You state:
“From at least 2003 on, US intelligence began to actively groom, train, finance and embed its own agents in the Egyptian media, political parties, student and other grassroots groups…”
With full support and cognizance of Mubarak. I'm agreeing with you here.
You really struggle to show that Mubarak and the United States were at odds politically or diplomatically. Every indication is that Mubarak was very close to the U.S. and to its intelligence agencies. You present evidence of this deterioration in relations by posting a video that will not load for me. Still, a comment by Condi doesn’t constitute anything of real substance in Egyptain-American relations. Platitudes are made publically all the time. Action is what matters.
If Mubarack was close to the United States and Israel then who was Mubarack’s greatest opposition? An illegal organization that made effort to challenge Egypt’s cozy relationship with Israel. Why would such a position be advocated for by the U.S. and Israel? You state there was much pro-Muslim Brotherhood propaganda in the media. I cite to the contrary: Elmasry, Mohamed (28 June 2013). "Unpacking Anti-Muslim Brotherhood Discourse". Jadaliyya.
“During the same year, a number of secular anti-government organizations and movements began emerging out of the blue, led by "Kefaya!" and "Judges for Egypt". The first was secretly financed and run by Soros organizations, and the second was a front for the Muslim Brotherhood.”
Kefaya? So what? Not exactly nefarious to advocate a free and open society. If I was a billionaire I would do the same. Judges for Egypt a front for MB? Of course, afterall the MB, the only real opposition to Mubarack, was driven underground and made illegal. Still, these are secular or quasi-secular organizations as you admit. Does the U.S. want to force a secular or a religious fanatic regime on Egypt? Which is it? Your narrative in this regard is breaking down. The April 6th Youth Movement is also a secular organization. Everything about their purpose seems admirable. I’m interested in you producing a link citing the direct funding from IRI as you claim. I’m aware Adel was involved in Kefaya. If attending a training seminar from the Center for Non-Violent Action and Strategies is the proof, then you are leaving a lot to be desired. Still, if foreign elements had no mass traction, then who were these local indigenous dupes who numbered in the tens of thousands and who gave them their support? Unknowing cogs of the machine beholden to foreign interests? It doesn’t work that way.
“and Omar Afifi, a rogue Egyptian police officer operating a central communications command only a few kilometers away from Langley, Virginia, among others.”
No not rogue. This was standard for Egypt’s military oligarchy. Again the Egyptain military police state was already very cozy with the CIA. These type of collaborations were not revealing. If anything they seem to indicate that the CIA and Afifi were coordinating on behalf of the Egyptain military oligarchy to maneuver into power again if the MB were to assume power, effectively denying the Egyptain military’s role in governance. Afifi’s coordination with Wael is tenuous or downright unproven. I would like to see your citation showing their collaboration-, although if definitive of collaboration, may indicate a double-agent penetration into the MB by Wael. Wouldn’t be the first time, that’s for sure.
Atassi’s association with Al-Khatib is damning and I wasn't aware of it. But it is damning only to a small degree. Syria wasn’t forced to release Atassi from prison by western intelligence. Her travel to Turkey and the U.S. amounts to her wanting to escape the violence. If she stays, she is a target. It’s not like she can stay in Syria and become a modern day Joan of Arc as savior. Al-Khatib here is interesting for his oil connections and his membership in the Muslim Brotherhood, of a much different flavor than Egypt’s. This is largely irrelevant here. He might be a bad guy, but that doesn’t mean she is. You have no problem being suspicious of Atassi’s association with Al-Khatib, but you ignore Al Sisi’s background. As I state in the other thread, “A graduate of the U.S. Army War College and a director of Egyptain military intelligence during Mubarack's reign, al-Sisi was firmly within the apparatus during the CIA extraordinary rendition program that saw many tortured and killed in Egypt on behalf of the CIA.” Interesting that you are selective in this way. Why do you call Morsi an Intelligence asset in that thread, when that accusation is far easier to infer unto al-Sisi given his actual relationship with the United States Military and Egyptian intelligence?
“In answer to your last question, yes. Tripoli, in northern Lebanon, around a 60-mile drive away, has been transformed since at least 2006 into a center of violent Salafism, flooded with weapons and extremist preachers and recruiters for "armed jihad", after the Saudi-backed Siniora and Saad Hariri governments collaborated with the US embassy to set up a "Sunni" fanatic base of operations there. The weapons and money flowed in, and the penniless and hyped-up young men flowed out for military training in Jordan, then were brought back home to put their training to good use against the Shi'ite "infidels". So, yes, in answer to your question: Homs was an ideal launching pad for the fake Syrian "revolution".”
Well Damascus was only a little further way, why not there? Wouldn’t that be more ideal? You know, if you were trying to overthrow the Syrian regime Damascus would be a great place to try. Radicalization has increased everywhere. I blame it on the American invasion of Iraq and the Saudis being assholes. Meanwhile the Shiites in south Lebanon have experienced quite a bit of violence themselves. Interesting that the CIA managed to convince military commanders in Homs to overthrow Assad. What would make those military commanders so sure their fellow soldiers would obey their insurrection on behest of foreign motivations?
Additionally you state,
“As for the operation being activated in several Arab countries at the beginning of 2011, the lead "secular" actors were part of a single network and in communication with each other and with their handlers. It goes without saying that the Muslim Brothers were tightly coordinating with each other and their own bosses.”
Coordination isn’t the word that comes to mind for a spontaneous outpouring by hundreds of thousands across Asia and Africa. This is like saying the Communist Party is responsible for the spontaneous outpourings of the Occupy movement because they are somewhat ideologically linked. It doesn’t work that way just because you say it does.
“As for your other questions, the very fact that the so-called revolution has lasted just under five long, agonizing years and failed, despite being supported financially, logistically, politically and militarily by some of the wealthiest and most powerful states on earth, should give you a clue that it's not a real revolution at all, and is not supported by the Syrian people. Especially given the huge disparity in terms of resources and military capabilities on the two sides.”
I agree wholeheartedly. The U.S. is now more interested in stoking the flames and the U.S. isn’t interested in revolutionary change. This doesn’t prove any point in our debate.
“No. People who aren't traitors do NOT attack their own country's military defenses, especially with a neighbor like Israel just next door. And I can't imagine what strategic advantage the supposed protesters would get from damaging Syria's capacity to defend itself from military air strikes. Back in 2005, when the so-called "Cedar Revolution" CIA op broke out in Lebanon, and demanded that Syria withdraw its air-force defense of Lebanese air space (chanting for "an end to the Syrian occupation!"), I immediately understood that Israel was planning to launch a military attack against Lebanon. I swear, everybody thought I was crazy. Sure enough, in July 2006, Syria bombed Lebanon and launched a massive military invasion that began with air-strikes, destroying much of Lebanon's civil infrastructure, then sending in ground troops. It's just common sense, which I guess isn't that common.”
Sure they do. Especially when we are talking about insurrectionary military units and not protestors. I’m very glad you were able to predict Israel’s strike on Lebanon.
“First. stop calling it a civil war. One one side, you have the Syrian government, headed by the legitimate, elected president and the Syrian Army and the Syrian people, and on the other you have proxies for hostile foreign powers, entirely funded and armed and run by the country's enemies. The genuine Syrian opposition love their country and their people, and they would never tear it apart for the vultures to pick over, let alone for filthy foreign money. They want change, but not at the cost of killing their own people and turning them into traumatized refugees, and collaborating with murderous wackos and mercenaries vomited up from the four corners of the world to "wage jihad".”
This is not acceptable. I will not allow you to call the Syrian dictatorship “legitimate” or claim Assad as duly “elected”. What is it with you rushing to defend dictatorships – in Egypt or Syria? You state it is only a war of indigenous Syrians loyal to Assad against foreign elements. You do not accept that indigenous Syrians can be opposed to Assad. In Egypt, I suppose Al-Sisi is a legitimate leader because he was elected with 93% of the vote (with a lower voter turnout than 2012 in which Morsi was elected), the primary opposition killed or outlawed and himself installed as autocratic leader a year before in a military coup – then overseeing the electoral process. But then, the nuances and complexities of Egyptian politics must escape me.
“It doesn't matter at all if you think that the US is happy with our current administration, or that their bilateral ties are warm and fuzzy. It matters even less that you think it's a "pro-Israeli" government. That's fine. I'm sorry you found my "masterful analysis" incoherent. I worked hard to make it as straightforward as possible, given such a broad and complicated subject. It was intended to be like the picture on the cover of a jigsaw puzzle, as a guide to help people know where to put all those tiny, separate pieces. If it was helpful to anybody, then good. If not, then too bad.”
Well, again, Egypt, Israel and the U.S. were each other’s clients and have supported each other the better part of two decades before the revolution and after the revolution. During the revolution was the time to act to break from the American and Israeli intelligence apparatus. If you are in denial of this, that no change of any effect has been garnered, then that is your denial. Not mine. It is after all your country, not mine.
Historical revisionism is obfuscating that 2011 was a time in which we should take inspiration from. The struggles of these people are being dismissed by some cynics here as some grand plan by the West. I’m talking to you 8bitagent. How many on this board forgot the name, Mohamed Bouazizi? To quote Alice on the 2011 demonstrations, “The heartfelt participation of millions of well-intentioned Egyptians also served to reassure me that it was real.” It was real, Alice. It’s not anymore.
