Ryan Dawson

[divideandconquer]

I do not question the fact that a vast number (whether that number is one million or six million, who knows?) of Jewish people were tortured and murdered in Germany during WWII, not at all. However, I don't think questioning the actions and motives of Zionists--not the Jewish people, after all, Joe Biden calls himself a Zionist--constitutes fascist/anti-Semitic tendencies. Zionists are a very powerful and, in my humble opinion, very racist group of people, who use the Holocaust to sanction the same kind of behavior of their supposed enemy. I know a few people who have relatives and/or friends living in the West Bank and from what they tell me, the treatment of the Palestinians in that area is even worse than we're led to believe.

As I see it, at the very top of the power structure, race and religion, as we understand it, anyway, are secondary to their overall objective: global dominance. In other words, this infinitesimally small group of people know they must work with each other--yes, that includes the Zionists and the Nazis-- despite their differences to ensure that the 99.9% remain subservient, to ensure they get what they want . They understand something we don't: united they stand, divided, especially considering their size, they most assuredly will fall.

Just imagine what would happen if even 5% of the masses united against them. I think that thought is enough to get this tiny group of wealthy and powerful people to put aside race, religion and ideology.

[brainpanhandler]

a type of Progressive Orthodoxy, which seems to thrive most in places like the Huffington Post, the online magazine for First World Problems. This also intersects the Church of Scientism, where adherents have to demonstrate the worship of cultural tropes of "Science" and "Reason" - their tropes, NOT what they actually are.

I would say the nadir is reached with someone like Bill Maher.

I think this lack of progressive self-reflection 'seeing ourselves in the mirror, warts and all' as one of the reasons why there is a parallel rise in the Red Ice et al bullshit.

I was with you until the end there. That may be one of the reasons, but that is just further condemnation of the nitwits sliding into pseudofascistic/racist/right wing orbits.

I hate Bill Maher, therefore Ryan Dawson. Fuck that.

Think for yourself, I say.

[brainpanhandler]

I do not question the fact that a vast number (whether that number is one million or six million, who knows?)

The Nazis kept meticulous records. Tens of millions of documents exist recording their atrocities. We know, to a much greater degree of certainty than "give or take 5 million."

[IanEye]

The Nazis kept meticulous records.

Herman Hollerith's tabulating machine.

[divideandconquer]

As far as I know, the only basis for the "six million" is an affidavit from a Nazi leader claiming that Adolf Eichmann told him that 4 million were killed in the camps and 2 million were killed by Einsatzgruppen, which Eichmann never corroborated.

Aside from what was basically considered hearsay, that number has fluctuated. If 6 million were executed, it doesn't make sense that by 1965 over 3 million survivors, claiming indemnities, were registered with the West German Republic and by 1984, over well 4 million (estimated over 2/3 Jewish) survivors received restitution payments according to "Restitution in Germany," May 1985.

Prewar: 3 million Jews in Poland, In prewar central Europe: "the largest Jewish community was in Germany, with about 525,000 members (0.75% of the total German population). This was followed by Hungary with 445,000 (5.1%), Czechoslovakia with 357,000 (2.4%), and Austria with 191,000, most of whom resided in the capital city of Vienna (2.8%). "

I'm not attempting to downplay what happened to the Jewish people during the Holocaust. I'm sure, at the very least, one million Jews were executed, not to mention, the survivors who endured conditions beyond imagination. One million is just as terrible as six million. What infuriates me are the people who use this genocide, perhaps even inflating the number for effect, making it sacrosanct, in order to justify their own genocidal behavior.

[IanEye]

We are very much like the physician, in that we dissect, cell by cell, the German cultural body. We report every individual characteristic on a little card. These are not dead cards, quite to the contrary, they prove later on that they come to life when the cards are sorted at a rate of 25,000 per hour according to certain characteristics. These characteristics are grouped like the organs of our cultural body, and they will be calculated and determined with the help of our tabulating machine.

We are proud that we may assist in such task, a task that provides our nation's Physician with the material he needs for his examinations. Our Physician can then determine whether the calculated values are in harmony with the health of our people. It also means that if such is not the case, our Physician can take corrective procedures to correct the sick circumstances. Our characteristics are deeply rooted in our race. Therefore, we must cherish them like a holy shrine which we will — and must — keep pure.

We have the deepest trust in our Physician and will follow his instructions in blind faith, because we know that he will lead our people to a great future. Hail to our German people and der Führer!

- W. Heidinger

*



*

[coffin_dodger]

Heidinger principle x infinity = NSA

[Wombaticus Rex]

Heidinger principle x infinity = NSA

A more apt analogy would be the less-Messianic rival of the Gehlen Org, the Stasi.

Stasi were more interested in management than eugenics; and their depth of penetration was quite similar.

I get the impression nobody was better at pure intelligence than the Russians & Israelis.

[Searcher08]

a type of Progressive Orthodoxy, which seems to thrive most in places like the Huffington Post, the online magazine for First World Problems. This also intersects the Church of Scientism, where adherents have to demonstrate the worship of cultural tropes of "Science" and "Reason" - their tropes, NOT what they actually are.

I would say the nadir is reached with someone like Bill Maher.

I think this lack of progressive self-reflection 'seeing ourselves in the mirror, warts and all' as one of the reasons why there is a parallel rise in the Red Ice et al bullshit.

I was with you until the end there. That may be one of the reasons, but that is just further condemnation of the nitwits sliding into pseudofascistic/racist/right wing orbits.

I hate Bill Maher, therefore Ryan Dawson. Fuck that.

Think for yourself, I say.

Sorry, bph - that last paragraph of mine was *not* clear.

I certainly was not intending to imply "I hate Bill Maher, therefore Ryan Dawson"

I meant to say that to me, the best way to deal with the 'pseudofascism' trend is by using a similar approach to Nizkor with Holocaust revisionists, which is to be open, honest, engaging and factual. Welcome ALL questions and let them be dealt with.
My observation ( and something which really helped form my opinion of most Holocaust Revisionists) is that THEY were the ones running away from fact-based dialogue. They challenged people to debate but then when Nizkor actually showed up, the only thing there was the sound of crickets

This approach is one which sadly doesn't have much traction in some progressive circles, (depending I think on on how much one is driven by underlying metaphors of 'infection' and 'contamination'.) Progressives facing up to that side of them which is often more 'Othering' and de-humanising than willing to engage in robust but polite engagement would be a powerful means of dealing with this trend.

[brainpanhandler]

a type of Progressive Orthodoxy, which seems to thrive most in places like the Huffington Post, the online magazine for First World Problems. This also intersects the Church of Scientism, where adherents have to demonstrate the worship of cultural tropes of "Science" and "Reason" - their tropes, NOT what they actually are.

I would say the nadir is reached with someone like Bill Maher.

I think this lack of progressive self-reflection 'seeing ourselves in the mirror, warts and all' as one of the reasons why there is a parallel rise in the Red Ice et al bullshit.

I was with you until the end there. That may be one of the reasons, but that is just further condemnation of the nitwits sliding into pseudofascistic/racist/right wing orbits.

I hate Bill Maher, therefore Ryan Dawson. Fuck that.

Think for yourself, I say.

Sorry, bph - that last paragraph of mine was *not* clear.

I certainly was not intending to imply "I hate Bill Maher, therefore Ryan Dawson"

I was not clear either apparently. I was not saying this was true of you personally, but rather that you were creating a credible excuse for others to allow their revulsion with a Maher to justifiably steer them toward the Dawson end of things. Small point made poorly. And really, it's not like Dawson is Rense.

I meant to say that to me, the best way to deal with the 'pseudofascism' trend is by using a similar approach to Nizkor with Holocaust revisionists, which is to be open, honest, engaging and factual. Welcome ALL questions and let them be dealt with.
My observation ( and something which really helped form my opinion of most Holocaust Revisionists) is that THEY were the ones running away from fact-based dialogue. They challenged people to debate but then when Nizkor actually showed up, the only thing there was the sound of crickets

This approach is one which sadly doesn't have much traction in some progressive circles, (depending I think on on how much one is driven by underlying metaphors of 'infection' and 'contamination'.) Progressives facing up to that side of them which is often more 'Othering' and de-humanising than willing to engage in robust but polite engagement would be a powerful means of dealing with this trend.

Agreed, more or less.

The 'othering' that occurs in the context of the internet though is partly, perhaps largely, a function of the impersonal nature of such exchange. It also gets tiring having the same debate over and over and over, even if it is with different people, and I just lose patience sometimes.

And you have to admit that a common tactic of holocaust revisionists or any historical revisionists with an agenda to bury or obfuscate the truth is to innocently claim, "I'm just asking questions" as an opener and cry censorship at the slightest sign of a failure to patiently entertain them endlessly. It's a useful and partly successful tactic.

[brainpanhandler]

As far as I know, the only basis for the "six million" is an affidavit from a Nazi leader claiming that Adolf Eichmann told him that 4 million were killed in the camps and 2 million were killed by Einsatzgruppen, which Eichmann never corroborated.

Aside from what was basically considered hearsay, that number has fluctuated. If 6 million were executed, it doesn't make sense that by 1965 over 3 million survivors, claiming indemnities, were registered with the West German Republic and by 1984, over well 4 million (estimated over 2/3 Jewish) survivors received restitution payments according to "Restitution in Germany," May 1985.

Prewar: 3 million Jews in Poland, In prewar central Europe: "the largest Jewish community was in Germany, with about 525,000 members (0.75% of the total German population). This was followed by Hungary with 445,000 (5.1%), Czechoslovakia with 357,000 (2.4%), and Austria with 191,000, most of whom resided in the capital city of Vienna (2.8%). "

I'm not attempting to downplay what happened to the Jewish people during the Holocaust. I'm sure, at the very least, one million Jews were executed, not to mention, the survivors who endured conditions beyond imagination. One million is just as terrible as six million.

Depends on the definition of 'survivor'. The documentation is freely available. The number of jews murdered by the nazis varies on the basis of a number of definitions. I'll let you do your own research.

The debate over the actual number of jews murdered by the nazis, necessarily estimates, is in my experience often the thin end of a wedge used to create an opening for revisionists. When I see it I become imo justifiably suspicious.

What infuriates me are the people who use this genocide, perhaps even inflating the number for effect, making it sacrosanct, in order to justify their own genocidal behavior.

I am uncomfortable also with 'The Holocaust' thinking. I get that. There have been many genocides. But the Jews have been systematically persecuted as a people for a very long time. The fact that the jewish state and the zionists use this history as cover for their own genocidal crimes, to the degree that they do, is indeed infuriating and god only knows what sort of evil they are setting their own people up for some time in the future.

[coffin_dodger]

bph said:

...to bury or obfuscate the truth...

Can you point me to where you get the truth from, please? i.e. the source. I'd be very, very interested to experience it - it would be a first, for me!

[brainpanhandler]

bph said:

...to bury or obfuscate the truth...

Can you point me to where you get the truth from, please? i.e. the source. I'd be very, very interested to experience it - it would be a first, for me!

I hesitated to use the words 'the truth' because I thought someone might choose to pedantically question it. We're not talking epistemology. "Historical truth" is a question of probabilities and is never an exact science. Depends on the quality and quantity of evidence. I take that as a given and resist the need to explain it every time I use the words 'the truth'.

[divideandconquer]

And you have to admit that a common tactic of holocaust revisionists or any historical revisionists with an agenda to bury or obfuscate the truth is to innocently claim, "I'm just asking questions" as an opener and cry censorship at the slightest sign of a failure to patiently entertain them endlessly. It's a useful and partly successful tactic.

Why/how did this number, six million, become so sacred in the first place? It's as if they're baiting the anti-Semites so they can use it in their campaign to silence critics of Israeli policy. I mean, how many millions of native Americans were slaughtered? African Americans? Africans? Rwandans slaughtered in less than 100 days? Palestinians? Armenians? All clearly genocide, only some spread out over centuries. Yet, no hallowed number, or powerful political group using the questioning of that anointed number to justify accusations of racism in their campaign to silence critics of their nation's policies.

The debate over the actual number of jews murdered by the nazis, necessarily estimates, is in my experience often the thin end of a wedge used to create an opening for revisionists. When I see it I become imo justifiably suspicious.

Once again, why discredit, defame and silence those with opposing viewpoints or questions? When I see this, I become suspicious. If it's true, ask away...nothing to hide.

[tapitsbo]

I do not question the fact that a vast number (whether that number is one million or six million, who knows?)

The Nazis kept meticulous records. Tens of millions of documents exist recording their atrocities. We know, to a much greater degree of certainty than "give or take 5 million."

I do not feel qualified to evaluate this claim; what I do know is that I have been taught in university that understanding the holocaust requires a rejection of documentary evidence in favour of eyewitness testimony.

Part of the explanation for this was indeed a problem of missing or incomplete documentation - then there is the converse claim about meticulous records.

What is going on here? I certainly don't trust either the mainstream or "revisionist" narratives.