Segregation: A Modest Proposal

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Re: Segregation: A good idea making a comeback

Postby justdrew » Wed Oct 14, 2015 10:08 pm

harvey, FFS. :wallhead:

"Hydrogen Matters"

do you interpret that statement to suggest I think that the other elements are unimportant?
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Re: Segregation: A good idea making a comeback

Postby backtoiam » Wed Oct 14, 2015 10:15 pm

Harvey » Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:58 pm wrote:Some questions:

1. Is there a White Lives Matter movement in the USA? Why not?

2. Is there a Black Lives Matter movement in any 'western' nation other than the USA? Why not?

3. Are there cycles of heightened racial identification in the USA? If so, frequency? Relationship to extrinsic events? Who benefits?

4. How might poorer 'whites' and 'blacks' with similar social and economic grievances be encouraged to find or reject solidarity?

5. Is this thread real or did I imagine it?


Good point Harvey.

Hey there is a "white" crayon in the box too. Who knew right? Who knew white was also a color?

When I hear people talk about "colors" even though they may, or may 'not', mean well, I just see an unwitting, or witting, tool in use of the cult of division and destruction at work.

The people that foment this intentionally and willingly will always decry the flame, while also stoking the blaze.

Those who do it unwillingly, unknowingly, are the suckers of their own demise caught in the liminal space.


"yeah, yeah, but its real." No it isn't. Colors don't do this, people using colors to divide and conquer and convince the colors they hate each other, fucking do this, or are unwitting tools.

For Pete's fucking sake...

No since in having all these colors play nicely together huh?
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Re: Segregation: A good idea making a comeback

Postby Searcher08 » Wed Oct 14, 2015 11:10 pm

Years ago a friend who was Indian told of an Indian friend of hers who felt she was being subjected to daily racism by many people. This person then came down with really bad vitligo and basically turned 'white'. She described her amazement at finding that many of the people she considered racist were actually just assholes. What about albinos of black parents? Are they white or black?
The idea that Black or Asian people cannot be racist is howling nonsense that comes from (for me) a horribly Western-centric mindset. Hutus vs Tutsi and Japanese vs Koreans come to mind.
Why is Obama black (with a white mother)but the Oregon shooter white (with a black mother)?
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Re: Segregation: A good idea making a comeback

Postby FourthBase » Wed Oct 14, 2015 11:27 pm

What a great "anti-fascist" board...
Un-fucking-believable.

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Re: Segregation: A good idea making a comeback

Postby General Patton » Wed Oct 14, 2015 11:50 pm

FourthBase » Wed Oct 14, 2015 10:27 pm wrote:What a great "anti-fascist" board...
Un-fucking-believable.

:whiteflagsurrender:


It takes years of experience to shitpost as hard as I do.

Also, at the risk of straying on topic, how do you feel about these PoC only spaces that are proliferating? Or well off white liberals who live in 90%+ white neighborhoods who lecture everyone else about white privilege?
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Re: Segregation: A good idea making a comeback

Postby Nordic » Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:55 am

Thinking of people by race is idiotic.

I live in LA, and I am surrounded, everywhere, by people from all over the world. And because these people live here, they fall in love, have kids, and you have a huge population of people who can be called "mixed".

It's so pointless. The longer I live here the less I even notice the race of a person. Which is REALLY different from when I was young.

Some comedian once said "you can't be a racist in Los Angeles. You'd be exhausted". And he was exactly right.

To have a yoga class for Non-whites only makes you have to decide who is white and who isn't. Nobody can do that.

Why is "people of color" considered ok when the old term "colored people" is considered taboo and racist. THEY'RE THE SAME FUCKING WORDS.

Dividing people by what again? Their DNA? Well our DNA is all mixed up.

One of the coolest things I've done in a while is the National Geographic DNA testing. My sister did it first, and paid for me to do mine (I never would have done it otherwise). They send you a kit, you scrape off some cheek cells, and send it in for testing. Weeks later you get a report that lets you trace the geography of your DNA over the last few thousand years.

It's so enlightening because it shows we are all completely in flux, frozen in a moment in time right now, where all these different "races" are nothing more than currents and eddys in a river of human population movement. Deciding what "race" we are is completely meaningless, because at different moments in time in the past, we were ALL different "races". My lineage was traced back (as they all are) ultimately to Africa, then it moved north, and east, and for a time my ancestors were mostly in the Middle East, then in Turkey (especially on my Dad's side), then after a LONG time moved up into europe. Although I appear very "nordic" (hence my moniker here, people always think I'm from Norway or Sweden (sorry, it's not because i consider myself a Hitlerian Ubermensch)) I have just as much DNA which hails from Turkey and present-day Iraq and that entire area than I do of Norway and Germania. While there seemed to be a strange pocket of northern Norway DNA on my mother's side (and she was largely Swiss German and Irish), even that is just one of a near-infinite numbers of places my DNA has visited over the millenia.

Everybody should do this. It's fascinating and it will make flush out a lot of racism you may have inside of you, even if you have very little. It's just so silly to call ourselves by individual "races" now, when this is just a tiny moment in a long, long river of time. Three thousand years ago, the races may have all been considerably different-looking, and we'd all be related to pretty much all of them.
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Re: Segregation: A good idea making a comeback

Postby tapitsbo » Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:15 am

^^^If only it was like this. When I grew up in Toronto there was an attitude much like what you describe - yes there was structural racism but there was definitely an attitude that everyone should be included, and very little open animosity. At least an attitude that all groups should have representation and access to the system. But recently an attitude of "poc only" has spread quite a bit - and the distinction often is based on ancestry. It's okay to "pass" as white if you can "identify" as something else. I don't recognize Luther's observation of things becoming more and more inclusive - I do recognize what he refers to, but I recognize it from my childhood in the 1990s. Forget the endless resentment of whites, the continuous cartoonish hatred of people from the Middle East had yet to really rev up, either. There are wild differences in the status of various "poc" groups throughout the West and the entire world, too, but this of course is a taboo subject.

Ethnic conflict is indeed being ramped up all over the world for divide and conquer purposes. The Ukrainian war comes to mind without a doubt! The propaganda posted on this board about the conflict is funny. My understanding is that the supposedly "far more reactionary" Russia bans hate speech while the Ukranian Right Sektor party in power among a coalition is practically openly national socialist like Golden Dawn in Greece.

Different groups should reconcile their differences peaceably to the greatest extent possible. But it's easy for them to get angry with each other - rigidly universalist forms of political or religious ideologies can be very homogenizing. Definitely militant Islamism as described by AliceTheKurious and strong forms of Western liberalism qualify here, not to mention the CCP in China and other examples around the world. If this is to be written off as simply realpolitik, how can you really claim to be against racism? Homogenous "whites" were created in North America by imperialism, after all. Different groups have maintained their identity to varying degrees and it is easy for resentment to bubble up when some groups get to exploit their strong group identity and others are banned from doing so to any political effect. Isn't this what people were getting at when they talked about "white privilege" in the first place? So, not "just another colour in the box" but not the only privileged imperialistic group in history by any stretch of the imagination. And yes this is and historically was a very real thing - there were very explicit white supremacist policies in effect in much of the West before World War II. I think these issues are what most of the contention is about - not DNA. As the conflicts escalate they have an ugly way of making it about DNA

Many groups do have strong legitimate grievances, though. Indigenous people in North America and elsewhere definitely do (Canada's soft apartheid laws for natives, still on the books, are just one of many issues for native people here), as does all of Africa - to state some extreme cases

Maybe all of the above reads as idiotically obvious, but apparently there's some need to gloss over it till it's unrecognizable
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Re: Segregation: A good idea making a comeback

Postby FourthBase » Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:36 am

I'm confused now. This thread is sarcastic? Your actual thrust was that resegregation is horrific? But so then what is with all your revolutionary race war cheerleading? Also sarcastic? Be plain: Are you in favor of segregation or not, and are you looking forward to a race war or not?

Non-white-only spaces are absolutely no better than white-only spaces. The entire idea of not-being-a-racist is supposed to be that race is and always ought to be a fundamentally illusory and inconsequential thing. Forcing people to perpetuate the "reality" of race as a pervasive, inescapable social construct is no less fundamentally racist for being misnamed "justice" or "identity".

Progressives have regressed so far up their own ideological asses that they've rapidly become the West's premier racists, and the worst part is that they are the ones most epistemically closed to the idea that they've become their own worst enemy, blindly anointing themselves as the least blinded in a world they righteously pronounce hopelessly blinded. Ironies upon ironies upon ironies.
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Re: Segregation: A good idea making a comeback

Postby tapitsbo » Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:57 am

Ah, but your sentiment in your second paragraph apparently puts you on the far right for advocating colour blindness. I think there was *something* to this idea to begin with - colour blindess can cloak racism just as much as acknowledging differences can put it right out in the open.

But a lot of Western "anti-racists" are going to lump FourthBase in with Nazis for what he just wrote. With a slope this slippery, no wonder people like General Patton are just saying "fuck it" and radicalizing - but will that really end well for anyone, anytime soon?
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Re: Segregation: A good idea making a comeback

Postby Harvey » Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:43 am

justdrew » Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:08 am wrote:harvey, FFS. :wallhead:

"Hydrogen Matters"

do you interpret that statement to suggest I think that the other elements are unimportant?


I'm always fascinated by how people interpret a naive question.
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Re: Segregation: A good idea making a comeback

Postby Harvey » Thu Oct 15, 2015 4:44 am

Searcher08 » Thu Oct 15, 2015 4:10 am wrote:She described her amazement at finding that many of the people she considered racist were actually just assholes.


Quite.
And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
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Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


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Re: Segregation: A good idea making a comeback

Postby Twyla LaSarc » Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:22 pm

I've said a bit about my skinhead sister on this board, and I will mention her again.

She'd have thought segregation a great idea. As she would put it, we're happy with our own kind, they're happier with their own kind, so we shouldn't have to ineract with each other.

Thanks for posting a neo nazi trope my fucking sister would hug you for, guys. I hope yall are trolling.

As for the yoga class, just wait until they get a load of racism and color prejudice among non-whites. In some places it makes a difference whether you're spaniard or indio. Or japanese and Ainu, Brahmins and untouchables, or whatever. I once had an interesting conversation with my head of department at UW. A black woman, she had visited africa and talked about how skin tone is a divider even there with preference going to lighter tones. No, Virginia, just because the US is fucked up on white/black relations doesn't mean the rest of the world is a bunch of enlightened arhats on race. Best to get on with making things as inclusive as possible for everyone.
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Re: Segregation: A good idea making a comeback

Postby American Dream » Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:39 pm

Racism is a structure because racial and ethnic dominance exists in and is reproduced by the system through formulation and application of rules, laws and regulations and through access to and allocation of resources. … Racism is a process because structures and ideologies do not exist outside the everyday practices through which they are created and confirmed.

— Philomena Essed, Understanding Everyday Racism: An Interdisciplinary Theory.
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Re: Segregation: A good idea making a comeback

Postby seemslikeadream » Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:53 pm

American Dream » Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:39 pm wrote:
Racism is a structure because racial and ethnic dominance exists in and is reproduced by the system through formulation and application of rules, laws and regulations and through access to and allocation of resources. … Racism is a process because structures and ideologies do not exist outside the everyday practices through which they are created and confirmed.

— Philomena Essed, Understanding Everyday Racism: An Interdisciplinary Theory.


AND NO ONE... NO NATIONALITY....NO ETHNICITY is immune from being a racist ....just remember that and remind your friend of that fact too
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Re: Segregation: A good idea making a comeback

Postby tapitsbo » Thu Oct 15, 2015 2:17 pm

I'm sure there are lots of clean cut cases of "racial or ethnic dominance" we could all agree on.

What is interesting to me is whether polities that differ from what we usually think of as a race or ethnicity take on characteristics of one.

Are Syrians "racist" for opposing the international coalition of mercenaries that make up ISIS?

A much less extreme example: does the large demographic of mixed race people Nordic mentioned in LA make up the equivalent of an ethnic group with its own interests?

seemslikeadream and Twyla LaSarc, many progressives at least around where I live would call you both "racist" for calling for inclusion for all and saying any group can be racist. I don't agree with this, but surely you're aware of it? Ignoring it won't make it go away.

In Sweden the idea of an indigenous Swedish ethnic group is considered racist by the government. If I understand correctly, in Russia the idea of a "Russian" ethnic group is not considered racist per se by the government, but the idea of it gaining explicit political representation is.

This is an obvious contrast with countries like Israel or Hungary.

In North America governments forcibly assimilated people of many ethnicities into "races" like white, black, hispanic, etc. Now these identities are considered "racist" in some contexts but not in others.

I don't disagree with a quote like the one American Dream pasted just now. But the interpretation of such ideas is usually politicized in ways that are worth thinking about.
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