explosion of political ideas, associations and actions, left and right, that occurred from the fin de siècle to the beginning of the second World War. With respect to the European ultra-right in the decades inclusive of and following La Belle Époque, and aside from Mussolini’s Fascism and Hitler’s National Socialism, there was political futurism, Traditionalism (Evola), völkisch nationalism (Dickel), Novecentismo (Bontempelli), Maurras’s Action Française, young conservatism (Jung), conservative revolutionism (van den Bruck), Franco’s Spain and Salazar’s Portugal, national revolutionism (Jünger), the German Freikorps, the Croatian Ustasha, National Bolshevism (Niekisch), leftist “universal fascism” (Strasser), Codreanu’s Iron Guard, Perón’s Justicialismo, ad nauseum. This is by no means an exhaustive list of fascist, quasi-fascist, para-fascist, and crypto-fascist tendencies, movements and regimes in this era, and in a European context.

Despite the short-lived attempt to found a Fascist International Congress at Montreux, Switzerland in 1934-35, the relationships between these highly fractious tendencies, movements and regimes were often less than cordial, and sometimes quite brittle. To briefly illustrate: when National Socialist Germany and Fascist Italy formed their Rome-Berlin Axis in 1936 it became clear that Mussolini’s Italy was to play “second fiddle” to Hitler’s Germany in military expansion, empire building, and war against the allies. The Allied invasion of Italy led to German intervention and invasion to shore up Mussolini’s Fascist regime, resulting in the consolidation of the rump Italian Social Republic in northern Italy in 1943. The pseudo-leftist Salo Republic proved a “shrinking puppet-state of the Nazis in economic and agricultural production, in foreign affairs, and in the military campaign against the Allies.” (Roger Griffin) Both Germany and Italy came to the aid of Franco’s Nationalist rebels in Spain with military and financial assistance between 1936 and 1939. After Nationalist victory, Franco joined with Mussolini and Hitler to clamp down on liberal, democratic, secular social elements generally, and specifically to smash the international socialist working class, from anarchist to Bolshevik. But, given that Francoismo was above all traditionalist in orientation, Franco also dissolved the overtly fascist Falange as a party, declared Spanish neutrality, refused to enter the war as an ally of Germany, nixed a plan to seize Gibraltar and close the Mediterranean to the British fleet, and even allowed Jewish refugees escaping the Nazi Final Solution to transit Spanish territory. Italian Fascism made easy accord with the monarchy and the Vatican. Rightwing Italian critics of Mussolini and his Fascist regime were rarely imprisoned, but were occasionally placed under house arrest. Julius Evola was kept at arms length, never embraced but never renounced. Hitler’s National Socialist Germany was far more brutal in dealing with right wing critics and competitors. During the Night of the Long Knives (Operation Hummingbird) in 1934, Hitler ordered the murder of aristocratic and Catholic conservative opposition figures (von Bose, von Schleicher, von Kahr, Klausener, and Edgar Jung), as well as the purge of National Socialism’s left wing. Ernst Röhm, leader of the Sturmabteilung (SA), was first imprisoned and then killed, while Nazi leader Gregor Strasser was assassinated. His brother, Otto Strasser, was driven into exile. The literary figure, war veteran and national revolutionary Ernst Jünger was kept under constant surveillance by the regime.

(Röhm and the Strasser brothers considered themselves “second revolutionaries.” Yet it would be a “historical mondegreen,” referencing Death in June, to believe that the actual history of the Third Reich would have been much different had either of these three been führer instead of Hitler.)

Fascism guilefully thinks of itself as sui generis, beyond left and right. The various groupings within and surrounding Fascism, as well as its National Socialist “blood brother,” each insist on their status as sui generis. In attempting to synthesize a violent opposition to Enlightenment liberalism, Marxism, and capitalism with an embrace of populism, revolutionism, and ultra-nationalism, these ultra-right ideologies, movements and regimes exemplify not fusion and unification but splitting and division. Their sense of distinctiveness and uniqueness might be laid at the feet of Nietzsche and his philosophy of aristocratic individualism, what Jünger called the sovereign individualism of the Anarch. Yet more fundamental socio-political causes must be cited. Unlike Marxism’s highly programmatic politics, the Fascist ultra-right was decidedly less programmatic, and what platforms it did generate were intensely idiosyncratic. Leninism posited a scientific, universalist, international socialism that, when corrupted by nationalism, devolved into particular socialist types, say, a socialism with Chinese or Vietnamese or Cuban characteristics. By contrast, the particular cultural, social and national characteristics of the countries out of which Fascism arose, combined with Fascism’s innate syncretic tendencies, has produced a plethora of Fascist types. Consider the problem of nationalism. In opposition to the secular nationalism born of the Enlightenment, there is Evola’s Traditionalist pan-European Imperium on the one hand and on the other hand de Benoist’s Europe of a thousand flags comprised of separate tribal ethnies. Way stations along this spectrum are völkisch pan-Germanic Aryanism and the Romantic organic nationalism that was a fusion of local ethnic groups within a given nation-state. Then there is the issue of racism. National Socialism’s biological racism and virulent anti-Semitism stands in stark contrast to Italian Fascism which was relatively free of anti-Semitic and eugenic strains until influenced and then subsumed by Nazi Germany.

Academics and intellectuals, whose job it is to formulate unifying theories and overarching explanations of phenomenon, have been stymied by the variegated nature of Fascism. Attempts to define a “Fascist Minimum” have been as diverse as Fascism itself. Marxist approaches have predominated, and at times have been augmented by post-Marxist modernization, structural and psycho-historical theories. Liberal reactions to Fascism have remained thoroughly splintered, ranging from Nolte’s theme of resisting modernization to Payne’s understanding of a new kind of nationalist authoritarian state. A related conceptual constellation offered by Mosse’s “third way,” Sternhell’s “new civilization” and Eatwell’s “new synthesis” hints at a way forward. Personally, I find Roger Griffin’s summation that “Fascism is a political ideology whose mythic core in its various permutations is a palingenetic form of populist ultra-nationalism” the most convincing.*

Which brings us back to National Anarchism. Troy Southgate has been engaged in “serial Fascism” based on a “palingenetic form of populist ultra-nationalism” for most of his political career, pursuing the next big Fascist thing from the National Front, through the International Third Position, the English Nationalist Movement, the National Revolutionary Faction, Synthesis and the journal Alternative Green, to his current New Right and National Anarchist affiliation. “As a prelude to an anticipated racial civil war and a collapse of the capitalist system,” NA seeks to “[E]stablish autonomous villages for völkisch communities, which have seceded from the state’s economy and are no-go areas for unwelcomed ethnic groups and state authorities.” Setting aside the ersatz weekend hipster tribalism of your typical Burning Man participant as an outright insult to aboriginal realities, NA’s anti-statist ethnic tribalism is, in actuality, well within the range of Fascist nationalism demarcated by Evola and de Benoist. NA’s racism falls within the spectrum defined by German Nazism and Italian Fascism as well. (“My race is my nation,” or so goes the White Nationalist slogan.) Whether NA prefers mutualism or autarky to national socialism or corporatism for its so-called anti-capitalist economics is also not unusual. Presenting itself as a resynthesis of “classic fascism, Third Positionism, neo-anarchism and new types of anti-systemic politics born of the anti-globalization movement” simply reveals the syncretic character inherent in Fascism as a phenomenon. That this segment of the “groupuscular right” champions a “a stateless palingenetic ultranationalism” amounts to subtle nuance, not radical difference. Nothing distinguishes NA from Fascism proper. Nothing sui generis here. Absolutely nothing.

So, let’s forego all the academic abstractions and get down to brass tacks. Individuals who claim NA talk to, hang out with, organize among, and act alongside fellow ultra-right Fascists. They claim to “go beyond left and right,” but they fully identify themselves as New Right. If NAs rear their ugly pinheads on internet forums like anarchist LibCom or leftist RevLeft, they are immediately identified, isolated, and purged. And if they openly show their faces at explicitly anarchist and leftist events, they risk a serious beat down. In contrast, NAs can and do freely join, discuss, argue and debate on white nationalist/white supremacist forums like Stormfront. They’re also welcome on disgruntled anarcho-individualist and self-styled pan-secessionist Keith Preston’s greatly attenuated Attack The System forum. His American Revolutionary Vanguard argues that “the mainstream of the anarchist movement has become unduly focused on left-wing cultural politics, countercultural lifestyle matters, and liberal pet causes.” His stated goal is to go beyond the Left/Right political spectrum to: “work towards a synthesis of the currently scattered anarchist tendencies. These include anarcho-collectivism, syndicalism, mutualism, post-structuralism, Green anarchism, primitivism and neo-tribalism from the Left, and anarcho-capitalism, anarcho-monarchism, anarcho-feudalism, national-anarchism, tribal-anarchism, paleo-anarchism and Christian anarchism from the Right.”

Fuck this fascist noise!




*[F]ascism is best defined as a revolutionary form of nationalism, one that sets out to be a political, social and ethical revolution, welding the ‘people’ into a dynamic national community under new elites infused with heroic values. The core myth that inspires this project is that only a populist, trans-class movement of purifying, cathartic national rebirth (palingenesis) can stem the tide of decadence.
Roger Griffin, Nature of Fascism

[Fascism is] a genuinely revolutionary, trans-class form of anti-liberal, and in the last analysis, anti conservative nationalism. As such it is an ideology deeply bound up with modernization and modernity, one which has assumed a considerable variety of external forms to adapt itself to the particular historical and national context in which it appears, and has drawn a wide range of cultural and intellectual currents, both left and right, anti-modern and pro-modern, to articulate itself as a body of ideas, slogans, and doctrine. In the inter-war period it manifested itself primarily in the form of an elite-led “armed party” which attempted, mostly unsuccessfully, to generate a populist mass movement through a liturgical style of politics and a programme of radical policies which promised to overcome a threat posed by international socialism, to end the degeneration affecting the nation under liberalism, and to bring about a radical renewal of its social, political and cultural life as part of what was widely imagined to be the new era being inaugurated in Western civilization. The core mobilizing myth of fascism which conditions its ideology, propaganda, style of politics and actions is the vision of the nation’s imminent rebirth from decadence.
Roger Griffin, The palingenetic core of generic fascist ideology



Image
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Drawing Lines Against Racism and Fascism

Postby American Dream » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:24 pm

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/03/1 ... -the-Left#

Wolves in Sheep's Clothing; Racism, Anti-Semitism and Fascism: Infiltrating the Left

WB Reeves

Have you ever been in a discussion in an ostensibly progressive or Left venue only to suddenly find someone promoting a meme that seems drawn directly from the swamps of far Right extremism? Have you wondered how such a thing could come to be?

Have you ever been in a discussion in an ostensibly Progressive or Left venue only to suddenly find someone promoting a meme that seems drawn directly from the swamps of far Right extremism? Have you wondered how such a thing could come to be? A new article at Political Research Associates, Drawing Lines Against Racism and Fascism by Spencer Sunshine, examines this phenomenon and draws some provocative conclusions.

In the past weeks there has been a heightened discussion here on Kos about the use of such memes by Progressives and others on the Left. This article provides some useful insights that could help move the discussion forward, whether or not one accepts all of it's conclusions.

For many decades, the Far Right has disguised or rebranded its politics by establishing front groups, deploying code words, or using other attempts to fly under the radar.3 As the years pass by, some of these projects have taken on lives of their own as these forms have been adopted by those with different agendas. Simultaneously, there is a revival of fascist influence within countercultural music scenes. And intertwined with these changes is a renewed attempt on the part of some White separatists to participate in, or cross-recruit from, progressive circles.

Based on my own experience researching and organizing against Far Right extremism, I can second this without reservation. Far too many well intentioned folks are enthralled by stereotypical media depictions of the Far Right as ignorant, borderline morons incapable of pursuing sophisticated political and propaganda strategies. This is a dangerous misjudgement.

Far Right cross-recruiting from the Left has long been a problem, and some Far Right groups are now in a renewed period of doing it—while intentionally disguising and/or soft-selling their real aims. In recent years, this has been observed in anti-war, progressive populist, radical Left, anarchist, environmental, animal rights, anti-Zionist, counter-cultural, and religious­ (especially esoteric, occult, and neopagan Heathen) circles.4 Some begin by repeating a sophisticated left-wing critique of problems with contemporary society, draw upon Leftist symbols and cultural orientation, and then offer racial separatism (along with the rest of the Far Right package) as the answer to these problems. European New Right ideologue Alain de Benoist—who promotes ecology and denounces capitalism, the consumer society, and imperialism—is a prime example.5


Again, this comports with my own observations and research.

Antisemitism is a main theoretical plank for fascists and other Far Right actors, and Holocaust denial has always been a tactic with the goal of re-legitimizing fascism in the eyes of the public. Those who deny the Holocaust—one of the best-documented events of the last century—have no place in progressive political circles. The same goes for those who repeat traditional Nazi-era antisemitic conspiracies, such as that Jews control the government, banking system, or the mass media. This includes the propaganda group If Americans Knew or the American Free Press newspaper, which, while repeating classical antisemitic narratives, deploy code words such as “Zionists,” “Jewish neocons,” or the “Frankfurt School”—instead of “the Jews.”18


This is an extremely important point. Given the debate and conflict over Israel policy and actions regarding the Palestinians, there has never been a time when the Left was more vulnerable to this variety of racist sentiment.

The evidence shows that Far Right cross-recruiting and participation in progressive circles will not go away, and progressives should adopt policies—and have plans ready—to deal with anyone who falls under the above four categories who wants to enter, attend, or participate in any progressive organizations, physical spaces, events, or demonstrations.


The fight against such ideologies is at bottom a political struggle. As such it cannot be won by administrative means. It has to be fought out in the arena of public debate and mass agitation/opposition.

In order to effectively combat these efforts by the far right, it's important to be fully informed as to threat they pose. I highly recommend this article, including its copious foot notes, as a part of the process of self education.
"If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything."
-Malcolm X
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Drawing Lines Against Racism and Fascism

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:30 pm

Have you ever been in a discussion in an ostensibly Progressive or Left venue only to suddenly find someone promoting a meme that seems drawn directly from the swamps of far Right extremism? Have you wondered how such a thing could come to be?


I'd always just assumed that the radical right and radical left were mutually complimentary forms of mental illness, which would make cross-propagation easy -- and further, that the content of our belief systems has always been wholly secondary to how they make us feel.

The radical right and the radical left have always been far more concerned about each other than the societies they claim to be concerned with.

#TeamHarpy
User avatar
Wombaticus Rex
 
Posts: 10896
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:33 pm
Location: Vermontistan
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Drawing Lines Against Racism and Fascism

Postby American Dream » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:49 pm

As to radical left organizations, most any Maoist or Trotskyist organization in North America- the place I know best- would never, ever contemplate incorporating overtly racist/fascist ideas into their platform. Amongst the anti-authoritarian left groupings the racist/fascist trojan horse of "National Anarchism" has been roundly rejected.

It seems that it is certain subcultural/countercultural individuals with a presumed "lefty" orientation who have proven most vulnerable to the sway of far right ideas and- most importantly- that it is in the realm of conspiracy discourse that they find one of their most fruitful arenas of soliciting and recruiting support for various causes.
Last edited by American Dream on Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Drawing Lines Against Racism and Fascism

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:53 pm

American Dream » Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:49 am wrote:As to radical left organizations, most any Maoist or Trotskyist organizations in North America- the place I know best- would never, ever contemplate incorporating racist/fascist ideas into their platform.


Maoist/Trotskyists have no need of racism, they have classism. Who you put in the camps is beside the point: the camps are the point.

Kulaks like me have always been skeptical and counter-revolutionary types, though.

American Dream » Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:49 am wrote:It seems that it is certain subcultural/countercultural individuals with a presumed "lefty" orientation who have proven most vulnerable to the sway of far right ideas and- most importantly- that it is in the realm of conspiracy discourse that they find one of their most fruitful arenas of soliciting and recruiting support for various causes.


While your concern for the mentally retarded it touching, what else is it good for? You're going to protect people who cannot protect themselves and don't want your help?
User avatar
Wombaticus Rex
 
Posts: 10896
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:33 pm
Location: Vermontistan
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Drawing Lines Against Racism and Fascism

Postby American Dream » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:57 pm

I'm pretty critical of the various Maoist and Trotskyist organizations that I know of- for various reasons- but isn't antipathy towards the Ruling Class actually fairly appropriate?
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Drawing Lines Against Racism and Fascism

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:41 pm

American Dream » Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:57 am wrote:I'm pretty critical of the various Maoist and Trotskyist organizations that I know of- for various reasons- but isn't antipathy towards the Ruling Class actually fairly appropriate?


Classism does bear the virtue of being less stupid, as prejudices go, than racism or religious bigotry.

Funny how the results wind up about the same, though, huh? Resentment is a powerful motivator but not an ideal organizing principle for effective political movements...well, I mean, so far. I don't want to sound like I expect either "side" of this butchershop improv dance routine to stop experimenting.

Some day, comrade! Some day.

As ever, please bear in mind my petty drive-by trolling is not to imply I've got a better moral standing than you, or a better plan -- I have neither!
User avatar
Wombaticus Rex
 
Posts: 10896
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:33 pm
Location: Vermontistan
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Drawing Lines Against Racism and Fascism

Postby American Dream » Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:55 pm

Capital is first and foremost a social relationship. Therefore, blaming immigrants, Muslims, Jews, or other such scapegoats has very little in common with, say, Wobblies organizing under the banner of Dump the Bosses off Your Back:


American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Drawing Lines Against Racism and Fascism

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:23 pm

"Very little in common" is not how I would describe two dynamics which are precisely the same. In either case, you are blaming a category for social conditions -- attributing causality to The Other.

And in order to unleash the paradise cornucopia we all deserve, we need only eliminate The Other...and once they're all gone, of course, we must attend to The Hidden Other amongst us.

(My boss? Man, my boss is just as fucked as me -- she just endures that pain at a higher tax bracket. What should she do? Give up on her accomplishments and suffer like her employees?)

Thought Experiment: what would "Trotskyites" do if some Silicon Valley believer said "Okay, I agree with you. Let's spend ten billion dollars fixing this." - What then? I'm guessing they'd just print more propaganda, hold more conferences -- because there is no solution behind the rhetoric. Again and again, communists/socialists achieve their victory over the state and proceed to build another state. The primary difference between the two: this time, they're giving the orders. That's your social relationship.
User avatar
Wombaticus Rex
 
Posts: 10896
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:33 pm
Location: Vermontistan
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Drawing Lines Against Racism and Fascism

Postby American Dream » Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:16 pm

If Capital is not a thing but a social relationship hinging on production and the generation of profit, then most all of us are imbricated in it, most especially "workers" as they pursue the wages they need. So it is not really an "other"- it is us...

As to the Trotskyists I know of, if they were offered ten billion bucks, some would surely use it for electoral campaigns, others for labor organizing, others for media campaigns, etc. etc.
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Drawing Lines Against Racism and Fascism

Postby MacCruiskeen » Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:28 pm

There is no such thing as "classism." It is a bullshit term, designed to obfuscate.

Wombaticus Rex » Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:23 pm wrote:"Very little in common" is not how I would describe two dynamics which are precisely the same.


They are not precisely the same, as you well know. You work with words for a living, and also for pleasure and fulfilment. That's why it is dismaying to see you throw words around like cigarette butts, as if they were practically identical and all equally worthless.

In either case, you are blaming a category for social conditions [nope]-- attributing causality to The Other.


And this is a mistake how? "The Other" (e.g,, the World Bank, the IMF, the US Govt., the Pentagon, Microsoft, the East India Company, the Tsars, the Kings, the Roman Empire, landlords, bosses, etc., etc., etc.) -- you're claiming these entities exercise[d] no causality? That claim is original, if nothing else. You must be literally unique in believing it.

But of course you don't believe it. So why pretend you do? (See above.)
"Ich kann gar nicht so viel fressen, wie ich kotzen möchte." - Max Liebermann,, Berlin, 1933

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." - Richard Feynman, NYC, 1966

TESTDEMIC ➝ "CASE"DEMIC
User avatar
MacCruiskeen
 
Posts: 10558
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:47 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Drawing Lines Against Racism and Fascism

Postby MacCruiskeen » Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:45 pm

Wombaticus Rex » Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:23 pm wrote:(My boss? Man, my boss is just as fucked as me -- she just endures that pain at a higher tax bracket. What should she do? Give up on her accomplishments and suffer like her employees?)


WR, you know the discussion is not about your or your boss's personal fuckedness. In any case:

she just endures that pain at a higher tax bracket.


Nope. She endures -- therefore -- a different pain. Namely: a pain cushioned (but how exactly? worth thinking about) by what you choose (why?) to call "[her] higher tax bracket". There's a blindingly obvious reason why she's in a higher tax bracket, and that's that she gets more money from her employers (from the Old French word meaning "to use".) I don't know -- though I can guess -- why you choose to obfuscate that social relation by emphasising the higher tax rate the poor thing suffers for taking home more of the loot than you do.

And of course she's in pain too. Obviously. How could she not be?

MB: Given my academic background I have always been intrigued by ruling class alienation, celebrities and advertizing culture. It's interesting that your book argues that the ruling class experiences alienation. However you draw out some differences drawing from Bertel Ollman who claims “advantage is relative, rather than absolute.” How does the ruling class experience alienation?

DS: I think the ruling class experiences alienation in a variety of ways. For one thing, those in the ruling class are just as likely to have alienated relationships to others as anyone else. Their relationship to family and friends are just as likely to be mediated and dominated by the commodity form as those in the working-class. Moreover, an individual capitalist does not have much more control over the workings of the system than anyone else. They are subject to the demands of competitive accumulation and ‘the market.’ Their wealth and material status can often cushion the worst effects of this, allowing them to exert more control over their lives than someone completely dependent on a wage for survival, but they remain the prisoner of forces largely outside their control.

http://www.socialistproject.ca/bullet/818.php
"Ich kann gar nicht so viel fressen, wie ich kotzen möchte." - Max Liebermann,, Berlin, 1933

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." - Richard Feynman, NYC, 1966

TESTDEMIC ➝ "CASE"DEMIC
User avatar
MacCruiskeen
 
Posts: 10558
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:47 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 175 guests