Which gender are you?

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Which gender are you?

Female
8
14%
Male
37
66%
Alchemical Androgyne
5
9%
None of your business
3
5%
It's complicated
1
2%
Other
2
4%
 
Total votes : 56

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby slomo » Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:29 am

Project Willow » 20 Nov 2015 20:23 wrote:Oh, FFS, can we at least agree on one thing, and that is there is a war between the sexes over mate selection, and that this war exists within practically every species on this planet and is central to survival? Or am I am in thrawl to "scientism", heaven forbid. The war over which sex exercises the greater control in mate selection lies at the heart of the age old war between the sexes in human societies. Humans sit about half way along a scale between pair bonded and tournament species, and we are constantly battling. I am a feminist because I believe it is for the greater good of this species that women exercise greater control in mate selection, and in a number of other areas for that matter, considering that patriarchal driven systems are currently wiping out our ecology. There it is, have at it.

You don't think that the "patriarchal driven systems" that are wiping out our ecology are not at least in part driven by competition between males to mate with females who overwhelmingly prefer males that can demonstrate the ability to garner the largest share of resources? I'm sorry, but the female side of the equation is equally to blame in the rapacious behavior of the human animal.

I'll agree with you on one point, battle-of-the-sexes is encoded in our DNA. Google "imprinting parental conflict theory".
User avatar
slomo
 
Posts: 1781
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:42 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby slomo » Sat Nov 21, 2015 12:38 am

Just to add some evidence basis for the "battle-of-the-sexes" discussion:

http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/race- ... 2009-2014/
http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/20 ... y-and-age/
http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your- ... -you-back/
http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/the-b ... ne-dating/

I don't pretend that there are some study design problems in these analyses, but they are at least an attempt at collecting unbiased data. I encourage folks to read more of the OkCupid analyses. What you'll find is that women do in fact exert pressure on the dating marketplace, and this pressure does in fact have an influence on male behavior. Spoiler: there is a reason that men aren't becoming warm fluffy bunnies.
User avatar
slomo
 
Posts: 1781
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:42 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby Agent Orange Cooper » Sat Nov 21, 2015 1:13 am

Project Willow » Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:59 pm wrote:
Luther Blissett » 20 Nov 2015 08:20 wrote:I would advise anyone who is against transgender people to talk to some of them.

We cannot compare Rachel Dolezal to Chelsea Manning. Transracialism and other deceptions are exploitative imposterism while transgenderism is an identity that permanently marks one as a non-binary person forever at risk of violence and persecution. This isn't a Romany Rye. You cannot cross the DNA floor, as Katharine Quarmby says.

I am fully anti-transhumanist but supportive of rights for trans people. I don't see or understand the connection.


There's a big difference between supporting human rights for people dealing with sexual dysphoria, autogynephilia, or gender non-conforming behavior, and being critical of mainstream trans politics and ideology.

In mainstream trans politics there is most definitely an exploitative deception at play that is a one to one correlative to Dolezar, and it is currently robbing women of a number of hard fought rights, including the right to maintain sex segregated safe spaces, and to compete on physiologically equal playing fields (title IX), just to mention two. Trans women are not content to be perceived as trans women, but wish to hold every right that women born women have, and to be categorized as women without qualification. This is a fundamental erasure of reality, and of the struggles that women face simply as a result of their anatomy. To ignore this is to position the needs of one perceived oppressed group above the needs of another. This should be viewed as the antithesis to liberalism. Alas, because the trans community is largely made up of male socialized male humans, their desires and wishes will prevail, and so the reality of the experience of women is being systematically erased.

There are two main forces driving this trend, one is the capitalist, big pharma solution to any problem, take a pill, feel better, don't examine any problem in any way that might interfere with profit making, and misogyny, pure and simple. If you can't win, join 'em. If men are better at being "women" through the trans experience (of course this is defined solely through referencing patriarchal sex roles), well then, feminism is completely neutralized.

I do not lack compassion for people who experience dysphoria, I am simply unwilling to give up my own human rights in deference to theirs.


Beautifully put.
User avatar
Agent Orange Cooper
 
Posts: 616
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:44 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby tapitsbo » Sat Nov 21, 2015 1:20 am

How do you and Project Willow feel about trans men, though? The ever-popular "non-binary folks", etc.

I'm honestly curious.

I don't feel at home with the current progressive consensus or mra/terf ideas, personally. I don't "distrust" trans women on principle. I do distrust those who claim to advocate for autonomy and liberation while policing other people who waver from the new normal - WHATEVER shape that may take
tapitsbo
 
Posts: 1824
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:58 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby slomo » Sat Nov 21, 2015 1:24 am

I don't distrust individual transgenders. As I mentioned, some of them are sociopaths, some (likely most) are just regular people trying to make sense of the world in which they find themselves.

I do distrust the way the transgender narrative is being forced upon us in public discourse.
User avatar
slomo
 
Posts: 1781
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:42 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby Agent Orange Cooper » Sat Nov 21, 2015 1:31 am

I honestly think 'transmen' are a close to a different subject altogether, motivated by a completely different set of social constraints (being women) and an also-differing set of chemical reactions.

If by 'non-binary' you mean the 'genderqueer' tumblr crowd that's made up mostly of teenagers whose identities are completely wrapped up in their social media profiles, among whom 'otherkin' and Adult Babies and trans-amputees and the rest of it are included... I don't really have an opinion. If you mean intersex people, that's a completely different subject (though they are also antagonized by many trans-activists).
User avatar
Agent Orange Cooper
 
Posts: 616
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:44 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby slomo » Sat Nov 21, 2015 1:34 am

I'll add that the extremely vocal "non-binary" folks I've run across are uniformly, to the very last man/woman, huge attention-seekers, probably all of them very "Axis II".

Why else proclaim, for the whole world to hear, how "non-binary" you are?

I mean, it's not like I'm the shining example of red-blooded-American-macho-masculinity, but you don't see me blathering on about my non-binary gender status. In spite of having a handful of traits that might be described as feminine (e.g. a general tendency to avoid routine domestic construction tasks, all of which fall to my spouse, who, "masculine" though he seems, has a career that is considered pretty "gay"), I still identify as wholly and fully male. As does my spouse.
User avatar
slomo
 
Posts: 1781
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:42 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby identity » Sat Nov 21, 2015 1:41 am

Transgender child makes Vancouver Magazine's 50 most powerful list
BY DANA GEE, THE PROVINCE NOVEMBER 17, 2015

Province reporter Dana Gee speaks with Tru Wilson, a 12-year-old trans girl, who Vancouver Magazine named on of the city's top influencers.

VANCOUVER — Whenever a list of powerful Vancouverites is pulled together, you can guarantee a lot of the spots will be filled with suits.

Developer guys in suits, real-estate guys in suits, sports-team-owning guys in suits, politicians in suits and restaurant guys in suits. There are women in suits, too, but for the most part guys in suits.

But this year’s Vancouver Magazine Power 50 list, while still loving a lot of guys in suits, has branched out with its pick of a 12-year-old transgender girl named Tru Wilson in spot No. 12.

Wilson was in the news, although as Tracey Wilson, a year ago when a human-rights complaint was filed on her behalf against Sacred Heart School and Catholic Independent Schools of the Vancouver Archdioceses when her school declined to treat her as a girl.

The complaint was settled through mediation in the B.C. Human Rights Tribunal and resulted in local Catholic schools changing their policies to allow for students to have their gender identity accommodated.

“It just goes to show a little voice can go a long way,” said Wilson.

Wilson feels it’s important to keep talking about being transgender — to stand up and out as a kid who is dealing with a big issue.

“I love talking about me being trans,” said Wilson, who now attends Ladner Elementary with her two younger siblings. “I feel like it is an interesting subject to talk about and I feel I want my friends to know all of me, not just half of me. I want it to be more of a regular thing than just kind of a, ‘Wow, you’re trans,’ thing.”

For Tru’s mom, Michelle Wilson, having her daughter singled out on a most-powerful list was exciting, shocking and thought-provoking.

“Honestly, it left me feeling like maybe we should be doing more to warrant being on a list like this. But also I think it says a lot about our community and a lot about just the age that we are in and how this issue has come to the forefront — and how important it is to stand up and do something no matter how big or small you are,” Michelle said.

As for the future, Wilson is a kid and plans on doing kid things, but she also has plans to reach out to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and talk about gender rights.

“Gender should be in the (Canadian Human Rights Act) because right now at this very moment someone could get fired because they are transgender,” Wilson said. “Gay is in there and I appreciate that. But gender rights are not, and that’s kind of a fear because what if I get a job I really love and I get a new boss and he’s like, ‘Oh, you’re transgender, get out.’ That would be legal and I can’t do anything about it.”

For now.

http://vanmag.com/best-of-the-city/20-tru-wilson/

I remember when I was in kindergarten, the teacher got a new dollhouse,” says Tru Wilson, a bright-eyed 12-year-old with shiny braces on her front teeth. “I started playing with the dolls, and one of my guy friends was like, ‘What are you doing?’ I said, ‘Playing with the dollies.’ He’s like, ‘But that’s not what boys do.’ And I’m thinking, yeah, but I’m not a boy.”

“At first we thought Trey was gay,” says Michelle Wilson, a graphic artist. She and her husband, Garfield, an actor and personal trainer, share their Ladner home with their three children and a dog. Having grown up in a Jamaican household in Edmonton, Garfield—macho and muscular—at first had trouble accepting that his son was not a little version of himself. Michelle was caught between not wanting her child to be bullied, and wanting her to be able to live as her true self.

One day Trey told his teacher at Sacred Heart elementary in Delta that he was “a girly-boy.” The vice-principal called Michelle and said, “We’re a little concerned with the language your son is using. You might want to tone that stuff down.”

Instead, understanding that Trey had gender dysphoria, the Wilsons began lobbying the school to let her attend as
a girl. The school firmly refused. Garfield was polite and rational in the discussions, thinking that would yield the best results. Michelle got quietly furious that he was treating school officials with the respect and consideration they were failing to show their child. “There was a lot of stress,” says Garfield. “It put our marriage in a rocky place.”

“They kept asking for supporting material from doctors,” says Tru. “When we gave it to them, they’d ask for an opinion from a doctor they chose.” Then they wanted a third opinion. “Then they played the religion card,” says Garfield. Recognizing a transgender child, they said, would go against Catholic teachings. Tru was living as a girl at home, at her dance class, on her basketball team. “Then I had to go to school and pretend to be a boy.”

“We wanted her to be able to wear the girl’s uniform and they just shut us right down,” says Michelle. “I remember sitting in the parking lot after one meeting, bawling my eyes out, thinking, so this is what it’s going to be like.”

Tru transferred to a public school, and the Wilsons filed a human rights complaint. “We wanted a policy in place so that other kids wouldn’t have to go through what we did,” says Michelle. The Catholic School Board was finally pressured into developing such a policy; the Vancouver School Board was already working on one. Meanwhile, an interview on Global TV, which the family posted on Facebook, became a way to let everyone hear their story in a safe way. “We had no idea what the reaction would be,” says Michelle. “Would people shun us? Which friends would be left standing? Would we have to move?”

On the contrary. They were amazed by how open and supportive friends, family, and even strangers were. “It was overwhelming,” says Michelle. “Even Garfield’s parents, who are pretty traditional, said, ‘We don’t understand it, but we love you and support you.’” A year later, as the Vanouver Parks Board was developing a transgender policy, they asked Tru to be a poster child. A photo of Tru and her parents now appears on Parks & Recreation posters around in the city.

It wasn’t until the whole family was benefitting from therapy that they began taking comfort in the realization that normalcy and conformity don’t move the world forward. “If you look back,” says Garfield, “you see that people who make a real difference usually go through hardships along the way.”

Gender identity is the social-justice issue of our time, brought into focus, and media prominence, by the likes of Chelsea Manning, Laverne Cox on Orange is the New Black, Jazz Jennings on the reality show I Am Jazz, Caitlyn Jenner on the cover of Vanity Fair—and by a child at a Catholic School in Delta who knew she belonged in a girl’s uniform.

“I didn’t expect to be on posters and people recognizing me and making a difference for other kids,” says Tru. “I just wanted to be me.”
We should never forget Galileo being put before the Inquisition.
It would be even worse if we allowed scientific orthodoxy to become the Inquisition.

Richard Smith, Editor in Chief of the British Medical Journal 1991-2004,
in a published letter to Nature
identity
 
Posts: 707
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:00 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby Agent Orange Cooper » Sat Nov 21, 2015 1:48 am

Typical story. A boy can't play with dolls because only girls play with dolls, so he must be a girl. He's not just a boy who likes to play with dolls. How is that not intensely regressive and wickedly oppressive? How does it not constitute child abuse?
User avatar
Agent Orange Cooper
 
Posts: 616
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:44 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby tapitsbo » Sat Nov 21, 2015 1:52 am

^^Now that I agree with, although I can't say I completely agree with everything you and slomo are saying, just as I don't think this can be unpacked as simply as Joao would have us do it.

Funny how your example chimes/rhymes with the Swedish toy catalogs that have to show a "flipped" version of old gender roles with only boys playing with dolls, and so on.

I'm curious about the "mate selection" stuff upthread since a lot of people don't, uh, mate. Is this supposed to be like a cull of the unmateable? Not being entirely serious but this is always what the evo-psych stuff starts to sound like.
Last edited by tapitsbo on Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:01 am, edited 4 times in total.
tapitsbo
 
Posts: 1824
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:58 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby slomo » Sat Nov 21, 2015 1:53 am

Agent Orange Cooper » 20 Nov 2015 21:48 wrote:Typical story. A boy can't play with dolls because only girls play with dolls, so he must be a girl. He's not just a boy who likes to play with dolls. How is that not intensely regressive and wickedly oppressive? How does it not constitute child abuse?

Not to mention that just about every gay boy plays with dolls at least once or twice when he's a kid. Including probably the incredibly hot football/soccer player whose picture was posted on page 4 of this thread (the first one with the red shirt, what can I say, I like 'em bald).
User avatar
slomo
 
Posts: 1781
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:42 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby identity » Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:17 am

Tru was living as a girl at home, at her dance class, on her basketball team. “Then I had to go to school and pretend to be a boy.”


Also interesting to consider––in light of some of the discussion in this thread––if Tru has ever had to pretend to be either a white or a black girl.

http://vanmag.com/best-of-the-city/20-tru-wilson/
We should never forget Galileo being put before the Inquisition.
It would be even worse if we allowed scientific orthodoxy to become the Inquisition.

Richard Smith, Editor in Chief of the British Medical Journal 1991-2004,
in a published letter to Nature
identity
 
Posts: 707
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:00 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby Joao » Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:07 am

@guruilla: I said man/woman, you said male/female. I think that subtle difference created a misunderstanding.

@82_28: No disrespect back there.

@coffin dodger: My first hater!

And PS fuck the battle of sexes. Sure there's plenty of bad shit to go around but the real down deep cosmic truth is they love each other and can't get enough of each other.

Is it patriarchal to say this thread is orgiastic? Everybody fuck.
Joao
 
Posts: 522
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:37 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby tapitsbo » Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:32 am

^^^Non-consensual kumbaya

10/10 (I'm adding points for your humouring of this thread)
tapitsbo
 
Posts: 1824
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:58 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby yathrib » Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:26 am

The non binary/gender queer thing... Special Snowflake ism taken to it's ultimate extreme. To my mind, these attention seekers make a mockery of any legitimate pointhe that might be made by the Trans movement. Since most of them are in their teens and t wenties, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. I made some ill advised fashion choices that made for embarrassing yearbook photos. Who hasn't?

The Tru Wilson story makes my blood boil. Can anyone say Munchhausen by proxy? Because this child likes to play with dolls, he/she has the Magical Indwelling Female Gender Essence. Real progressive, folks.
Last edited by yathrib on Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst that justice prevail.

If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you.
yathrib
 
Posts: 1880
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 11:44 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 170 guests