Which gender are you?

[JackRiddler]

Oh absolutely.

It's also to the discredit of entirely legit concerns that they mix in with their paranoia and disgust at trans people and their defensiveness about "traditional" gender roles (all of which are actually historical and had traceable origins). For example, the idea of drugs to prevent puberty on the basis of a trans diagnosis of young children is very sick!

Meanwhile, can you haters of fictive Illuminati please, please, PLEASE stop abusing Orwell at every turn? His general statement about telling the truth being a revolutionary act wasn't meant to be stretched to fit every agenda.

[tapitsbo]

Uh oh, I just realized I don't have a folder of "bait pictures" on my hard drive.

I'll play though. I am not really disgusted by trans people. I have met adults who brag about how they'd like to force a transition on their child though. I would say que sera sera, but the thing is there might be ugly consequences similar to the cases Agent Orange Cooper was referencing.

[American Dream]

I am not really disgusted by trans people. I have met adults who brag about how they'd like to force a transition on their child though. I would say que sera sera, but the thing is there might be ugly consequences similar to the cases Agent Orange Cooper was referencing.

Just as ignorant- and unverifiable/dubious- as tapitsbo's previous tales:

I live in a city where a supposed "anarchist" pamphleted my house with weird publications from "kersplebedeb". This guy was a son of rich factory owners and was always preaching "revolutionary violence". He tried to intimidate my girlfriend and myself into giving him food for free when he was squatting at my house. He tried infiltrating a First Nations warrior society and he got kicked out since he's white. He openly admitted to me that he'd received military training from an ex-IDF colonel and I looked through his personal belongings and they were full of boks on fascist spirituality, etc. contrary to the extreme leftism he preached. He also used to put on disguises and stalk well-known activist women from my school. His rhetoric was extremely strange and unlike anyone else I've really met - definitely different from your typical social justice or anarchist types.

Oh yeah he was also "homeless" but could somehow afford a rich lawyer.

This is just an anecdote but relevant here I think.

[tapitsbo]

I'm glad you remembered that one; I'm not interested in "verifying" it for you but I promise I'm not capable of making it up, either : )

The fellow in the story was like an odd hybrid of you and the "third position" types you like to post articles about.

He actually handed me a copy of "Drawing Lines Against Racism And Facism" once.

I'm actually a fan of your older contributions to this board from a couple years ago, American Dream, I find them intelligent and enlightening, I learned quite a bit from them.

[American Dream]

I'm not interested in "verifying" it for you.

I don't doubt you for a second on that.

[guruilla]

Interesting to observe how the level of hate is being upped every step of the way by the anti-haters. Or perhaps that's my own bias-blinkers.

What you resist....

This thread does seem to demonstrate that Orwell's thought police are fully operational at a nano-level, and that anything that is not doublethink is now HATE CRIME.

In times of liminality, binary opposition increases because identity becomes unstable along with the institutions and values, and the need for an Other to define oneself by & against becomes (or feels like) a matter of psychic survival.

We've all been socially implanted/imprinted with these triggers, and evidently they are being activated. One thing feels strangely true, that I could have a much calmer, more compassionate and meaningful conversation with one of the transgender people I've known, than with their supposed defenders, at least as represented at this thread.

What is that?

[slomo]

For those of you who insist on creating a "safe space" for queers on this board, thanks but no thanks. Oh yeah, I forgot, I'm not queer anymore because I'm "cis-gendered". Whatever.

Here's the deal about gender fluidity: it directly contradicts the position of cis-gendered homosexuals, which is that gender and sexual orientation are relatively hard-coded in the brain. To argue that gender is completely tabula rasa, and/or that everyone should find TGs sexually attractive in the way they wish to be seen as sexually attractive (and yes that is a real position that many vocal TGs present, at least online) is to argue that my sexual orientation and gender identity are mutable, and therefore should change to fit whoever's political agenda. [Short aside: does anybody not find it strange that there are so many "lesbian" MtFs? More than half of MtFs I've met are "lesbians". I'm sure RadFems have something to say about that.] Frankly, most gender theories that arise out of humanities lack any evidence basis whatsoever, and directly contradict scientific evidence, flawed though it might be.

I get that the TG issue is complex and multi-layered, that TGs suffer discrimination, and that they deserve to be given space to make the choices they feel they need to make to be happy. Fine. But there is definitely a cultural phenomenon, whether it arose organically or is the result of a clandestine conspiracy, of pushing the issue of gender in a polarizing direction. [Short aside #2: when did Rigorous Intuition, of all places, become hostile to theories of conspiracy? Get over yourself already.]

[KUAN]

.

Now just calm down youse gays and watch a great doco:

[slomo]

I forget how many boundaries Freddie pushed. He was a good guy, a product of his time (the 70s).

Y'know, I should probably change my avatar. 5 years ago it may have seemed necessary to remind the board that I'm gay. Today? I don't care.

[slomo]

Here's an interesting thing, I don't know if it's relevant to this discussion or not. I came out when I was 16. So did my spouse. We're both on either side of 50 now. Both of us find the whole topic of sexual orientation kind of boring. We both kind of dislike the gay social networks in our city, and our best friends are straight. Both of us get more mileage out of identifying as men first, and homosexual second (or tenth).

Gender is an important topic in the context of its effects on social cohesion, at the nuclear family level and larger. But as a psychological issue at the sub-individual level, I don't know... Seems like a black hole to me.

[Agent Orange Cooper]

Here's the deal about gender fluidity: it directly contradicts the position of cis-gendered homosexuals, which is that gender and sexual orientation are relatively hard-coded in the brain. To argue that gender is completely tabula rasa, and/or that everyone should find TGs sexually attractive in the way they wish to be seen as sexually attractive (and yes that is a real position that many vocal TGs present, at least online) is to argue that my sexual orientation and gender identity are mutable, and therefore should change to fit whoever's political agenda.

This doesn't just apply to homosexuals, it applies to everyone!

Case in point: http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/tran ... irror_main

[Short aside: does anybody not find it strange that there are so many "lesbian" MtFs? More than half of MtFs I've met are "lesbians". I'm sure RadFems have something to say about that.] Frankly, most gender theories that arise out of humanities lack any evidence basis whatsoever, and directly contradict scientific evidence, flawed though it might be.

Yes, quite 'strange.' And then, when real lesbians don't want to date a MtF (because they aren't attracted to men or male anatomy), they are labeled transphobic because they don't want to suck 'ladydick.' Same old story: men telling women they have to fuck them, or else. They call it the Cotton Ceiling but it sounds more like Rape Culture to me.

[slomo]

This doesn't just apply to homosexuals, it applies to everyone!

Well of course! But I've been taught to limit my rants to talking only about my own experience, lest I be accused of mansplaining.

From the article:

"Straight guys just can't get over you having the male parts.

You don't say! Who could ever have predicted that!? Why, it's almost like straight men don't want to suck dick!

And then, when real lesbians don't want to date a MtF (because they aren't attracted to men or male anatomy), they are labeled transphobic because they don't want to suck 'ladydick.'

You don't say! Why, it's almost like ... oh, never mind.

There is an objective reality out there, and it is that men and women, gay and straight, have defined sexual preferences that are not going to change to suit your political agenda or wishful thinking, whether you are male or female, gay or straight, cis or trans. Don't cry because the straight guy you're crushing on doesn't want your lady-stick.

[American Dream]

Who cares???

Please read: guidelines for posting on the RI board
Postby Jeff » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:38 am

Welcome to the RI board.

While Rigorous Intuition welcomes a range of informed perspectives, it is not intended to be a forum for the re-fighting of elemental human values. It should be assumed that this is a place where the dignity and rights of all people are respected. Members who challenge these rights may be regarded as disruptive, and members who habitually challenge them will be banned.

This is an anti-fascist board. Propagation of fascist, neo-Nazi and "white pride" causes, including sympathetically linking to sites which advocate such, will not be permitted. This includes revisionist histories of the Holocaust.

This is an anti-sexist board. We correctly assume that women, as a group, have been and continue to be the object of oppression based upon their gender. It is expected that members will respect the rights of women to justice and equality in all spheres of life, and to a positive experience of RI. Contending that feminism is a "New World Order plot" will not be permitted.

Posts advocating violence, or espousing hatred of a people based upon race, religion, gender or sexuality, are not permitted.

On edit: Tried to bring this post back to original, after an unfortunate error...

[slomo]

Who cares???

Please read: guidelines for posting on the RI board
Postby Jeff » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:38 am

Welcome to the RI board.

While Rigorous Intuition welcomes a range of informed perspectives, it is not intended to be a forum for the re-fighting of elemental human values. It should be assumed that this is a place where the dignity and rights of all people are respected. Members who challenge these rights may be regarded as disruptive, and members who habitually challenge them will be banned.

This is an anti-fascist board. Propagation of fascist, neo-Nazi and "white pride" causes, including sympathetically linking to sites which advocate such, will not be permitted. This includes revisionist histories of the Holocaust.

This is an anti-sexist board. We correctly assume that women, as a group, have been and continue to be the object of oppression based upon their gender. It is expected that members will respect the rights of women to justice and equality in all spheres of life, and to a positive experience of RI. Contending that feminism is a "New World Order plot" will not be permitted.

Posts advocating violence, or espousing hatred of a people based upon race, religion, gender or sexuality, are not permitted.

FFS, ban me already.

Honestly, if pointing out the obvious reality that TGs are going to face an uphill battle in the sexual marketplace for entirely predictable reasons is considered "hatred", and if the eternally-non-falsifiable Patriarchy theory is such a sacred cow here that its claims can never, ever be questioned, then this board will have finally and completely jumped the shark.

[mentalgongfu2]

Oh look, AD still knows how to copy and paste.

That timely contribution will certainly help in my understanding of gender roles and the trans perspective, much more so than individuals sharing their own thoughts and experiences.

But seriously, I hesitated to even post in this thread oh so many pages ago, but it has been interesting to see where it goes. I'd rather not see it shut down just because it's treading on what some consider dangerous territory.