The “Alternative Right"

[jakell]

He was fortunate, in a way. On his current US campus tour, alleged threats to his free speech, and the back and forth between Yiannopoulos and his antagonists have been the only thing sustaining interest in the whole enterprise.

I know because I attended a Milo event at which there was no left reception committee. When he appears unchallenged, the Milo show is the dampest of squibs.

At the University of Oregon, where I saw him, it was not clear that he was especially grateful for the platform, or the lack of interruptions.

So then, why does anti-fa think it is doing a service in 'going after' (obvious egomaniac nut-jobs)? Why not take the more logical route of ignoring them, there-by forcing their rhetoric into ever increasing dissonance expressions, (shit that don't make sense).

Without the imposed dichotomy, the rhetoric of alt-right, and probably pretty much all political posturing becomes exposed as shallow nonsense to the less 'educated' (and mostly downtrodden) light years before our better brainwashed recognize the ultimate pointlessness of the posturing.

In all fairness, I haven't seen antifa types gunning for Milo (yet**), probably because there are enough of their traditional looking foes around to go for first so they can look suitably 'manly' (those 'masculinities of the Left' again). His opposition seems to consist mainly of third wave feminists and those in their orbit. Very likely some antifa types lend their support though.

I'm not sure if AD is being deliberately contrary here. No sooner had it been claimed that alt-righters are "incredible anti-semites" and White Supremacists, then he throws Milo into the mix, who appears to be neither.


** they may get around to it if he shares a platform, or a softer target is required.

[American Dream]

You Can't Be Neutral on a Moving Train:

“From that moment on, I was no longer a liberal, a believer in the self-correcting character of American democracy. I was a radical, believing that something fundamental was wrong in this country—not just the existence of poverty amidst great wealth, not just the horrible treatment of black people, but something rotten at the root. The situation required not just a new president or new laws, but an uprooting of the old order, the introduction of a new kind of society—cooperative, peaceful, egalitarian.”

--Howard Zinn

[Sounder]

AD's proxy wrote...
"The situation required not just a new president or new laws, but an uprooting of the old order, the introduction of a new kind of society—cooperative, peaceful, egalitarian.”


The question at issue, and the cause of our disagreements, centers around how to get from here to there.

My assertion is that the 'old order' is maintained through clever manipulations of various manifestations of tribalism.
(It always has been)

People that add to this are not 'fighting the system', they are the system.

[American Dream]

There may be irreconcilable deal breakers. Such as black liberation, for one.

[jakell]

There may be irreconcilable deal breakers. Such as black liberation, for one.

Liberation is a wonderfully fuzzy word to marry to something else. It tends to only make good sense though when applied to clear restrictions, for instance:

Black liberation was an easier deal (taken from your own unusual usage here) in the context of slavery and subsequent forms of apartheid.
Women's liberation was an easier deal in the early to late Twentieth Century. Milo and Christina Hoff Summers would have been able to pad this one out with amusing anecdotes about Third Wave Feminism.

Trying to stay topical, in the light of recent talk of anti-semitism, can a case be made for Jewish liberation? I'm sure there are plenty of creative types who could.

[American Dream]

However, even identity politics does not have unfet­tered power in the political mainstream. Even the appearance of altering power relations in this soci­ety is, to some, a threat. These reactionaries claim that identity politics seeks special rights for certain groups. This flawed logic rests on the idea that, since people are guaranteed equality under the Constitu­tion, then the problem of legal inequality is non-existent. Even if one accepts the logic of the state, the discrepancy between legal/political equality and social equality is telling.

Another reaction to the Left’s adoption of identity politics is the rise of hard-Right identity politics. This leads to absurdities such as men’s rights move­ments, white rights movements, and groups dedi­cated to preserving Christian culture and identity. One can see a connection between these two reac­tionary positions, despite their apparent contradic­tions. Each position represents a different tactic towards the same goal: maintaining a class-based society along with the homophobic, white-suprem­acist, and patriarchal structures that uphold it. This stands in contrast to identity politics, which seeks to mildly reform class society and its institutions.

In short, there today exists a tension between pro­gressive identity politics and reactionary anti-iden­tity politics. The failure of both rests in their reliance on the state and capitalism as basis for their vision of society. Both seek to better manage the present order. It is clear: there exists a subset of people in this society that benefit from the current social or­der. These people include queer people, people of color, women, and every identity. Politicians, police, prison guards, landlords, and bosses: these are our enemies. They come in all forms.

It is equally clear that queer-bashers, rapists, and racists are similarly enemies of liberation. While in some cases these are not people with access to and the backing of institutional power, the violence they inflict is no less real or important. Indeed, their tactics are taken directly from the state, and uphold systems of control even after the formal powers of­ficially abandon them.

https://libcom.org/library/identity-pol ... erspective

[coffin_dodger]

From AD's piece, above -

It is equally clear that queer-bashers, rapists, and racists are similarly enemies of liberation

It is equally clear that conflating queer-bashers and racists to rapist status is part of the drunk on their own ideas fanatical anti-fascist rhetoric to reduce everything to hyper realism. You are either with us, agree in entirety, or you are the enemy. There is no nuance, subtlety or comprehension that we live in a world of vastly different personalities and worldviews. Anti-fascism has become the perfect foil to Fascism.
Scary shit. I hope you enjoy the ideas you espouse when they fruit - you'll be one of very few. Maybe that's the idea.

[Elihu]

From AD's piece, above -

It is equally clear that queer-bashers, rapists, and racists are similarly enemies of liberation

It is equally clear that conflating queer-bashers and racists to rapist status is part of the drunk on their own ideas fanatical anti-fascist rhetoric to reduce everything to hyper realism. You are either with us, agree in entirety, or you are the enemy. There is no nuance, subtlety or comprehension that we live in a world of vastly different personalities and worldviews. Anti-fascism has become the perfect foil to Fascism.
Scary shit. I hope you enjoy the ideas you espouse when they fruit - you'll be one of very few. Maybe that's the idea.

I agree with that. A dishonest motive hiding behind an inflammatory hog-swill of racism and antifa

[American Dream]

Surely we all know that not all rapists are queer bashers or racists- these come in all varieties and permutations. The really flimsy straw man being floated by y'all defends who? Racists, xenophobes and bigots first and foremost? Reactionaries in general? Those of the above that claim to be "fighting the power"? Maybe those of the above who hide their shit under a "neither Right nor Left" and/or "Rights" banner?

There are those who practice all of the above in various times and places, as they play a shell game that fools mostly those who desperately want to be fooled...

[coffin_dodger]

AD said:

Not all rapists are queer bashers or racists- these come in all varieties and permutations. The really flimsy straw man being floated by y'all defends who? Racists, first and foremost? Reactionaries in general? Those of the above that claim to be "fighting the power"? Maybe those who hide their evil shit under a "neither Right nor Left" banner?

Mostly likely all of the above in various times and places, as they play a shell game that fools mostly those who desperately want to be fooled..

I completely understand that you can't see it, because you're living it.

The consistant use of buzz-word terms like 'straw man' and elsewhere, 'false dichotemy' - demonstrate just how captured your mind is in this monumental struggle. Anyone that disagrees with your fanaticism is either presenting a straw-man argument or presenting a false dichotemy. You absorb nothing but your fellow fanatic viewpoints. Trapped. You manage to alienate anyone who disagrees explicitly with what you say as right and true. You sound very, very angry and that is not a rational state to be making judgement calls. We all experience exasperation, but it's how we deal with it that speaks volumes about who we are.

I must address this:

Maybe those who hide their evil shit under a "neither Right nor Left" banner?

This is verging on paranoia. I don't feel I need to explain why.

[82_28]

Can someone please explain where AD's posts threaten anyone? I get the preoccupation part and it can be annoying but constantly giving him shit is getting hella old. He is going to post and comment and is free to do so. Like I said in some other thread, we all have our own brains and can decide for ourselves but the vitriol and ridicule AD gets is lame. I read AD here and there but ultimately I don't care about what anyone has to say as far as criticism -- thus I can withstand shit I read with my very own intellect. Say it and just be nice. It isn't that hard. Don't click on it if you don't want to. Don't be mean. Awesome!

I know what this antifa shit means but don't get why anyone gives a fuck about it either way. My brain has a built in roadblock but is always wide open if you go around the side.

I don't know what that means. Just let people be.

[coffin_dodger]

82_28 said:

I know what this antifa shit means but don't get why anyone gives a fuck about it either way

I think it's quite important to understand that this 'antifa shit' is the opposing, driving force behind where we are ultimately headed. Sorry 82, I intend to challenge fanaticism wherever I see, just as AD is allowed. I get it that you like AD - maybe you should follow your own advice and "Don't click on it if you don't want to".

[NeonLX]

OK, for the duller folks in this place (namely, me)...can someone explain where we are ultimately headed?

I'm following this thread to the best of my ability and have become twisted in knots trying to understand...the piling on distracts me, as most things do because of adult ADD.

I'll start from the beginning again and see if I can ferret out what is happening, and...yeah.

[82_28]

82_28 said:

I know what this antifa shit means but don't get why anyone gives a fuck about it either way

I think it's quite important to understand that this 'antifa shit' is the opposing, driving force behind where we are ultimately headed. Sorry 82, I intend to challenge fanaticism wherever I see, just as AD is allowed. I get it that you like AD - maybe you should follow your own advice and "Don't click on it if you don't want to".

Because it's not going to affect me one way or the other. I know where I stand. Ain't no thang.

[Searcher08]

Surely we all know that not all rapists are queer bashers or racists- these come in all varieties and permutations. The really flimsy straw man being floated by y'all defends who? Racists, xenophobes and bigots first and foremost? Reactionaries in general? Those of the above that claim to be "fighting the power"? Maybe those of the above who hide their shit under a "neither Right nor Left" and/or "Rights" banner?

There are those who practice all of the above in various times and places, as they play a shell game that fools mostly those who desperately want to be fooled...

I felt sad reading this because I didnt grok how an intelligent well read person such as yourself engages in what you do. It lands with me like firing artillery shells into the dark and ignoring the Friendly Fire calls, but that is me.

Over the years I have been at RI, I observed a drastic change in your posting patterns, from a VERY wide range of RI-themed subjects (as in Jeff's book) and which often had YOUR take woven in, into a multiple overlapping Tumbler-esque "AntiFa-streams" (I use that description very carefully as a mix of text and images ie like a "lifestream").

My life during this time was often very circumscribed while being a carer, so I often spent a lot of "de-compression" time here. I noticed that once someone made an association that you really didn't like, such as I did with Annunaki (and David Icke), that resulted in a huge decrease in a huge permanent connection for you. It happened recently and very visibly between you and Wombat.

Periodically, I try and re-connect with you.
I guess I'm doing it again.

We were once years ago going to have a Marshall Rosenberg style NVC discussion, that we never got around to... takes two to say yes, and just one to say no...

What would you like to have happen at R.I.?

Personally? I would like much more High Strangeness in General Discussion.
More thought experiments and flexible thinking...
like the exercise that Jeff Wells suggested to the media (that Nordic posted).