Redpill Right?

[slomo]

Are you broadly anti-Feminism then?

If not, what sorts of feminist organizing currently underway do you support?

Since you asked, I am broadly anti-modern-feminism.

As if it needs to be stated (but apparently it does), I am in full 100% support of men and women being treated equally under law. However, that means equal rights and equal responsibilities.

For example, it is not "misconceived equality" to argue that military conscription should apply to both sexes. Before I agree with punitive policies to close apparent wage gaps, I'd like to see rigorous statistical analysis supporting those policies, e.g. wage comparisons that correct for differences in education, experience, hours worked, and responsibilities held, and I'd like to see as much discussion about automation (and the fact that it disproportionately destroys jobs typically held by men over those typically held by women) as the wage gap (a phenomenon largely based on intentionally flawed statistical analysis, although I'll grant that it does exist in many fields but to a much smaller extent than typically claimed). I'd like to see domestic violence against men (in heterosexual relationships) taken as seriously as domestic violence against women is currently taken (and yes, the legal and law enforcement system takes domestic violence against women very seriously, despite all claims to the contrary). Finally, I am completely unmoved by the never-ending complaints of upper-middle-class white women, under the guise of third-wave feminism, regarding their eat/pray/love problems and how it's misogynist to suggest that most of these problems are the result of narcissistic obsession over the minutiae of their inner worlds.

Satisfied? Now you can go ahead and insinuate that I am one of those right-wing monsters, and thereby dismiss anything I have to say. Of course, you've already been trying as hard as you can to do exactly that: the horrors, I've actually spent time reading r/mensrights, r/theRedPill, r/KotakuInAction, and other such sites. That must mean I'm one of your fascist bogeymen. Well, I've just made your job easier.

The thing is, your tendencies, at least those you display on this board, are far more fascist than mine. For one thing, you display no capacity for compassion, you can't bring yourself to listen to people you consider your enemy, not even once. I do that regularly, to make sure I'm not going down some dark reality tunnel. I even read, and genuinely consider, some of the stuff you post. It may surprise you that the vast majority of right-wingers are not monsters, they're people who have real problems and concerns. Even r/theRedPill, whose positions are typically very ugly, is largely made up of men who are very wounded, their suffering is real even if their attempts to alleviate it are misguided and self-defeating (and yes, potentially harmful). I'll even grant that the white nationalists, whose positions I deeply disagree with, who even frighten me (a mixed-race homosexual), espouse beliefs that have a kernel of truth buried underneath all that craziness: namely, that nobody in the mainstream political arena is currently voicing the interests and concerns of working class white men. (And, yes, working class white men still enjoy privilege over working class persons of color, but that isn't saying much, and the current "PC" climate does nothing more than polarize the discourse, driving a wedge between the groups that make up the lowest rungs of the class ladder.)

So you tell me, which is going to be a more effective way of healing the divides that separate us all? Your passive-aggressive authoritarian tactics (oh please moderators save me from the bad fascist!)? Or my exhortations to hear the positions of all stakeholders?

Honestly, I don't care if you succeed in persuading WR or whoever to ban me, I'll just go somewhere else. The main person you're harming is yourself. By refusing to have compassion for your stated enemies, you will always be cut off from a part of yourself, and you will always be blind to the plank in your own eye.

[Iamwhomiam]

I'll even grant that the white nationalists, whose positions I deeply disagree with, who even frighten me (a mixed-race homosexual), espouse beliefs that have a kernel of truth buried underneath all that craziness: namely, that nobody in the mainstream political arena is currently voicing the interests and concerns of working class white men.

Eh? Ever hear of the Republican Party?

"Before I agree with punitive policies to close apparent wage gaps, I'd like to see rigorous statistical analysis supporting those policies..."

So, it's ok to discriminate against women if you feel it's financially punitive not to? How very kind you are, slomo. Although I must say, it is a most peculiar form of equality you preach.

[justdrew]

I'll even grant that the white nationalists, whose positions I deeply disagree with, who even frighten me (a mixed-race homosexual), espouse beliefs that have a kernel of truth buried underneath all that craziness: namely, that nobody in the mainstream political arena is currently voicing the interests and concerns of working class white men.

Eh? Ever hear of the Republican Party?

"Before I agree with punitive policies to close apparent wage gaps, I'd like to see rigorous statistical analysis supporting those policies..."

So, it's ok to discriminate against women if you feel it's financially punitive not to? How very kind you are, slomo. Although I must say, it is a most peculiar form of equality you preach.

the gop is not "voicing the interests and concerns of working class white men" - it's manipulating them, at times, with shark bait bullshit, and taking them for granted the rest of the time, as they cater to the interests of those exemplified by the koch bros.

Actually though, there is one voice addressing their actual concerns, and that is Bernie Sanders, who has more traction in that demographic segment than most "on the right" would like to admit.

[Wombaticus Rex]

Eh? Ever hear of the Republican Party?

Equally sarcastically: Ever hear of Donald Trump?

Working class is the key distinction here. I see this reflex a lot in my personal life, since I have family and friends on the activist fringes of so many "sides" of our kayfabe culture...but here's the jig: Twelve out of twelve months, leftist - and especially "liberal" Democrat - discourse will recycle the Lumpenproleteriat False Consciousness cop-out ... that working class white people vote Republican "against their own self-interest."

It's either true or it is not.

Either the GOP is the party of crazy, reactionary poor white people, or it's actually a sick, century-old psy-op whereby smart, cynical wealthy elites play reactionary poor white people like a motherfucking muppet, for fun and profit.

You know, like the DNC.

[Wombaticus Rex]

Actually though, there is one voice addressing their actual concerns, and that is Bernie Sanders, who has more traction in that demographic segment than most "on the right" would like to admit.

That is a non-trivial point. The support for Sanders here is fucking remarkable, really confounds basic political narrative stereotypes. Seventh generation gun-owning church-going farm-running Republicans love Bernie. Because that motherfucker delivered results for his constituents. His support -- real, actual support -- for the veteran community is way beyond photo ops. He goes to the mat for Our Troops, line item for line item, more than anyone in Congress. A lot of that is just clout, of course, there's a lot of young and old veterans in those halls who have both the balls and brains to catch up. Once they're 120 like Bernie is.

Social signaling confounds so much of our conversation, because the wrong things become shorthand for the bad things. It's cool to shit on hipsters, but farmers markets and artisan, organic local shit is dope and good for you. Socialist beliefs don't always add up to lunatic nightmare, they can do smart spending on infrastructure as long as they're in an adversarial environment. (Same could be true for so many other political doctrines, you have to kinda wonder if that's a trend or something.)

[slomo]

I'll even grant that the white nationalists, whose positions I deeply disagree with, who even frighten me (a mixed-race homosexual), espouse beliefs that have a kernel of truth buried underneath all that craziness: namely, that nobody in the mainstream political arena is currently voicing the interests and concerns of working class white men.

Eh? Ever hear of the Republican Party?

It may surprise you to know that a large percentage of those benighted white folks can see through the Republican party, which even though it claims to represent the working class white, does no such thing. It exclusively protects the members of elite classes, (It's very disingenuous to suggest otherwise on RI of all places.) White supremacists (at least the more erudite members thereof) talk about this fact all the time.

"Before I agree with punitive policies to close apparent wage gaps, I'd like to see rigorous statistical analysis supporting those policies..."

So, it's ok to discriminate against women if you feel it's financially punitive not to? How very kind you are, slomo. Although I must say, it is a most peculiar form of equality you preach.

Oh FFS, it's well known that the 78c-to-the-dollar statistic is a manipulative misrepresentation of the truth. It seems to suggest that the underlying cause is systematic discrimination, when in fact the largest underlying cause is the choices that women themselves make, vis-a-vis education, exiting the workforce to raise families, etc. (Or do you honestly believe a Women's Studies degree entitles one to the same salary as an engineering degree?) I'll note that even with all the efforts to incentivize women's entry into STEM fields, including relaxation of core standards, women still tend to choose "softer" fields. Side note (because now it seems that I have to justify everything): the women I've met who do choose the harder fields and survive in them are awesome.

Here's a relatively balanced Huffington Post article on the wage gap myth, although the technical paper on which it is based can no longer be found at URL the article gives.

While we're on the subject of gender gaps, let's talk about the mortality gap. Why do women live longer than men? Oh, now you're gonna claim that it's men's choices that are to blame?

[slomo]

Eh? Ever hear of the Republican Party?

Equally sarcastically: Ever hear of Donald Trump?

Working class is the key distinction here. I see this reflex a lot in my personal life, since I have family and friends on the activist fringes of so many "sides" of our kayfabe culture...but here's the jig: Twelve out of twelve months, leftist - and especially "liberal" Democrat - discourse will recycle the Lumpenproleteriat False Consciousness cop-out ... that working class white people vote Republican "against their own self-interest."

It's either true or it is not.

Either the GOP is the party of crazy, reactionary poor white people, or it's actually a sick, century-old psy-op whereby smart, cynical wealthy elites play reactionary poor white people like a motherfucking muppet, for fun and profit.

You know, like the DNC.

What he said!

As I mentioned above, it's disingenuous for anybody who has participated extensively on this board to claim that the Republican party is not a "sick, century-old psy-op whereby smart, cynical wealthy elites play reactionary poor white people like a motherfucking muppet, for fun and profit... like the DNC."

[slomo]

Actually though, there is one voice addressing their actual concerns, and that is Bernie Sanders, who has more traction in that demographic segment than most "on the right" would like to admit.

That is a non-trivial point. The support for Sanders here is fucking remarkable, really confounds basic political narrative stereotypes. Seventh generation gun-owning church-going farm-running Republicans love Bernie. Because that motherfucker delivered results for his constituents. His support -- real, actual support -- for the veteran community is way beyond photo ops. He goes to the mat for Our Troops, line item for line item, more than anyone in Congress. A lot of that is just clout, of course, there's a lot of young and old veterans in those halls who have both the balls and brains to catch up. Once they're 120 like Bernie is.

Social signaling confounds so much of our conversation, because the wrong things become shorthand for the bad things. It's cool to shit on hipsters, but farmers markets and artisan, organic local shit is dope and good for you. Socialist beliefs don't always add up to lunatic nightmare, they can do smart spending on infrastructure as long as they're in an adversarial environment. (Same could be true for so many other political doctrines, you have to kinda wonder if that's a trend or something.)

Yes, Sanders does fuck up the old narratives. How does he do that? By actually listening to the broad concerns of multiple demographics. Not by stuffing his fingers in his ears and singing la la la I can't hear you!

[Wombaticus Rex]

Well, to be fair, he'll do that, too:

[slomo]

Fair enough.

Hamas is not a demographic he'll listen to.

[Wombaticus Rex]

Fair enough.

Hamas is not a demographic he'll listen to.

I'm more of a Hezbollah man, myself, and since I know pretty much everyone in that room, I would have fucking suplexed that dude through the town hall window. Don't take my remarks as entirely derogatory, but as a politician, Bernie surely should have handled that better.

Related note: big thanks to L. Fithian for your work in Vermont! These Rising Tide kids owe you a lot, and few of them know it.

Edit:

I would have fucking suplexed that dude through the town hall window.

This is obviously a fictitious, macho fantasy. There is no way I could muster enough of a deadlift before 2017 to get that man off his feet, let alone force and sustain his body mass through a stationary window.

But still, picture it with me. Thank you for your help.

[backtoiam]

Feminism is a fine thing when it works for the equal right of women. It jumped the shark when it transmuted into a "war on men" and this is what slomo is getting at.

Women who are truly concerned with womens rights might want to consider slomo's opinion, just in my little humble opinion, or men will fight back, and this whole thing will go back into reverse over the next few decades.

This seems simple to me.

[slomo]

I would have fucking suplexed that dude through the town hall window.

This is obviously a fictitious, macho fantasy. There is no way I could muster enough of a deadlift before 2017 to get that man off his feet, let alone force and sustain his body mass through a stationary window.

But still, picture it with me. Thank you for your help.

Consider it pictured!

[slomo]

Feminism is a fine thing when it works for the equal right of women. It jumped the shark when it transmuted into a "war on men" and this is what slomo is getting at.

Women who are truly concerned with womens rights might want to consider slomo's opinion, just in my little humble opinion, or men will fight back, and this whole thing will go back into reverse over the next few decades.

This seems simple to me.

Indeed. The guys at r/theRedPill are not 60-year old fogeys, strangers to feminism. They're mostly 20-somethings that grew up with a constant mainstream din of women's issues, with sisters, mothers, and probably grandmothers who identify as feminists. The predominant theme in their self-narrated histories is anger at having been lied to. They bought the message, and it blew up in their faces. Now they're Redpillers. Congratulations. Want more of 'em? Feminists, keep doing what you're doing.

[backtoiam]

a voice of pure reasoning and understanding just drew wrote:

the gop is not "voicing the interests and concerns of working class white men" - it's manipulating them, at times, with shark bait bullshit,