Vaccine - Autism link

[stickdog99]

I for one applaud the new law in California. Vaccines are one of the greatest health related innovations in human history and have saved literally millions of children from horrible deaths. Something like 150000 children still die from measles every year (158000 in 2011 by WHO estimates), but noooo, we can't vaccinate, because there's a miniscule chance that there will be a side-effect. Anti-vaxxers have blood on their hands.

As has been stated on this thread multiple times, it appears that the basic theory behind vaccination science is sound. However, there does exist legitimate evidence that the "chance" you refer to above may be greater than minuscule, and that the side-effects may be quite serious.

It does not "appear" that the basic science is sound. It is, and it works. And yes, there's side-effects, which are miniscule compared to the benefits. It's not about the unlucky few who experience bad side-effects, it's about the vast majority who benefits from it (by not getting a horrible, crippling disease, or dying).

This is a nuanced subject, and should be treated as such.

No it's not. Seriously. Go have a look at the numbers for mortality rates for preventable diseases.

Do you believe the members of a profit-making medical industry - being "regulated" by its own CEOs - are too morally pure to place profits over human health? I don't consider this a wise assumption to make.

I think they have enough brains to realize it's good for business to sell something that works and saves lives. It makes everyone happy.

And how exactly are they "regulated" by their own CEOs? And in what way (regarding vaccines) are they placing profits over human health?

I hate this type of binary thinking. Because some vaccines' benefits have far exceeded their risks and costs, the entire vaccine cartel should be given carte blanche and relieved of all liability for harm. All vaccine "resisters" should be rounded up and shot.

Mindless monolithic aphorisms such as "vaccines are always good and people who question them are always bad" are the antithesis of true science and nothing more than fundamentalist secular religion masquerading as science.

[stickdog99]

We can't pass a law to save water from our fracking companies. We can't pass a law to feed our homeless! how is it that a law for forced vaccination, (if you want your constitutional right to an education), passed with unprecedented swiftness in the face of a non epidemic in which NO ONE DIED!

Because almost everyone is vaccinated!

Again, the vaccine argument is stupid. It does not stop ANYTHING from spreading. It stops YOU from getting it if it indeed works. And they do! But the anti-anti-vaxers are dumb. Anyone could be vaccinated against anything, but won't stop you from being a carrier. That is where the problem lies in the argument.

Two words: Herd immunity. It only works if everyone is vaccinated (95% or more of the population).
You being vaccinated prevents you from infecting anyone who for whatever reason (bad immune system, chemo-therapy etc.) isn't.

Two words that apply to the entire vaccination indu$try: herd impunity

[stickdog99]

I looked up Suzanne Humphries MD, author of the first link, and stopped right there. Here's a quote:

Vaccines are dangerous and should never be injected into anyone for any reason. They are not the answer to infectious diseases. There are many more sustainable and benevolent solutions than vaccines.

By "more sustainable and benevolent" she is of course talking about homeopathy (she's a homeopath too).

um, Doctor Suzanne Humphries is an MD, and Nephrologist (kidney specialist) http://drsuzanne.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/CV-11.5.21031.pdf

So she certainly has her street cred. and she came to her position through watching her kidney patients tank after vaccination. her work on vaccines is compelling, well researched, well proven, and highly controversial. The vaccine companies hate her. this, in my book, is a recomendation.

And then I couldn't help myself and looked at the other links too. It didn't get any better.
Not sure who's misinformed here.

apparently you, on this

I know she's an MD, that's why I wrote Suzanne Humphries MD. She's also a homeopath.

She had several patients experience kidney problems up to six weeks after taking the flu vaccine.
At the time, millions of people were getting that same vaccine. The odds of some people out of millions having kidney issues regardless are pretty good. Correlation does not equal causation.
Try again.

I'm going to be pedantic for a moment just to illustrate that you are not as educated as you think you are. The comment "correlation does not equal causation" is a non-sequitur relative to your previous statement, "The odds of some people out of millions having kidney issues regardless are pretty good." In fact, if the odds of an adverse renal event does not change with vaccination status, that is an example of a non-association, i.e. lack of correlation. Since causation must imply correlation, a lack of correlation implies a lack of causation. In other words, causal interpretation of an evident association is an entirely distinct issue. Of course your original point stands: it's likely that adverse events are going to appear in both vaccinated and non-vaccinated groups, and Humphries has not presented any data that would demonstrate an association (or lack thereof), i.e. that the incidence of such an event differs between the two groups.

Fair point. Note to self: Try again.

I'm being pedantic because you are presenting yourself as the lone rational voice when in fact your language reflects ignorance of basic epidemiology. I am inclined to agree that some, maybe even most, vaccines are safe and effective. The problem is that some vaccines, either existing or yet-to-be-developed, may not be safe. Because the FDA has a history of sometimes being lax in monitoring both safety and efficacy, it is dangerous to establish a government mandate for vaccination. The issue isn't vaccines per se, but ethical problems related to autonomy (one of the core principles of human subjects protections).

I'm not trying to pass myself off as some crusader of rationality, I just happen to disagree with the anti-vaccine hysteria that's currently doing the rounds. I agree that there are some issues of concern in regards to lax monitoring and general dickery from corporations chasing profits, but the answer to that is most definitely not homeopathy, or stopping all vaccinations. Better oversight and testing, and harsher consequences (no exemptions from consequences, criminal liability for the people in charge, HUGE fines, etc.) for corporations that play fast and loose would be a better way to do it.

But my general sentiment still stands: I think vaccines have done far more good than bad.

I'm inclined to agree. I also think marijuana does more good than bad. Should we make marijuana legally mandatory for everyone? Herd credulity?

[stickdog99]

Yeah, the problem is population vs. individual medicine. At a population level, I am willing to concede that vaccines are generally safe and effective. However, there are always subpopulations that will experience adverse events or nonresponse or both. The crude instrument of the law cannot address the nuance involved in determining these subpopulations and making exceptions for them. Thus, patient autonomy is key in all medications, including vaccines.

How then do you answer the question of whether children can attend public school without being vaccinated? Is there some limit on the medical autonomy of individuals when they pose a health risk to other individuals? The laws requiring vaccinations in order to attend public schools do not compel vaccination. Nor do they criminalize those who choose not to vaccinate. They simply provide an incentive to vaccinate. If you want your children to be able to attend public school they must be vaccinated.

http://www.publichealthlaw.net/Research/PDF/vaccine.pdf

What about quarantine and isolation laws?

http://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/aboutlaws ... ation.html

Show that the vaccines are safe. Prove that they are effective. Clearly demonstrate that the benefit of each recommended vaccine outweighs its costs and risks. If you do this, the herd will come to you.

Public education should be a right. This right should not be contingent on injecting your child with anything and everything Big Pharma lobbyists demand, whether or not its benefits have been shown to outweigh its costs and risks.

The last time I got the flu, it was because a housemate who got the flu vaccine got himself and all of rest of us sick. Why is the health risk posed to ourselves and others from vaccination just dandy, while the supposed health risk posed to others from not getting vaccinated simply assumed to be horrendous enough for demotion to the untouchable caste?

[stickdog99]

US sees its first measles death in a dozen years
Woman was on immunosuppressive drugs when exposed.
by John Timmer - Jul 2, 2015 10:40pm CEST

Today, Washington state health authorities announced that an autopsy revealed that a woman who had died earlier this year had succumbed to the measles, making her the first US casualty of the disease in a dozen years. The announcement comes just days after California's decision to tighten its vaccination requirements.

According to the announcement, the woman "had several other health conditions and was on medications that contributed to a suppressed immune system." Thus, even if she had been vaccinated (it wasn't clear if she had), her treatments put her at the mercy of herd immunity—having sufficient people immunized to prevent her from being exposed to the virus. But Washington has seen 11 cases of measles so far this year, half of them in the county where the woman was infected (Clallam, which covers the northern part of the Olympic Peninsula). The victim was apparently at a health clinic at the same time as an infectious individual.

In part because of her symptoms and other health conditions, the case was not diagnosed immediately but was only detected on autopsy.

Washington health authorities used the announcement to remind the public that "Public health officials recommend that everyone who is eligible for the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine get vaccinated so they can help protect themselves, their families, and the vulnerable people in their community."

http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/07/ ... zen-years/

Oh my God, a really sick person died of a case of measles so bad that it was never diagnosed until she was already dead. It must have been an unclean untouchable ant-vaxxer who murdered her!

[stickdog99]

Given that so many young women in a country as small as Denmark are reporting health problems after taking Gardasil, with 6100 estimated deaths in the US (a larger country) from HPV associated cancers; where does the crisis need to get all people vaccinated come from?


http://www.naturalblaze.com/2015/06/gar ... nmark.html

Health Rapporteur Liselott Blixt of the Danish People’s Party was one of the people who led the effort to get the HPV vaccine Gardasil introduced in Denmark in 2008. She now wants it abolished. She states:
The fact that we have so many, perhaps up to 5,000 young women who suddenly become so sick must have the consequence that we simply stop the vaccine. I was the first who said a big ‘yes’ to it, but now I will also be the first to abolish it, because we politicians must take responsibility for ensuring that we have adopted it. Not least in light of the fact that we do not actually have any treatment options to offer the most sick.
Let’s hope the authorities in Denmark follow expert advice and make sure that young women’s health is no longer sacrificed for the promise of a benefit fifteen to twenty years from now.

http://www.kegel.com/hpv/deaths/

Deaths per day due to HPV
In the US, if there are 6100 HPV cancer deaths per year, that's 16 per day, or one per 90 minutes.

My estimate is that among people who have access to regular medical care, fewer than 500 die of cancer associated with HPV in the US annually.

If you want to reduce the number of deaths fro HPV related cancer, all you have to do is test for HPV regularly and, if you test positive for HPV strains associated with cancer, get inspected for dysplasias even more regularly. Cervical cancer is nearly 100% treatable if it is detected before it is full blown.

[stickdog99]

slomo wrote:
I'm anti-homeopathy, principally because nobody will offer a reasonable mechanism as to how it can work. Even with the woo (some of which I can accept), I find explanations lacking. Re: vaccines, I'm not anti-vaccination either. I'll settle for keeping the status-quo, i.e. letting people decide for themselves and allowing them to opt-out without government intrusion.

Ideally yes, the status-quo would be fine. The problem is the upsurge in people refusing vaccination for their kids, resulting in the loss of herd immunity. No herd immunity means everyone with a compromised immune system is screwed.

And what could have possibly compromised the immune systems of all these poor folks who must now count on herd immunity in the first place? Surely, not dozens of injections designed to generate immune responses sufficiently efficacious to ward off potential viral threats decades later.

It's a hilarious argument. Because doctors know that vaccines can harm and kill certain vulnerable people, all vaccines need to be made 100% mandatory for anybody they are not so sure about.

[stickdog99]

Given that so many young women in a country as small as Denmark are reporting health problems after taking Gardasil, with 6100 estimated deaths in the US (a larger country) from HPV associated cancers; where does the crisis need to get all people vaccinated come from?


http://www.naturalblaze.com/2015/06/gar ... nmark.html

Health Rapporteur Liselott Blixt of the Danish People’s Party was one of the people who led the effort to get the HPV vaccine Gardasil introduced in Denmark in 2008. She now wants it abolished. She states:
The fact that we have so many, perhaps up to 5,000 young women who suddenly become so sick must have the consequence that we simply stop the vaccine. I was the first who said a big ‘yes’ to it, but now I will also be the first to abolish it, because we politicians must take responsibility for ensuring that we have adopted it. Not least in light of the fact that we do not actually have any treatment options to offer the most sick.
Let’s hope the authorities in Denmark follow expert advice and make sure that young women’s health is no longer sacrificed for the promise of a benefit fifteen to twenty years from now.

http://www.kegel.com/hpv/deaths/

Deaths per day due to HPV
In the US, if there are 6100 HPV cancer deaths per year, that's 16 per day, or one per 90 minutes.

According to the CDC:

Between June 2006 and March 2014, when about 67 million doses of HPV vaccine had been given out in the U.S., VAERS received 96 reports of death after people received the Gardasil vaccine. Among the 96 reports of death, many could not be further studied because there was not enough information included in the report to verify that a person had died. In 47 of the reports, CDC verified that the person had died through review of medical records, autopsy reports, and death certificates. After careful review of every known case of death that has happened after Gardasil vaccination, CDC concluded:

There is no diagnosis that would suggest Gardasil caused the death
There is no pattern of death occurring with respect to time after vaccination
There is no consistent vaccine dose number or combination of vaccines given among the reports

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/Vaccin ... _faqs.html

So that's 96 people dead in eight years versus 6100 people saved every year (48800 people in eight years). Pretty good trade if you ask me.

So you would trade dead healthy young girls who could afford the "finest" medical care (which is why they died, by the way), for dead old women who typically had not seen a doctor in over a decade when their cervical cancer was discovered? Have you ever heard the saying, "Do no harm"?

[stickdog99]

Jesus (or the Flying Sphaghetti Monster, may his noodliness ever reign) taught us that we don't trade people. Or even slaves. #AllLivesMatter

OK, so "trade" was a bad choice of word(s), but the choice is really simple. You can either have a few people dying, or metric craptons of people dying. Saying that one equals the other is crazy. It's like comparing a mass shooting to a major war and saying they're both equally bad.

Btw: Penicillin kills about 400 people every year in the US. Shouldn't we ban that too?
http://www.rightdiagnosis.com/p/penicil ... deaths.htm

No. Should we make it mandatory?

[stickdog99]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3148872/Woman-died-measles-vaccinated-patient-die-disease-U-S-12-years-succumbed-disease-health-problems.html




Woman who died of measles WAS vaccinated: First patient to die of disease in U.S. for 12 years succumbed to disease because of other health problems

The woman from Washington state passed away in the Spring
Health officials say other medications stopped her fighting infection
Her condition was not discovered until an autopsy was performed
Last American fatality as a result of the measles was in 2003

By Associated Press Reporter

Published: 14:29 EST, 3 July 2015 | Updated: 16:41 EST, 3 July 2015

A woman who became the first person to die of the measles in the U.S. in 12 years had been vaccinated against the disease, it has been revealed.

Health officials said she had the injection as a child but succumbed because she had a compromised immune system.

Dr. Jeanette Stehr-Green, the Clallam County health officer, told KOMO-TV the woman had been vaccinated as a child, but because she had other health problems and was taking medications that interfered with her response to an infection 'she was not protected.'

So, the woman was vaccinated, and the vaccine didn't protect her, so we should all be vaccinated to protect the previously vaccinated. circle-jerk much?

And again: This is why herd immunity is so important. Someone else infected her. If everyone had been vaccinated the chance of her being infected in the first place had been much lower.

Edit: More info: http://www.doh.wa.gov/Newsroom/2013News ... tesDecline

The vaccination rate for measles in Washington state (where she died) was well below the level required for effective herd immunity.

Surely it must have been the dumb herd's fault that she died from a measles infection. Surely it was not fault of the vaccine that was supposed to protect her against infection or the doctors who never diagnosed her condition.

[stickdog99]

I wonder what the Agenda21 population control people think of vaccination programs?





Once we see vaccination programs start to disappear and mortality rates begin to climb again I think we can guess who is behind it.

Why does correlation <> causation only apply to vaccine injuries?

[brainpanhandler]

http://www.activistpost.com/2015/08/for ... d-for.html

Monday, August 3, 2015
Former Merck Employee Targeted for Harassment, Intimidation After Speaking out Against Forced Vaccinations
By Melissa Dykes

...

People want to know, just for example, why it is that we have the most aggressive vaccination schedule in the developed world but also the highest rate of infant mortality?

...

I assume what she meant to say was, "People want to know, just for example, why it is that we have the most aggressive vaccination schedule in the developed world but also the highest rate of infant mortality in the developed world?"

The reasons have to do with the differences in the way countries define and count live births and also the disparity between the way the well off and the poor in the United States have access to good health care relative to other developed countries. If a more aggressive vaccination schedule has anything to do with it, it is probably little to nothing in comparison to those two factors.

[brainpanhandler]

Why does correlation <> causation only apply to vaccine injuries?

Who said it did?

In fact correlation never equals causation. To prove causation requires different kinds of evidence. However, there are different levels of correlation. And when the correlation becomes overwhelming then even in the absence of formal, scientific proof some causative relationship can be provisionally inferred.

You're not really questioning the the disease prevention of vaccines are you?

[brainpanhandler]

I hate this type of binary thinking. Because some vaccines' benefits have far exceeded their risks and costs, the entire vaccine cartel should be given carte blanche and relieved of all liability for harm. All vaccine "resisters" should be rounded up and shot.

I hate this sort of strawman manufacture.

Mindless monolithic aphorisms such as "vaccines are always good and people who question them are always bad" are the antithesis of true science and nothing more than fundamentalist secular religion masquerading as science.

Who ever said in this thread any such "Mindless monolithic aphorisms such as "vaccines are always good and people who question them are always bad""? Strawman manufacture always bad.

[brainpanhandler]

We can't pass a law to save water from our fracking companies. We can't pass a law to feed our homeless! how is it that a law for forced vaccination, (if you want your constitutional right to an education), passed with unprecedented swiftness in the face of a non epidemic in which NO ONE DIED!

Because almost everyone is vaccinated!

Again, the vaccine argument is stupid. It does not stop ANYTHING from spreading. It stops YOU from getting it if it indeed works. And they do! But the anti-anti-vaxers are dumb. Anyone could be vaccinated against anything, but won't stop you from being a carrier. That is where the problem lies in the argument.

Two words: Herd immunity. It only works if everyone is vaccinated (95% or more of the population).
You being vaccinated prevents you from infecting anyone who for whatever reason (bad immune system, chemo-therapy etc.) isn't.

Two words that apply to the entire vaccination indu$try: herd impunity

What does that even mean?