Which gender are you?

[guruilla]

It's one thing to take guesses regarding who's become best adapted, but the criteria could be modified to focus on those who create deep change/wield transformative power - as opposed to sadistic hoarders who hog too much of our attention spans (an adaptive strategy in its own right)

I think my aim was to question the assumed value of adaptation.

[tapitsbo]

Even better - brings deliberative adaptive conditioning to mind

[Project Willow]

Catching up after the holiday and associated issues caught all my attention the last couple of days...

Another thing about "male pattern violence". I keep hearing about how violent men are, and yet radical feminists display a shocking level of violent ideation towards men. And there is a concept of "violence by proxy", where women are able to wield (e.g.) the power of the state to act violently towards others. (For example, it is indeed a thing that men who are actual victims of domestic violence end up getting physically assaulted by police officers as a result of a single phone call placed by the abusing woman. It does happen, and more frequently than many people realize.)

I'm not convinced at all that women have less violent ideation than men; I think rather that because women are typically smaller and physically weaker than men, they are less directly responsible for violent acts, and so it only appears that women are less violent.

I'm sorry you hate men as a class. From what I understand of your background, you may have some good reasons for choosing that path. But your picture of men as a group does not match what I perceive as reality.

Most of the men with whom I've argued over various topics on this board have made the same assumption, so let me set the record straight. I was abused by both men and women, although I will say that the perp system that ensnared me is hierarchical and patriarchal, and the majority of perps are men. However, both men and women have helped me heal over the course of my lifetime. Some of my favorite people, and vociferous survivor advocates, are male. My primary caregiver is male, and there is not another human being on this planet within whom I place more trust. If it weren't for these men, I would not be alive. I love them and I owe them my life, so I will say, even though it's a terribly cliche thing for any feminist to have to do, I (quite obviously) do not hate men.

Justified anger, even outrage, at culturally imposed systems of behavior does not equate to hatred of a class of people, let alone any individual, nor does it require "violent ideation". As to your thoughts about feminists, anger isn't considered pretty, and it's not always expressed in the most effective ways.

[Project Willow]

Okay, first off, there should be nothing inherently derogatory about labeling something a mental illness. Mental illness should carry no shame or stigma. Our whole culture is so off base in regards to this, it deserves a book level response.

The problem IMO is with the term “mental illness.” I think it is inherently derogatory, not because there’s any shame in being damaged, but because it misrepresents the reality of what causes self-destructive behaviors, subtle and extreme.

This is part of what I meant by book level response. Yes, the very concept requires deconstructing from several perspectives. I'll just point you to this talk to give you an idea of my stance on the issue: http://lynnschirmer.com/schirmernews/seattle-city-hall-talk/

Just to expand a bit on the convo that followed, there is indeed a growing area of research linking trauma to all manner of "mental Illnesses" once thought to be purely biologically based. Ross touches on this in the video I posted in the RA/MC thread.

[slomo]

Catching up after the holiday and associated issues caught all my attention the last couple of days...

Another thing about "male pattern violence". I keep hearing about how violent men are, and yet radical feminists display a shocking level of violent ideation towards men. And there is a concept of "violence by proxy", where women are able to wield (e.g.) the power of the state to act violently towards others. (For example, it is indeed a thing that men who are actual victims of domestic violence end up getting physically assaulted by police officers as a result of a single phone call placed by the abusing woman. It does happen, and more frequently than many people realize.)

I'm not convinced at all that women have less violent ideation than men; I think rather that because women are typically smaller and physically weaker than men, they are less directly responsible for violent acts, and so it only appears that women are less violent.

I'm sorry you hate men as a class. From what I understand of your background, you may have some good reasons for choosing that path. But your picture of men as a group does not match what I perceive as reality.

Most of the men with whom I've argued over various topics on this board have made the same assumption, so let me set the record straight. I was abused by both men and women, although I will say that the perp system that ensnared me is hierarchical and patriarchal, and the majority of perps are men. However, both men and women have helped me heal over the course of my lifetime. Some of my favorite people, and vociferous survivor advocates, are male. My primary caregiver is male, and there is not another human being on this planet within whom I place more trust. If it weren't for these men, I would not be alive. I love them and I owe them my life, so I will say, even though it's a terribly cliche thing for any feminist to have to do, I (quite obviously) do not hate men.

Justified anger, even outrage, at culturally imposed systems of behavior does not equate to hatred of a class of people, let alone any individual, nor does it require "violent ideation". As to your thoughts about feminists, anger isn't considered pretty, and it's not always expressed in the most effective ways.

PW, the major issue I have with "Patriarchy" is that it is almost always conflated with men and male behavior, and many feminist writings (some of the classics in particular) do this. If by Patriarchy you mean hierarchical systems of domination, be they perpetuated by men or women, then I am inclined to agree with many if not most of your opinions. The point you make -- that abuse is meted out by both men and women, and healing is facilitated both by men and by women -- is a very important one.

[Project Willow]

Trans 101 for Wobblies



A great set of introductory guides to trans terminology, issues for trans people and trans issues as workers' rights issues. Produced by Fey, a trans member of the Industrial Workers of the World revolutionary union, nicknamed the "Wobblies".

Starts here: http://iwwboston.org/2012/05/15/trans-1 ... rminology/

War is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength, trans politics smashes the patriarchy.

Meanwhile, trans activists are continuously threatening violence against feminists:

http://terfisaslur.tumblr.com/


http://violentreceipts.tumblr.com/


And seeking to shut down any discussion of reproductive rights or female organs:

http://dailycaller.com/2015/11/02/colleges-project-vulva-attacked-for-transphobia/
Related: UCLA apologizes for saying women menstruate

Women or females don't get pregnant, people do:
http://womancenteredmidwifery.org/take-action/



She's not an infertile woman, biologically, she's a man!

Just a few of countless examples. Yeah, you're so radical AD, you're come around to caveman status.

[Project Willow]

PW, the major issue I have with "Patriarchy" is that it is almost always conflated with men and male behavior, and many feminist writings (some of the classics in particular) do this. If by Patriarchy you mean hierarchical systems of domination, be they perpetuated by men or women, then I am inclined to agree with many if not most of your opinions. The point you make -- that abuse is meted out by both men and women, and healing is facilitated both by men and by women -- is a very important one.

By Patriarchy, I mean a system that delivers a set of net benefits to men. I say net because there are demonstrable sacrifices men make in order to benefit. I also do not deny that women, either consciously or unconsciously, play their role in perpetuating Patriarchy. It's a system we all grow up in, and unless we actively de-condition ourselves, we’re going to act in ways that prop it up. I do so myself, (much to my enduring frustration after the fact), there's always an interesting tension between intellectual understanding and behavior.

If we unpack it down to an individual level, no one wants to be thought of as less than, yet that is what our culture conditions us to do, and it also conditions us to display or enact behaviors that reinforce the hierarchy. There is a set of behaviors that animals in any social species display to signal their place in the hierarchy. Lower ranking animals roll over, cower, pull in, or any such analogous behaviors. Lower ranking humans smile more, placate, and take up less space, just to name a few displays. There are studies that show individuals perform based on how their social group cohort is perceived by wider society. The status of lower ranking humans is reflected in our all of societal systems, economic, justice, cultural. For example, some work is deemed worthy of pay, while other work is not, like child rearing, and housework. These gestures and structures are part of what's being critiqued by feminists and members of other lower ranking classes of people. That we've become aware and don't wish to be relegated to lower castes is not that surprising.

[American Dream]

The battle between transfeminists and radfems was/is epic and anyone who wants to look into that hornets' nest could easily find a weeks of reading entertainment out of it. Possibly, it might be enlightening too.

I will just say this:

1. It was to me a strategic error that certain transfeminists chose as some of their first targets "womyn's only" events like the Michigan Women's Music Festival to get entree too.

2. The majority of the trans people I know were raised as "girls" and ironically enough would probably have a fairly easy time getting into those "womyn's only events" .

3. Patriarchy is central (and it is only one social institution of many), though it deeply affects cis and trans people alike.

4. "An injury to one is an injury to all"- and this includes' cis women's liberation as well as trans liberation.

[guruilla]

AD gets the last word? Say it isn't so.

[Project Willow]

^ Hmmm, respond to a man who believes that men can be raised "as girls", who thinks that de-platforming, the destruction of careers, the loss of legal rights and protections based on sex, the re-naming and re-classification of women, the silencing of female anatomy, and death threats are "entertaining reading", a man who ignores and dismisses every injury and then proceeds to preach about injury, and mansplains about patriarchy, all with a head-pat as if I crawled out of cave yesterday.

All manner of bullshit misogyny can be delivered with gleefully insulting condescension to women everywhere, as long it has a faux intersectional trans bow on it. I don't respond too well to insults.

[backtoiam]

The battle between transfeminists and radfems was/is epic and anyone who wants to look into that hornets' nest could easily find a weeks of reading entertainment out of it. Possibly, it might be enlightening too.

The battle between transfeminists and radfems was/is epic and anyone who wants to look into that hornets' nest could easily find a weeks of reading entertainment out of it. Possibly, it might be enlightening too.

I will just say this:

1. It was to me a strategic error that certain transfeminists chose as some of their first targets "womyn's only" events like the Michigan Women's Music Festival to get entree too.

2. The majority of the trans people I know were raised as "girls" and ironically enough would probably have a fairly easy time getting into those "womyn's only events" .

3. Patriarchy is central (and it is only one social institution of many), though it deeply affects cis and trans people alike.

4. "An injury to one is an injury to all"- and this includes' cis women's liberation as well as trans liberation.

Damn right, might as well drag everyyyyyybody that was never involved into this right?

Anybody with a brain bigger than a peanut can see that these comments were designed in some sort of damn think tank laboratory and designed to be as inflammatory as possible. We have "transfeminists" who "chose their targets." How big was that crowd AD?

Huge wasn't it? Its a huge war isn't it? I might be wrong but I don't see people that have decided to have sexual preferences outside of their own natural born gender roles having war in the streets on a massive scale and I don't believe this too much.

If they hang out can they squabble among themselves? Sure they can. But show me any group that might not squabble every now and then? This is low quality bait....

I have seen hair dressers fight at a convention over the best hair products....This is not a war but only in AD's mind.


3. Patriarchy is central (and it is only one social institution of many), though it deeplyaffects cis and trans people alike.

Damn right good move. Break out the patriarchy word and drag the whole man race into this, which actually, is mostly quite unaware of this "war." Those damn men caused alllll this again. Damn them too. Might as well drag them into the dog fight right?

Is there anybody of any gender, any race, of any color, of any sexual persuasion, of any ethnicity, that you cannot tie together with a rope like bull dogs tied together in a pit fighting arena AD?

This qualifies for slap stick comedy bro...carry on though...you are like weather vane on a roof. I suppose we need to know who to make friends with, which of course is the people you tell us we need to fight against....I will look for the people you tell us we need to fight, and make friends with those people...asshat

[82_28]

PW, for the company I work for, all of my bosses are women. It's a nationwide also worldwide company. There is no gender gap in pay. Women get promoted far more often than men. There is precisely NO misogyny in this huge company. Not only is it not tolerated, but doesn't seem to be a thing even if it were tolerated. Even bartending for the past whatever years I did it, there was no misogyny -- more camaraderie than anything else. When was the last time you had a job in which you witnessed any of your claims? At 40 years of age I think you're full of shit. Sorry, but the world you envision outside of your art colony does not exist the way you think it does. It's good to be aware of the possibilities if it did exist -- but it doesn't in real life.

[American Dream]

The majority of the trans people I know were raised as "girls" and ironically enough would probably have a fairly easy time getting into those "womyn's only events" .

This means that the majority of trans people I know and hang out with were assigned female gender all their childhood, and then as young adults- mostly through being politically and culturally radical, lesbian/bi, reading and studying lots and lots of Feminism, decided to bust out of strict gender conformity. They are most always welcomed (and indeed honored) in womyn's spaces.

Equatingt trans people with stereotypical transwomen is, in my experience, a big myth.

[slomo]

PW, for the company I work for, all of my bosses are women. It's a nationwide also worldwide company. There is no gender gap in pay. Women get promoted far more often than men. There is precisely NO misogyny in this huge company. Not only is it not tolerated, but doesn't seem to be a thing even if it were tolerated. Even bartending for the past whatever years I did it, there was no misogyny -- more camaraderie than anything else. When was the last time you had a job in which you witnessed any of your claims? At 40 years of age I think you're full of shit. Sorry, but the world you envision outside of your art colony does not exist the way you think it does. It's good to be aware of the possibilities if it did exist -- but it doesn't in real life.

I concur with this observation, while simultaneously acknowledging the capacity for confirmation bias, the risk of which is especially high when considering matters of gender. That is why statistics -- appropriately analyzed -- are so important in this arena.

There was some great stuff on nursing a few years back, I will see if I can dig it up after work. Nursing is an interesting case because it has traditionally been considered a female-dominated field, but increasing numbers of men are now entering. And not girly-gay-men (the sterotype from decades back) but, e.g., ex-military. From what I recall, a gap did still exist (M>F) after correcting for experience, education, specialization, overtime hours, etc., but it was not large.

[Heaven Swan]

American Dream wrote:
"The majority of the trans people I know were raised as "girls" and ironically enough would probably have a fairly easy time getting into those "womyn's only events" .

This means that the majority of trans people I know and hang out with were assigned female gender all their childhood, and then as young adults- mostly through being politically and culturally radical, lesbian/bi, reading and studying lots and lots of Feminism, decided to bust out of strict gender conformity. They are most always welcomed (and indeed honored) in womyn's spaces.

Equatingt trans people with stereotypical transwomen is, in my experience, a big myth."

Transmen i.e. Biological females who douse their bodies with dangerous synthetic male hormones are women and were 100% welcome at Michfest. Thanks in great part to opposition by trans lobbyists and activists, the 40th and final fest was held last summer. 8,000 women attended. One very popular event there was organized by de-transitioned and de-transitioning trans"men".