Abolish the White Race - By Any Means Necessary

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Re: Abolish the White Race - By Any Means Necessary

Postby American Dream » Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:46 pm

Wombaticus Rex » Mon Feb 22, 2016 1:57 pm wrote:
American Dream » Mon Feb 22, 2016 1:29 pm wrote:You presented much more as a left/liberal friendly person the first several years I was here.

Did something change? If so, when?


What changed? I'm just as friendly as I've ever been -- more so, if anything.

(Did you parse the part of that paragraph you quoted where I specifically talked about the fact I don't need to agree with y'all to be not only politely genial, but genuinely enjoy the company here?)


Of course I meant the ideology/politics that you are presenting these days, as compared to before.

What happened?
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Re: Abolish the White Race - By Any Means Necessary

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:23 pm

Image

I bought an electric guitar, started learning some Slayer songs, and man...everything changed.

More seriously, what really shifted in the past five years is that you have expanded the parameters of what you find suspect even as conversation here has stayed quite consistent, in terms of both tone and content. You're seeing an encroaching contagion and sounding the alarm, which necessitates me spending time defending the contributions of other members. My explicit advocacy for the discussion of issues you find problematic now strikes you as a change in my personal politics...and, no doubt, further proof of the encroaching contagion.

And good luck with all that!
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Re: Abolish the White Race - By Any Means Necessary

Postby American Dream » Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:31 pm

So you were into Alt Right/Far Right type discourse years ago as with the (academically questionable/discredited) thinking about The Bell Curve and that sort of racialist doctrine that you presented here today?

Why wasn't it much more visible on your various websites then- and/or on your various comments here on RI?
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Re: Abolish the White Race - By Any Means Necessary

Postby jakell » Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:54 pm

These things seem to have less emotional weight than they had years ago, they were almost taboo, and people are possibly feeling less oppressed in speaking of them. The forum seems to be reflecting that change. ie, the forum isn't changing so much, it is the psychosphere

Of course, there are some RI family issues too, which always seem to be around. I'm outside of most of that.
Last edited by jakell on Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Abolish the White Race - By Any Means Necessary

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:54 pm

American Dream » Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:31 pm wrote:So you were into Alt Right/Far Right type discourse years ago as with the (academically discredited) ideas about The Bell Curve and that sort of racialist doctrine that you presented here today?

Why wasn't it much more visible on your various websites then- and/or on your various comments here on RI?


I don't know what you mean by "academically discredited" but I bet it doesn't have much to do with science! Again, current consensus is interesting and weird stuff which complicates everyone's narrative on race and intelligence.

Again, the issues around intelligence itself are a lot more interesting, which probably explains why you have never seen any frowning expositions on the SAT scores of Chinese vs. Korean immigrants on my "various websites" -- it's not all that interesting. Same reason I don't care very much about Israel vs. Palestine, you know?

Especially when it gets pitched as an argument about the very fate of humanity, whereby any discussion of racial difference can only end in eugenics which can only end in genocide.

Your whole engagement with me here has been an illustration of the dynamic I started this conversation by describing: the re-framing by which simply acknowledging the reality of racial differences between adult human beings becomes "racialist doctrine."

So, am I now or have I ever been? Well, it all began when I started reading P.J. O'Rourke and Jim Goad in high school...
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Re: Abolish the White Race - By Any Means Necessary

Postby American Dream » Mon Feb 22, 2016 7:16 pm

Honestly, it's very hard for me to believe that Jeff Wells gave fully informed consent to this current state of affairs.

Stranger things are possible, I suppose.
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Re: Abolish the White Race - By Any Means Necessary

Postby Iamwhomiam » Mon Feb 22, 2016 7:45 pm

It's disappointing to read someone reference Murray as authoritative on anything outside his chosen field of statistics. While his statistics in The Bell Curve are accurate, his conclusions are nothing more than the promotion of the meme that 'nothing can be done to improve the lives of the poor, so why spend money on welfare and public housing programs?'

One cannot fairly discuss his 1994 book, The Bell Curve, without taking into consideration his entire body of published work, in the field of statistics and his authorship of several other books. Surprisingly, in discussions about The Bell Curve, most focus upon Murray solely, and remain oblivious to his co-author, Richard J. Herrnstein. Herrnstein, like Murray are old school Malthusians.

And that's where the Pioneer Fund enters the picture. Need I say more?

One must examine the content of Murray's books in the context of the times they were written, especially with regard to the then present political agenda. (perhaps ever-present), with regard to controlling society's movement, not of the elite, but of their "burden," the poor.

Classic cases all, of victimizing the victims as the cause for our social ills.

Ten years before he wrote The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life, Murray authored Losing Ground: American Social Policy, 1950-1980. Theresa Funnicello and I, along with several welfare recipients of Theresa's choosing, were invited by the Phil Donahue Show to debate with Murray his conclusions in Losing Ground. We, on the nationally televised network broadcast stage of the Donahue long ago (1985) debunked and proved false his book's "conclusions." We chose not to raise the issue of who his employer then was while he wrote his book of lies.

One example on stage was a white woman welfare recipient. She had 4 or 5 children and was from Cape Cod. She was a sixth generation Yankee and proud of her heritage. Her husband had been a minister before he abandoned her and his kids, throwing them into an entirely different social class and onto the ranks of those in need of public assistance.

Supposedly, I'm a borderline genius, (an obsolete term), or was when I was tested around the age of 25 and again at 30, (147 and 152 respectively), who hails from rather lily white roots who was brought up in comfort and have lived my entire adult life in poverty. My unmet needs were psychological in nature. Both of my children were raised in public housing. Both of my kids were very smart. My son's IQ was off the chart and he excelled, mastering French at an early age and later, Chinese, but my daughter at 15 was swallowed by the streets. She eventually became a nurse, though today she remains impoverished. To my great surprise, I learned after his death that before he had turned 30 my son was more accomplished than I. Today I'm sure my IQ is average, around 100. I feel IQ is irrelevant and a creation of Malthusians. They really only test one's exposure to knowledge.

Oddly, Murray rarely if ever mentions "privilege." By this I mean the assistance of familial relationships within the egalitarian class, which is what allows so many to remain privileged by removing obstacles to achievement for members of their class while creating obstacles for any potential challengers. (door openers; a hand up, red tape cutters, etc.)

Lastly, Murray does not discuss the negative impacts of early childhood mental development from poor nutrition a very great many of those who are impoverished experience.

If we make it through this century without incinerating ourselves and into the next, we eventually see come about the blending of races to finally become one people of Earth. There will then still be Neanderthals, small enclaves of those unwilling to "taint" their whiteness, their redness, their yellowness, their blackness. Perhaps only then will we realize we are all the same, just humans with common needs.

Yes, the Bell Curve was disproved long ago.

The Bell Curve Is A Myth — Most People Are Actually Underperformers
http://www.businessinsider.com/new-study-debunks-idea-that-human-performance-fits-on-a-bell-curve-2012-5

What Do IQ Tests Test?: Interview with Psychologist W. Joel Schneider
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/beautiful-minds/what-do-iq-tests-test-interview-with-psychologist-w-joel-schneider/

It seems obvious that when we are faced with a decision between doing The Wrong Thing based on false information from an IQ test and doing The Right Thing by ignoring the IQ test when it is wrong, we should do the right thing. Unfortunately, we do not live in that universe, the one in which we always know what The Right Thing is.


Welfare As We Don't Know It
http://www.welfareacademy.org/pubs/welfare/welfare-0793.shtml

That took me 3 hours to write edit and re-edit. I must be an idiot!
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Re: Abolish the White Race - By Any Means Necessary

Postby stillrobertpaulsen » Mon Feb 22, 2016 8:07 pm

American Dream » Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:16 pm wrote:Honestly, it's very hard for me to believe that Jeff Wells gave fully informed consent to this current state of affairs.


Ergo: there must have been a coup d'etat.

Which beggars the obvious question: what are you still doing here?
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Re: Abolish the White Race - By Any Means Necessary

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:05 pm

Well, I did attempt to set Murray's pork digits aside earlier, but I didn't help my case by stating it as "The Bell Curve is real," certainly.

"The statistical gaps between average IQ scores by race is persistently replicated over time," would have been more precise. It is also moving, which is what makes it interesting. (Like the Flynn Effect, I cynically attribute much of that gain to television's role passively time-binding culture into human beings around the world.) Regardless, I accept that Murray is a bit like Beetlejuice, only 66% easier to summon.

Iamwhomiam » Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:45 pm wrote:Ten years before he wrote The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life, Murray authored Losing Ground: American Social Policy, 1950-1980. Theresa Funnicello and I, along with several welfare recipients of Theresa's choosing, were invited by the Phil Donahue Show to debate with Murray his conclusions in Losing Ground. We, on the nationally televised network broadcast stage of the Donahue long ago (1985) debunked and proved false his book's "conclusions." We chose not to raise the issue of who his employer then was while he wrote his book of lies.


That's awesome. Indeed, one of many places I part with yon "race realists" is precisely the notion that race effects on IQ are some kind of Ur-Trait; of far more significance than any other variable. The data is clear that there are a lot of intervention points for boosting general intelligence. Factors like social class, education, even health care all correlate to huge differences in both IQ scores and overall, as they say, life outcomes.

Learned ignorance is very real, and very related to learned helplessness -- despite being tremendously damaging, both are reversible, too.

Anyways, Murray is a professional propagandist. Know that I agree with you there. While I am skeptical of the value of most Progressive-state attempts at social intervention, especially the well-intentioned ones, that does't mean I'm advocating doing Purge Day for 365 days a year, every year. Indeed, that's precisely why I support interventions like Universal Basic Income. (Although I do dread knowing it will probably get implemented as a "paternal libertarian" choice matrix Nudge system, like having that talking paper clip from Windows 97 do your grocery shopping for you.)
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Re: Abolish the White Race - By Any Means Necessary

Postby Searcher08 » Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:43 pm

stillrobertpaulsen » Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:07 am wrote:
American Dream » Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:16 pm wrote:Honestly, it's very hard for me to believe that Jeff Wells gave fully informed consent to this current state of affairs.


Ergo: there must have been a coup d'etat.

Which beggars the obvious question: what are you still doing here?


"This current state of affairs" is a construct that exists only in your head, not in reality. The construct seems to have elements of Jeff subscribing to your brand of 1-Up totalitarian propagandising that reminds me of this more than anything. Jeff's shoe! Jeff's shoe!
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Re: Abolish the White Race - By Any Means Necessary

Postby Iamwhomiam » Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:54 pm

Thank you for your reply, Mr. WRex.
Well, I did attempt to set Murray's pork digits aside earlier, but I didn't help my case by stating it as "The Bell Curve is real," certainly.


Yes, I noticed that and no, you didn't.

"The statistical gaps between average IQ scores by race is persistently replicated over time," would have been more precise. It is also moving, which is what makes it interesting.


I would think by class, rather than by race. (I've read some of the statistics and know this is arguable.) Due to discrimination, some willfully have been deprived the nutritional needs and healthcare wealthier classes take for granted. This of course impacts negatively on infantile brain development, which in turn, limits one's ability to learn and ultimately, their overall success. (if success is to be judged by lifetime wealth accumulation alone)

However, most without an agenda today, I believe, discount IQ as being immaterial to one's success. (if they are not brain damaged) There are always exceptions, of course. Because of inherent physical disabilities, some idiots will remain idiots; barring those, anyone can learn and improve their knowledge, which is all IQ tests actually test for.

The data is clear that there are a lot of intervention points for boosting general intelligence. Factors like social class, education, even health care all correlate to huge differences in both IQ scores and overall, as they say, life outcomes.


I believe we're in agreement.

Indeed, that's precisely why I support interventions like Universal Basic Income.


Thank you for your support in this area. It is most a most sensible way to strengthen and unify our future society. There will be exceptions, of course.

While not quite the same, UBI is similar to what we who long ago sought, which all other industrialized nations already had, a Family Allowance.

DWAC, the NYC based Downtown Welfare Advocacy Center, RAM, the Redistribute America Movement, SA, Social Agenda, were all working towards raising the awareness of the public and policy makers enough to create the change in society to do away with 'Charity' based institutions that absorbed the greatest chunk of federal spending on all social programs and instead directly fund individuals. Cash, not foodstamps. Cash for housing, not easily discriminated against "Housing Vouchers." "Money talks, vouchers walk."

How many stories have we heard about the welfare queen buying steaks or lobster, holding up the grocery check out line? Think those responses would have happened if they paid in cash?

This why most, but not all the original steering committee members for NYS Hands Across America revolted and resigned. More money to charitable institutions, like food banks and pantries. (Corporations donate tons of food to regional food banks and then get to write-off the full retail price. Often times the donated food is very close to or past its expiration date and virtually unsalable. I was once offered the job of managing our regional food bank, which I unkindly rejected.)

Theresa's book, Tyranny of Kindness: Dismantling the Welfare System to End Poverty in America is a must read for those interested in social welfarewell-being. Some who bought the book were taken by surprise, having misunderstood its intent.

Anyway, I've drifted far off topic. Back to lurking...

edited to italicize "moving" in Rex's quote
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Re: Abolish the White Race - By Any Means Necessary

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Tue Feb 23, 2016 9:54 am

Wombaticus Rex » 23 Feb 2016 02:12 wrote:
Many believe that racism is an outdated ideology that will gradually lessen of its own accord until it finally disappears, like beliefs in witches or the practice of sun worshippers.


I talk to so many folks with that same earnest prayer. It's true that outdated ideologies gradually lessen of their own accord, of course: that's why such barbarous superstitions as Islam or Judaism are no longer with us in 2016. (Which, as we all know, is the current year.)

Another variant I'm seeing a lot is the Bulworth Theory of Race Relations, coined by Warren Beatty in his most memorable line from that otherwise forgettable film: "Everybody just gotta keep fuckin' everybody 'til they're all the same color." I've taken to calling that Pan-Admixture, mostly since so many people have said it to me since 2012 I needed a damn name for it. It's really been taking off lately -- often brought up with Brazil as the reference point, which is a tribute to the lack of context endemic with the I Fucking Love Science / Upworthy crowd.

But such evolutionary models fail to take into account the structural factors—like economic oppression and exploitation—that help perpetuate racist or homophobic ideologies.


Such curious phrasing -- since "such evolutionary models" are nothing but wishful thinking, and funnier still, they willfully omit any actual, like...evolutionary models. Which have a lot to say about the matter, albeit mostly hugely problematic stuff. (When Wilson published Sociobiology, people protested. Because of how it made them feel.)

The atomized Individual Consumer™ is the sovereign actor of our Aeon, and any notions of Group Selection are heresy. Until they're not. I'm guessing once key general merchandise markets start to dry up, Madison Avenue and Silicon Valley will embark upon a Manhattan Project scaled effort to re-calibrate our worldviews on belonging and identity. Keep an eye on the Mormons, especially how they get treated by the media in the decade to come.

Anyways, no sense worry too much about this kind of stuff. Surely rigorous application of strategies like "calling white people douchebags" will solve this. In a generation or two. Maybe three.


Sorry did OE Wilson publish an evolutionary model at some point?

Must have missed that.
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Re: Abolish the White Race - By Any Means Necessary

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:37 pm

Assuming O.E. is the same Wilson, definitely: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociobiol ... _Synthesis

The application of sociobiology to humans was immediately controversial. Some people, such as Stephen Jay Gould, and Richard Lewontin contended that sociobiology was biologicially determinist. They argued that it would be used, as similar ideas had been in the past, to justify the status quo, entrench ruling elites, and legitimize authoritarian political programmes. They referred to social darwinism and eugenics of the early 20th century, and to other more recent ideas, such as the IQ controversy of the early 1970s as cautionary tales in the use of evolutionary principles as applied to human society. They believed that Wilson was committing the naturalistic fallacy. Several academics opposed to Wilson's sociobiology created the Sociobiology Study Group to counter his ideas.


Some of those arguments in bold seem quite familiar, yeah? A bit like the notion that we should stop studying physics since it will only be used to build more weapons.

Charles Murray was a self-promoting propagandist who simply disregarded any fact that could trouble his conclusions, but in that he was only different from Stephen Jay Gould insofar as Murray was cold and uncharismatic, whereas Gould was great on camera or on stage.

There were a lot of good, accurate critiques of Sociobiology's initial publication, though. The 25th Anniversary Edition is pretty great, I've been reading through it for damn near five years now, on my third copy.
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Re: Abolish the White Race - By Any Means Necessary

Postby American Dream » Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:03 pm

Murray vs. Gould: let your two straw men battle it out- and may the best man win!

Wilson's books have a somewhat better rep than the Bell Curve but that's all relatively speaking. Wilson will not deodorize the stink from that notoriously racist book- and I think you know it. Certainly most all of Academia does, as that book has utterly failed multi-disciplinary peer review for decades now. The only ones I know of holding out for it now are highly prejudiced crackpot types.

Still the allegedly "scientific" expressions of Sociobiology in the existing world do repeatedly lead towards: Social Darwinism, Rape Culture, Scientific Racism, and a sort of Lifeboat Politics that further hurts those already most wounded by the existing social order.
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Re: Abolish the White Race - By Any Means Necessary

Postby Iamwhomiam » Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:37 pm

How does one do battle with a dead guy, AD?

Anyway, might as well rock the boat...

It may just be the white race came about through inbreeding due to their isolation over thousands of years during the ice age. Hey, it is possible, you know.

Burnt Hill might be more familiar with the White Deer confined within the fences of the Seneca Army Depot. The deer are white, but not albinos. Their coloring is due to their recessive genes and inbreeding.

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