Which gender are you?

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Which gender are you?

Female
8
14%
Male
37
66%
Alchemical Androgyne
5
9%
None of your business
3
5%
It's complicated
1
2%
Other
2
4%
 
Total votes : 56

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby slomo » Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:57 pm

brainpanhandler » 23 Nov 2015 09:26 wrote:
mentalgongfu2 » Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:49 am wrote: I'd rather not see it shut down just because it's treading on what some consider dangerous territory.


Who wants to shut it down?

I don't understand all this talk of wanting to limit people's ability to voice their opinions on the subjects being discussed in this thread. Where did/is this happening?

AD is trotting out the posting rules, which is his very subtle (not) way of saying I'm a hater and should be threatened with the ban-hammer.
User avatar
slomo
 
Posts: 1781
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:42 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby Luther Blissett » Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:59 pm

That acceptance and understanding is not what I understand the lived everyday reality of trans people to be, though.

It seems to me like the "endocrine disorder" route is real. Here's a more nuanced source that attributes multiple factors while discussing endocrine therapy. It also mentions the major psychological trauma which presents itself at puberty for transgender children (as opposed to the normal trauma we all experienced):
http://www.healio.com/endocrinology/hor ... nformation
The Rich and the Corporate remain in their hundred-year fever visions of Bolsheviks taking their stuff - JackRiddler
User avatar
Luther Blissett
 
Posts: 4991
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:31 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby brainpanhandler » Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:19 pm

backtoiam » Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:29 pm wrote:
Elvis » Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:49 pm wrote:
semper occultus » Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:53 pm wrote:
Brussels tells British mothers: get back to work

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/predictions/politics/11692661/Brussels-tells-British-mothers-get-back-to-work.html

Britain has too many stay-at-home mothers and must do more to get them into work, the European Union has said.

British women are twice as likely as those in the rest of Europe to choose not to work in order to care for their children or elderly relations, EU figures show.

The large number of mothers who work part-time or not at all is a “social challenge” that the Government must address by providing more state-funded child care, according to a report issued by the European Council.



BLEAH!! Why don't the busybodies mind their own beeswax.



The family unit, just like a nation, a gender, a religion, a tribe, a race, a color, or any construct that unifies a group of people into a cohesive unit is on the table to be obliterated. The family unit, a father, a mother, is a cancer on society according to the PTB because it stands in the way of total control of the human mind.


You have that exactly backwards. The nuclear family has served the 'ptb' well, indoctrinating generations of human beings in the patriarchal order from birth.

Sight, sound, action. Television. Never before in history has it been possible to sit people down in front a television set, put the mind in alpha stage, and program, or deprogram, the human mind into a state of reverse, as it is today. All constructs are being ripped. Period. End of story.


Traditional 'family values' are being peripherally challenged more as a result of economic realities, among other forces at work, rather than a conspiracy by the ptb to rip apart the traditional family.

For generations we got this:



If only we could go back to the good old days!
"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Jr.
User avatar
brainpanhandler
 
Posts: 5114
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:38 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby slomo » Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:21 pm

Luther Blissett » 23 Nov 2015 09:59 wrote:That acceptance and understanding is not what I understand the lived everyday reality of trans people to be, though.

It seems to me like the "endocrine disorder" route is real. Here's a more nuanced source that attributes multiple factors while discussing endocrine therapy. It also mentions the major psychological trauma which presents itself at puberty for transgender children (as opposed to the normal trauma we all experienced):
http://www.healio.com/endocrinology/hor ... nformation

I object to the idea that the endocrine system, which is a relatively simple system (compared with the CNS) based on biochemical interactions, is somehow functioning improperly in TG individuals. It's more likely that, in-utero, the brain has differentiated in a way that conflicts with the anatomical sex. This has been shown to be the case with homosexual orientation, so it seems to me that TG is the same phenomenon with a slightly different manifestation. I don't research in that area, so I won't assert any ultimate authority on the subject. Either way, hormone therapy is the preferred way of bringing the endocrine system into concordance with the CNS, simply because it would be much more invasive to physically rewire the CNS (oh how I long for the good-ol-days when gay men were given lobotomies!). I don't object to hormone therapy for TGs (acknowledging of course that I am not in any position to object or consent in other people's decisions). But every decision comes with a set of consequences, and so should be weighed against the consequences that can be predicted reasonably well. One consequence of transitioning is that your mate options will be severely curtailed. To object to that reality is to dictate others' sexual preferences, which is extremely unreasonable.
User avatar
slomo
 
Posts: 1781
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:42 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby Luther Blissett » Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:38 pm

Hasn't medicine tried a number of different therapies to treat gender dysphoria? Are there any cases in which a transgender person was successfully converted to cisgender?
The Rich and the Corporate remain in their hundred-year fever visions of Bolsheviks taking their stuff - JackRiddler
User avatar
Luther Blissett
 
Posts: 4991
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:31 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby brainpanhandler » Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:44 pm

slomo » Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:57 pm wrote:
brainpanhandler » 23 Nov 2015 09:26 wrote:
mentalgongfu2 » Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:49 am wrote: I'd rather not see it shut down just because it's treading on what some consider dangerous territory.


Who wants to shut it down?

I don't understand all this talk of wanting to limit people's ability to voice their opinions on the subjects being discussed in this thread. Where did/is this happening?

AD is trotting out the posting rules, which is his very subtle (not) way of saying I'm a hater and should be threatened with the ban-hammer.


Yah. I wish AD wouldn't do that, but he does. I haven't personally read anything in this thread that seems particularly offensive. Controversial? yes. Offensive? No. There are a few posters coming from a pretty reactionary position which they cloak in cryptic, weasely words. But they're entitled to their opinions.

I think Riddler had it about right when he wrote:

JackRiddler » Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:55 pm wrote:
American Dream » Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:12 pm wrote:
DrEvil » Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:05 pm wrote:
I think the gist of it is that LGBT activists and feminists are (useful) idiots who are being used by a 747 full of rich, evil people to destroy families and control the world.



Any fool can see that this is very much a repeated theme here.


Underlying it is just a lot of old (or prematurely old) whiteman anxiety about things that should hardly bother'em, methinks.


I think it has been a fascinating discussion and as Wrex says, remarkably civil.

And thank you for the brain food.
"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Jr.
User avatar
brainpanhandler
 
Posts: 5114
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:38 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby slomo » Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:53 pm

brainpanhandler » 23 Nov 2015 10:44 wrote:
slomo » Mon Nov 23, 2015 12:57 pm wrote:
brainpanhandler » 23 Nov 2015 09:26 wrote:
mentalgongfu2 » Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:49 am wrote: I'd rather not see it shut down just because it's treading on what some consider dangerous territory.


Who wants to shut it down?

I don't understand all this talk of wanting to limit people's ability to voice their opinions on the subjects being discussed in this thread. Where did/is this happening?

AD is trotting out the posting rules, which is his very subtle (not) way of saying I'm a hater and should be threatened with the ban-hammer.


Yah. I wish AD wouldn't do that, but he does. I haven't personally read anything in this thread that seems particularly offensive. Controversial? yes. Offensive? No. There are a few posters coming from a pretty reactionary position which they cloak in cryptic, weasely words. But they're entitled to their opinions.

I think Riddler had it about right when he wrote:

JackRiddler » Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:55 pm wrote:
American Dream » Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:12 pm wrote:
DrEvil » Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:05 pm wrote:
I think the gist of it is that LGBT activists and feminists are (useful) idiots who are being used by a 747 full of rich, evil people to destroy families and control the world.



Any fool can see that this is very much a repeated theme here.


Underlying it is just a lot of old (or prematurely old) whiteman anxiety about things that should hardly bother'em, methinks.


I think it has been a fascinating discussion and as Wrex says, remarkably civil.

And thank you for the brain food.

Re: whiteman anxiety, indeed. Honestly, I don't care that much about TGs (meaning that in my actual daily life I don't find their unique issues particularly interesting in a positive or negative way, and I evaluate any TGs I happen to encounter in my life using the same criteria with which I evaluate everybody else, i.e. whether they are congenial, reasonable, interesting, useful in my professional setting, etc.) The encounter rate is actually pretty low, owing to their relative rarity in the population. Self-entitled and whiny gay people (of the garden variety) are a much more frequent occurrence in my life, and my reaction to them is simply to scroll through their annoying FB posts (or unfollow them in extreme cases).
User avatar
slomo
 
Posts: 1781
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:42 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby slomo » Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:59 pm

Also: I think the sudden hard right turn towards white supremacy is a much more worrying problem than any particular gender issue. But that has little to do with this particular thread.
User avatar
slomo
 
Posts: 1781
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:42 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby coffin_dodger » Mon Nov 23, 2015 3:05 pm

...and don't think the birth certificate went unnoticed, Barracuda - you naughty, naughty boy :wink
User avatar
coffin_dodger
 
Posts: 2216
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:05 am
Location: UK
Blog: View Blog (14)

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby tapitsbo » Mon Nov 23, 2015 3:16 pm

Luther Blissett » Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:38 pm wrote:Hasn't medicine tried a number of different therapies to treat gender dysphoria? Are there any cases in which a transgender person was successfully converted to cisgender?


I am pretty sure it's even happened of their own free will without outside intervention. I do know that chemical therapies have been used on political dissidents to great effect.
tapitsbo
 
Posts: 1824
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:58 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby slomo » Mon Nov 23, 2015 3:38 pm


I was predisposed to disagree with this essay, but it turns out I agree with some core observations, namely that most feminist movements have ignored the issue of race and class and have focused almost entirely on the concerns of affluent white women.

However, in the spirit of courting the ban-hammer, I am going to offer an alternative explanation. It's not "because Patriarchy", it's because women as a group have historically been complicit in the enforcement of social stratification. This is especially true of elite women, who are known to demand the most arcane and baroque observances of class consciousness. I'll add to this empirical evidence provided by the likes of OKCupid that women are, statistically, quite rigid enforcers of race and class boundaries, almost never willing to "date down". If women were the wonderful egalitarian creatures that feminism tells us they are, one would expect rather the opposite of what the facts show.

Ironically, I view women as simply people, radical as that notion might seem. That leads me to the conclusion that, with respect to ethics and morality, women and men are pretty much the same, i.e. they can be found in equal proportions on both sides of the moral spectrum.
User avatar
slomo
 
Posts: 1781
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:42 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby American Dream » Mon Nov 23, 2015 3:44 pm

slomo » Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:38 pm wrote:I was predisposed to disagree with this essay, but it turns out I agree with some core observations, namely that most feminist movements have ignored the issue of race and class and have focused almost entirely on the concerns of affluent white women.

However, in the spirit of courting the ban-hammer, I am going to offer an alternative explanation. It's not "because Patriarchy", it's because women as a group have historically been complicit in the enforcement of social stratification.



I think this thread is offering us the opportunity to go beyond overly simple formulations- especially binaries- in many ways- including here.
"If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything."
-Malcolm X
American Dream
 
Posts: 19946
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby Luther Blissett » Mon Nov 23, 2015 3:54 pm

My feminist friends almost exclusively express disdain for "white feminism" and feel the need to qualify their statements constantly. I imagine that in and of itself is exhausting. Perhaps that's more to do with the fact that we are all broadly from working class backgrounds and / or are still working class. I would say that the trend, especially in the future, will be towards intersectionality.

Sort of like how "unpacking the invisible knapsack," as important as it was at the time for illustrating privilege, was not and still is not universal, showing bias and a lack of class consciousness.
The Rich and the Corporate remain in their hundred-year fever visions of Bolsheviks taking their stuff - JackRiddler
User avatar
Luther Blissett
 
Posts: 4991
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:31 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby backtoiam » Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:05 pm

wombat said

This reduced me to actual tears of LULZ, in an office, on a Monday.

Thank you.

:thumbsup

Speaking with my Moderator Hood on, I'm kind of amazed this thread has been so civil and interesting, really. You're all doing great work.


No shit this one for the books. Its sort of like watching a slow motion bus wreck that just never seems to happen. This is a bizarre circus act right here. Its freakily surreal. Aint nobody got no clothes on anymore though, we can everybodys privates.
"A mind stretched by a new idea can never return to it's original dimensions." Oliver Wendell Holmes
backtoiam
 
Posts: 2101
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:22 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Which gender are you?

Postby zangtang » Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:10 pm

I'm still trying to decide whether to bother finding out what 'assimilationist' actually means...........

as its almost certain to out me as cisheterosexist...........meh.
zangtang
 
Posts: 1247
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 2:13 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 171 guests