Orlando / Pulse Mass Shooting Thread

[JackRiddler]

Thanks for kind words, Novem5er. And oh my god, I'm so sorry you had to go through that yourself. Sorry for your loss.

Given a dense crowd and the right weapon, the physical aspects are not astonishing. Again, speaking in theory. Same asshole with knife = you would have barely heard a story about an incident in Orlando. Even the same asshole with two pistols and unlimited clips = maybe six dead, maybe fewer..

Since you were speaking in theory it's easy to under estimate just how easy it would be to shoot dozens of people in a target dense enclosed space. Two fully loaded semi-auto handguns will allow even an amateur asshole to wreck enormous harm. Your estimate is way off, would have been easily many more than six. It's also easy to convert a Glock to full auto. Though that would be unwieldy for an amateur, this perp almost certainly was well practiced if he worked at a security firm. It would be quickly noticed if he practiced shooting full auto handguns at a gun range, but it's easy to find rural areas to target practice.

This jerkoff was well motivated, he would have found a means to kill no matter what.

You're such a straight shooter, karma! How many club-goers do you figure you could off with two pistols and unlimited clips?

Please go ahead and settle the question by building a data set. I'm pretty sure there are a significant number of cases that fit that description. I'll bet $10 that a cumulative study will find an average death rate in one-gunman, two-pistol, rampage killing cases of no more than 4, though some will be "easily more than that." I think UVA was one of those, possibly also the Montreal massacre of women, yet I submit the average will still be in low single digits. Also, if you ever do it, I bet you'll start wanting to exclude cases on the basis of the killer didn't equip himself with the right pieces for the job (thus inadvertantly illustrating part of the cultural problem).

So today, something like 35 or 40 people are dead solely because some asshole who didn't have enough brain to know where his own dick should go, and therefore felt compelled to murder people he didn't know, had a full assault rifle. (That's a carryable "machine gun," to us ignorant folk. You probably have categorical sophistry for why it isn't, I don't know.)

[Harvey]

Now that it's been revealed that the shooter had profiles on Grindr, Jack'd, and Adam4Adam, and that this information did not come from Rita Katz but from members of the gay community who had been contacted by the shooter, the element of this story that I'm finding most difficult to believe is that he even traveled to the Middle East. When did that happen, where did he go, and what is the proof?

Good point. As Jack said this story ought to be exploring and excoriating the most useless prejudice there is, instead it became about ISIS. We know the why. How?

Also, the phone calls. I watched the updates happening on Breiviks Facebook page while he was busy shooting kids on Utoya island. He clearly didn't make them but somebody did. I know that I know such things do happen.

What are the chances the calls are real?

In this case, what would be the dangers of simply lying about their existence? Who could prove otherwise? If faked, who had the means and opportunity to do it on the spot? Why take the risk? How might they be debunked?

[82_28]

Also who broke into his house when he went on this spree? His house was found broken into. His car was outside (his apartment) and had a NASA sticker on it and USMC as well.

[Novem5er]

I lost my mother-in-law to gun violence not two years back. It was terrible. My wife and I are still recovering emotionally.

...horrible ..very sorry to hear that....

Thank you. It gets a little better all the time. Two steps forward, one step back sort of thing. The actual trial starts this autumn, about two years to the date of the crime.

[PufPuf93]

I lost my mother-in-law to gun violence not two years back. It was terrible. My wife and I are still recovering emotionally. If someone just told me that it was fake?! It'd eat at me, too. One person I could just brush off, but when its thousands of internet trolls? It's just wrong.

Novem5er -

So sorry for this event.

I can see no good reason why individuals should be able to possess assault weapons capable of such carnage.

The murderer seems no more than an attention seeking suicide.

Confusion and personal unhappiness is no reason for such cruelty.

The tangled web of the shooter's father and employment by a mercenary outfit and having military / law enforcement paraphernalia and past interaction with the FBI seems too familiar.

The media, internet, politicians, and any quasi public figure who can tie to such an event and opine are in love with events like this and we, the consuming public, are all too willing to listen. No matter what the facts, no matter how simple or complex, the event is used in the media to mold opinion and exploit for sensational attention.

Seems to me that many individuals with weapon training no matter if ex-military or law enforcement or employees of mercenary corporations are ticking timelines.

Notice how I typed the above without mentioning radical Islam or LGBTs targeted as victims. I lean more towards targeting LGBT as a cause than radical Islam. Radical Islam being an impact booster by the shooter readily grasped by many as "cause" in initial reports (including ISIL).

[Novem5er]

I saw saw that a few more posters sent me some sympathy. I read them all, and I appreciate it all. I'm at the point now, nearly two years later, where I can mention it and talk about it without going into fits. I only bring it up here to show a little empathy towards the victims of this last weekend. People get shot. People die. It's horrible, no matter if the perpetrator is a lone gunman, a sleeper agent, or an ex-boyfriend.

My take on the shooter in question? He was a closet homosexual who hated himself, due to being raised in a culture where that is a mortal sin. I don't think he was very religious for several years of his life, but as his confusion and self-hatred grew, he turned to the religion that hounded him for comfort. Instead of comfort, however, he found only more hate. It seems to me he was a superficial jihadist, easily confusing different sects of Islam and not grasping anything of the greater teachings or culture, but he knew enough, and hated enough to turn radical and turn violent.

I don't find his G4S connections that interesting (yet). He was a rent-a-cop. So what?

So his father is an Afghani ex-pat with a Youtube channel and pictures with a few congressmen? So what? I could do the same on any random trip to D.C.

Now, I'm not saying there isn't anything there; just nothing that's convinced me yet! I say people keep digging. One thing that I can't understand yet, from a conspiracy standpoint, is what the motive would be.

Yet another mass shooting to push for gun control? It hasn't worked 13 times in a row, so try a 14th? I'm unconvinced. If this was targeting a Baptist pre-school, then you might get some soccer moms on board the gun-control train, but shooting up a bunch of Latino gays (mostly on both accounts)? I don't think that brings anybody new to the voter booths.

MORE likely, I see, is getting Liberals to finally jump on the Islamaphobe train. Usually it is Liberals defending Muslims, but since this weekend on Facebook, I've seen a lot of my Liberal friends walk back their feeling. "I'm having a hard time anymore NOT blaming the religion" is something that's been said over and over again. Not to mention the ISIS link (the illusion of one) . . . America has largely moved on from ISIS stories, but now?

I don't know. I feel for the victims and their families. I know that the violence was real. I also know that the political factions are and will be using this to further their agenda; just like 9/11, just like every other mass shooting out there. It's a tragedy for some, an opportunity for others.

[brekin]

I think this explains a lot, maybe everything:

Orlando gunman was 'regular' at gay club, patron says

ORLANDO, Fla. — As thousands in Orlando turned out to mourn 49 people killed inside a gay nightclub, federal investigators examined possible motives for the gunman while some who frequented the club say he was a regular who may have been conflicted about his own sexuality.
The White House and the FBI said 29-year-old Omar Mateen, an American-born Muslim, appears to be a "homegrown extremist" who had touted support not just for the Islamic State, but other radical groups that are its enemies.

"So far, we see no indication that this was a plot directed from outside the United States, and we see no indication that he was part of any kind of network," FBI Director James Comey said Monday. He said Mateen was clearly "radicalized," at least in part via the internet.
Despite Mateen's pledge of support to the Islamic State, other possible explanations emerged. His ex-wife said he suffered from mental illness. His Afghan-immigrant father suggested he may have acted out of anti-gay hatred, saying his son got angry recently about seeing two men kiss. But questions also emerged over whether Mateen was conflicted about his own sexuality.

Jim Van Horn, 71, said Mateen was a "regular" at the popular Pulse nightclub where he'd later take hostages and leave 49 dead in the worst mass shooting in modern U.S. history. "He was trying to pick up people. Men," Van Horn told The Associated Press late Monday outside the Parliament House, another gay club.
Van Horn, a retired pharmacist, said he met Mateen once, and the younger man talked about his ex-wife. But Van Horn said his friends soon "told me they didn't want me talking to him, because they thought he was a strange person."
Van Horn acknowledged that he didn't know Mateen well but said he suspects the massacre was less about Islamic extremism and more about a man conflicted about his sexuality.

"I think it's possible that he was trying to deal with his inner demons, of trying to get rid of his anger of homosexuality," said Van Horn, who lost three friends in the shooting. "It's really confusing to me. Because you can't change who you are. But if you pretend that you're different, then you may shoot up a gay bar."
The Orlando Sentinel and other news organizations quoted other regulars from Pulse who said they had seen Mateen there a number of times.
"Sometimes he would go over in the corner and sit and drink by himself, and other times he would get so drunk he was loud and belligerent," said Ty Smith, who remembered seeing Mateen inside at least a dozen times.

Mateen's ex-wife, Sitora Yusufiy, told CNN on Tuesday that he acknowledged enjoying clubs and nightlife, but she's not sure whether he had any homosexual tendencies.
"He confessed to me about his past ... that he very much enjoyed going to clubs and the nightlife, and there was a lot of pictures of him. ... I feel like it's a side of him or a part of him that he lived but probably didn't want everybody to know about," she said.
Asked whether she thinks her ex-husband was gay, Yusufiy said: "I don't know. He never personally or physically made any indications while we were together of that. But he did feel very strongly about homosexuality." She added that it's possible he hid feelings about being gay.

On Monday night, just about a mile from Pulse in downtown Orlando, thousands gathered for a vigil to support the victims and survivors. The names of the dead were read aloud. It was held on the lawn of Orlando's main performing arts venue, where mourners created a makeshift memorial of flowers, candles and notes for the victims.
Many said they felt compelled to attend because of the role Pulse played in their lives.
"It was a place that a young 20-year-old who wasn't openly gay felt safe for the first time," said Cathleen Daus, now 36, who worked at Pulse in her 20s. "Pulse gave me confidence, made me realize I was normal and so much like everyone else."

Some, including Jason Primar, who lost two friends in the massacre, released balloons that flew high above the downtown skyscrapers.
Primar went to Pulse at 2 a.m. Sunday, hoping for a good time with friends. Instead, he was greeted with gunshots and worries about those inside.
"I felt like I was over in Iraq," he said. He called his two friends inside; they never answered. He later discovered they died.
Comey said the FBI also was trying to determine whether Mateen had recently scouted Disney World as a potential target, as reported by People.com, which cited an unidentified federal law enforcement source.
"We're still working through that," Comey said.

He defended the bureau's handling of Mateen during two previous investigations into apparent terrorist sympathies. As for whether there was anything the FBI should have done differently, "so far, the honest answer is, I don't think so," Comey said.
Wielding an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle and a handgun, Mateen opened fire at Pulse early Sunday in a three-hour shooting rampage and hostage siege that ended with a SWAT team killing him. During the attack, he called 911 to profess allegiance to the Islamic State group.
At the White House, President Barack Obama said there is no clear evidence so far that Mateen was directed by the group, calling the attack an apparent example of "homegrown extremism." Obama will traveling to Orlando on Thursday to pay respect to the victims and stand in solidarity with the community, according to the White House.

More details of the massacre emerged, with Orlando police Chief John Mina saying Mateen was "cool and calm" during phone calls with negotiators. But Mina said he decided to send the SWAT team in and bash through a wall after Mateen holed up with hostages in a bathroom and talked about bombs and an explosive vest.
"We knew there would be an imminent loss of life," Mina said. As it turned out, Mateen had no explosives with him.
The tragedy hit the city's gay and Hispanic communities especially hard. Sunday was Latino Night at the club.

"As the names come out, they are overwhelmingly Latino and Hispanic names," said Christina Hernandez, a Hispanic activist. "These were not just victims of the LBGT community but of the Hispanic community, as well. This was senseless bloodshed."
Five of the wounded were reported in grave condition, meaning the death toll could rise. A call has gone out for blood donations.
Mateen's grasp of the differences between Islamic extremist groups appeared shaky.

During three calls with 911 dispatchers, Mateen not only professed allegiance to the Islamic State but also expressed solidarity with a suicide bomber from the Syrian rebel group Nusra Front, and a few years ago he claimed connections to Hezbollah, too — both ISIS enemies, according to Comey.
The FBI became aware of Mateen in 2013 when co-workers reported that the private security guard claimed to have family connections to al-Qaida and to be a member of Hezbollah, too, Comey said. He was also quoted as saying he hoped law enforcement would raid his apartment and assault his wife and child so that he could martyr himself.

The FBI launched a 10-month preliminary investigation, following Mateen, reviewing his communications and questioning him, the FBI chief said. Mateen claimed he made the remarks in anger because co-workers were teasing him and discriminating against him as a Muslim, and the FBI eventually closed the case, Comey said.
His name surfaced again as part of another investigation into the Nusra Front bomber. The FBI found Mateen and the man had attended the same mosque and knew each other casually, but the investigation turned up "no ties of any consequence," Comey said.
Mateen was added to a terror watch list in 2013 when he was investigated, but was taken off it soon after the matter was closed, according to Comey.

People who are in that database are not automatically barred from buying guns. Mateen purchased his weapons in June, long after his removal from the list.
The Islamic State's radio hailed the attack and called Mateen "one of the soldiers of the caliphate in America." But it gave no indication the group planned or knew of the attack beforehand.
Counterterrorism experts have been warning in the past few years about the danger of so-called lone wolf attackers who act in sympathy with extremist groups but aren't directed by them.

Mateen's father, Seddique Mir Mateen, said the massacre was "the act of a terrorist," and added: "I apologize for what my son did. I am as sad and mad as you guys are."
He wouldn't go into details about his son's religious or political views, saying he didn't know. Asked whether he missed his son, he said: "I don't miss anything about him. What he did was against humanity."

-- The Associated Press

http://www.oregonlive.com/today/index.s ... aj-story-1

[FourthBase]

We need to thank this exceptional asshole for possibly helping to keep the focus in this case where it belongs: anti-gay, exterminationist hatred, not "radical Islamism."

If those dead gay clubgoers had gone on a big gay group trip to Saudi Arabia, Iran, Yemen, or Afghanistan they would've wound up no less dead, except their executions would've been official state business. Several entire nations which function as giant collective Omar Mateens. You were saying?

As for the body count if it were two pistols and unlimited clips, Jack, you seem to be pulling that discrepancy of 35 to 40 completely out of your ass. First, he did kill some of the victims with a handgun. Second, it's a packed nightclub, the victims were fish in a barrel as one witness put it, he could've killed a shitload of people with just a single fucking shotgun or revolver. Third, he patroled the place and re-shot wounded victims, which would've ensured a high body count no matter the weapon. Fourth, what kind of body count do you think there'd have been if he had exploded a couple of pressure cooker bombs instead?

[FourthBase]

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/m ... /85860320/

Bouncer saves up to 70 people by opening a door. Hero. Curiously, he's a Marine with an Arab name.

[stickdog99]

MORE likely, I see, is getting Liberals to finally jump on the Islamaphobe train. Usually it is Liberals defending Muslims, but since this weekend on Facebook, I've seen a lot of my Liberal friends walk back their feeling. "I'm having a hard time anymore NOT blaming the religion" is something that's been said over and over again. Not to mention the ISIS link (the illusion of one) . . . America has largely moved on from ISIS stories, but now?

If DU's Skinner box is any indication, you are definitely onto something here.

[Karmamatterz]

Jack wrote:

You're such a straight shooter, karma! How many club-goers do you figure you could off with two pistols and unlimited clips?

Please go ahead and settle the question by building a data set. I'm pretty sure there are a significant number of cases that fit that description. I'll bet $10 that a cumulative study will find an average death rate in one-gunman, two-pistol, rampage killing cases of no more than 4, though some will be "easily more than that." I think UVA was one of those, possibly also the Montreal massacre of women, yet I submit the average will still be in low single digits. Also, if you ever do it, I bet you'll start wanting to exclude cases on the basis of the killer didn't equip himself with the right pieces for the job (thus inadvertantly illustrating part of the cultural problem).

So today, something like 35 or 40 people are dead solely because some asshole who didn't have enough brain to know where his own dick should go, and therefore felt compelled to murder people he didn't know, had a full assault rifle. (That's a carryable "machine gun," to us ignorant folk. You probably have categorical sophistry for why it isn't, I don't know.)

No thanks, not taking your rather impolite and dark chum bait of a question.

Not building a data set, but some quick research shows much of what you write to reasonably accurate, for a casual Internet forum conversation. There were some stark examples of where handguns were used for large number of deaths. Virginia Tech being the worst. Further examples pasted below where there tended to be a higher number of victims with handguns used. Apparently handguns are the most frequently used type of gun and typically death toll is in the single digits.

What 4th Base said, fish in barrel. A enclosed space with people tripping, being trampled etc...would probably make it easier to for the killer. I'm sure there are experts in the FBI and other areas of LE that would provide more info, but doubtful they would want to comment on RI.

https://www.revealnews.org/article-lega ... -handguns/

https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2014/s ... 0-and-2013

https://www.cga.ct.gov/2013/rpt/2013-R-0057.htm


April 16, 2007

Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University (known as “Virginia Tech”) in Blacksburg, Virginia

32

Walther P22 semi-automatic pistol, .22 caliber, and Glock Model 19 semi-automatic pistol, 9 mm caliber


November 5, 2009


2009 Fort Hood Shooting
Weapons FN Five-seven pistol Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum revolver
Deaths 13
Non-fatal injuries 33 (including the perpetrator)
Perpetrator Nidal Hasan

August 3, 2010

Hartford Beer Distributor in Manchester, Connecticut

Nine

Two Ruger SR9 semi-automatic pistols, 9 mm caliber


April 3, 2009

Immigration center in Binghamton, New York

13

Beretta 92FS Vertec semi-automatic pistol, 9 mm caliber, and Beretta Px4 semi-automatic pistol, .45 caliber


July 29, 1999

Momentum Securities and the All-Tech Investment Group in Atlanta, Georgia

12, nine with firearms

Hammer; Colt 1911A1 semi-automatic pistol, .45 caliber; Glock Model 17 semi-automatic pistol, 9 mm caliber; H&R Revolver pistol, .22 caliber; and Raven MP-25 semi-automatic pistol, .25 caliber


I suppose if you didn't like the reply and where the discussion went then perhaps don't bring up such topics that leave much to speculation and hundreds of variables that really none of us could ever know. There is no right or wrong aspect of this to examine, or not. Its all just a messed up tragic situation.

[82_28]

Here's one thing to keep in mind.

It is always amateur hour in a club that size. Nobody notices shit. Bouncer and bartender's job to note what is going on. If it is that packed it is next to impossible. If nobody was working the door still at last call, I sense crazy lawsuits from that fact.

I don't know how Florida cities do it, but dude(s) stay by the door until everyone is out and nobody else can come in. Everyone gets frisked etc.

Thus why I suspect he/they had the weapons stashed. If the story is that some of the survivors and victims hid out in closets (no pun there just sounds like it) they must have been unlocked.

I had a friend who opened a big now defunct club in Seattle and I went down to check it out before they opened for the kaching time at night. I could have waltzed in with assault rifles around 4PM at that time, put them somewhere and got in scot free. Nobody was there, the staff were just setting up. Cocaine and alcohol are obviously huge. My girlfriend bartended there and on the rare occasion I would go down to say hi, everyone was out of their minds on the above intoxicants with many, many people not paying attention to anything.

Lawsuit-o'clock.

[Harvey]

Also who broke into his house when he went on this spree? His house was found broken into. His car was outside (his apartment) and had a NASA sticker on it and USMC as well.

Who. And when? And why?

[Harvey]

Here's one thing to keep in mind.

It is always amateur hour in a club that size. Nobody notices shit. Bouncer and bartender's job to note what is going on. If it is that packed it is next to impossible. If nobody was working the door still at last call, I sense crazy lawsuits from that fact.

I don't know how Florida cities do it, but dude(s) stay by the door until everyone is out and nobody else can come in. Everyone gets frisked etc.

Thus why I suspect he/they had the weapons stashed. If the story is that some of the survivors and victims hid out in closets (no pun there just sounds like it) they must have been unlocked.

I had a friend who opened a big now defunct club in Seattle and I went down to check it out before they opened for the kaching time at night. I could have waltzed in with assault rifles around 4PM at that time, put them somewhere and got in scot free. Nobody was there, the staff were just setting up. Cocaine and alcohol are obviously huge. My girlfriend bartended there and on the rare occasion I would go down to say hi, everyone was out of their minds on the above intoxicants with many, many people not paying attention to anything.

Lawsuit-o'clock.

More good questions.

[82_28]

Another thing to keep in mind as far as my suspicion of the weapons being stashed and the bouncers were doing their jobs which they possibly were (I have no idea), was this was a club of people scantily clad in a hot city. If bouncers were there it would have been stopped immediately. No bouncers or stashed.