The Brexit thread

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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby 82_28 » Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:06 pm

You know, Fourth Base, I wouldn't give fuck if I actually met a "commie". That's their deal. Not mine. Just like a Christian, Mormon, Muslim, Jehova's Witness, Scientologist etc, they would never be able to reach me, convert me, whatever. I would just reach out, listen to them and say, yeah, no not interested. I have zero fear of "commies". Communism, I am afraid, 4B isn't a thing. It is nothing more than an epithet.
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby FourthBase » Tue Jun 21, 2016 5:35 pm

82_28 » 21 Jun 2016 14:06 wrote:You know, Fourth Base, I wouldn't give fuck if I actually met a "commie". That's their deal. Not mine. Just like a Christian, Mormon, Muslim, Jehova's Witness, Scientologist etc, they would never be able to reach me, convert me, whatever. I would just reach out, listen to them and say, yeah, no not interested. I have zero fear of "commies".


When did I say we should be afraid of Jack? I'm just explaining why his thought process is despicable. It's because he's a commie.

Communism, I am afraid, 4B isn't a thing. It is nothing more than an epithet.


That'll be news to the world's communists!
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby NeonLX » Tue Jun 21, 2016 5:46 pm

4B, For the less intelligent among us (namely me), could you describe how Jack's decision-making process is despicable? I'm not being a dick here, I just want to make sure I know what the despicable aspects of it are, from your point of view.

Thanks.
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby FourthBase » Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:44 pm

NeonLX » 21 Jun 2016 16:46 wrote:4B, For the less intelligent among us (namely me), could you describe how Jack's decision-making process is despicable? I'm not being a dick here, I just want to make sure I know what the despicable aspects of it are, from your point of view.

Thanks.


To review:

JackRiddler » 21 Jun 2016 08:06 wrote:This is rough! I wouldn't want this choice. (Who would?) Of course it's binary nonsense. Distorted democracy at work, as usual. As a Greek, what's not to like about a blow against the EU that might facilitate Greece's escape from its stranglehold down the line? But the main force in the leave coalition is obviously not "left" but resides with the worst people politically, who will be empowered to go hog-wild and treat it as a big win for racism and anti-immigration. UK will lose the EU limits on hypercapitalism (which it has, alongside the neoliberal management) and no doubt go straight into TTIP and worse. I can see the argument that Cameron would want it, if only it didn't spell the end of Cameron's tenure. And Boris? I'll defer to the smart people here from the UK who are arguing against Brexit. Also, while personal impressions shouldn't over-figure, Corbyn's a lot easier for me trust than... Sanders!


Which of those three words is inapplicable? At least I'm conceding him a soul. Not a trivial concession, some have none. A propagandist's soul rather than a truthseeker's, but still.

You're right, I do feel contempt for Jack, deep contempt. Used to feel deep respect. Not so much of that anymore. Case in point, above. The gist as I perceive it: "Brexit could be a miracle of popular dissent that eventually leads to freedom from EU tyranny for my beloved, beleaguered, hopeless homeland, but I'd rather not see any right wing assholes ever feel confident and I'd rather not see a single state reject the economic control of a centralized international government and I'd rather follow the lead of the leader with the purest ideological bona fides." Am I wrong, lol?


To repeat: Am I wrong?
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby Nordic » Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:15 pm

Whether you're wrong or not ... How does that make him a "commie'?
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:50 pm

Commie is whatever FB calls a commie. Varying definitions of the term are all a cover and you shouldn't fall for it. Commie is commie.

I've got no problem with being called it, under some of the definitions, but also would not mind being called liberal under some of the many (often conflicting) definitions of liberal. Or even conservative -- insofar as many existing institutions often have their reason and contribution to the social fabric, and are not easily overturned in a way that makes anything better for people. For example, neoliberalism encourages a lot of understandable clinging to the prior and still partly extant "Keynesian" order, so in a way, the old liberalism is conservative.

Conversely there are also some radicals whom I would eschew, such as the fascist mob FB apparently would like to see take over England and maybe Wales -- given that Scotland leaving the UK on a second independence go-around will be a likely consequence of a Brexit win.

Otherwise I'm happy with anyone reading what I wrote back there that got 4B so excited, before comparing it to his demented translation.
Last edited by JackRiddler on Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby FourthBase » Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:07 pm

It's not the translation that's demented.
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Jun 21, 2016 11:31 pm

As you wish. Your tit to my tat. Guess that leaves it to our readers.
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I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby conniption » Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:05 am

Washington's Blog

It’s Not Just the UK – Widespread Support for EU Referendums Seen Across the Continent


Posted on June 21, 2016

Submitted by Michael Krieger via Liberty Blitzkrieg blog,

Image

Actions have consequences, and people can only be pushed so far before they snap. I believe the Paris terror attacks will be a major catalyst that will ultimately usher in nationalist type governments in many parts of Europe, culminating in an end of the EU as we know it and a return to true nation-states. Although I think a return to regional government and democracy is what Europeans need and deserve, the way in which it will come about, and the types of governments we could see emerge, are unlikely to be particularly enlightened or democratic after the dust has settled.

My thoughts and prayers go out to all the victims of these horrific events, but the Paris attacks didn’t happen in a vacuum. The people of Europe have already become increasingly resentful against the EU, something which is not debatable at this point. This accurate perception of an undemocratic, technocratic Brussels-led EU dictatorship was further solidified earlier this year after the Greek people went to the polls and voted for one thing, only to be instructed that their vote doesn’t actually matter...


continued...
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby American Dream » Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:33 pm

There Is No Left Exit

We shouldn’t have illusions about transforming the EU from below. But a Leave vote would only strengthen the Right.

by Ed Rooksby

Image
UK Independence Party leader Nigel Farage during the May launch event for his party's campaign for Britain to leave the European Union.


Tomorrow, the United Kingdom will vote on whether to leave the European Union or to remain a member. This historic ballot could fundamentally shape Britain’s future — and that of Europe as a whole.

Two unholy alliances have driven mainstream debate on the referendum. The Remain forces are dominated by the Britain Stronger in Europe coalition, which comprises a substantial chunk of the Conservative Party cohering around David Cameron and George Osborne, together with much of the Labour Party, the Liberal Democrats, and the Greens. Leading sections of British capital also back Remain.

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has come out clearly for Remain. But he has wisely kept his distance from the Tory-dominated coalition — his support is widely seen to be lukewarm, at best. Figures from Labour’s center and right have been most actively involved — and have looked the most comfortable — in the “Stronger In” campaign.

The Vote Leave campaign, led by figures from the Eurosceptic hard right of the Tories such as Boris Johnson and Michael Gove, dominates the other side. Nearly half of Tory members of parliament (MPs) and probably the large majority of its activist and membership base also support Brexit. They are working with a smattering of Labour politicians and big business backers to promote the Leave vote.

The right-wing UK Independence Party (UKIP) is also involved in Vote Leave. But its leader, Nigel Farage — jockeying for position on the British right with his Tory rivals — is more closely associated with the competing Leave.EU campaign. (There does seem to have been some rapprochement between the two campaigns — and between Farage and Johnson in particular — recently.)

Right-wing forces are leading both sides of the Brexit debate, and thus the debate’s terms pivot on a largely neoliberal terrain: economic issues, like trade and investment, situated almost entirely in terms of what’s best for big capital.

Leave’s exaggerated claims about EU laws superseding “our own” often raises the issue of British “sovereignty.” They have pitched this issue in terms of border control — and indeed, immigration more and more dominates the referendum debate.

Although Leave made immigration the centerpiece of its campaign, the Remain camp has certainly helped. The mainstream Remain boosters are desperate to avoid appearing too soft on migration.

But Leave’s focus on immigration has been relentless, plumbing new depths last Thursday with the release of a UKIP campaign poster that many compared to Nazi propaganda.

In a terrible coincidence, the launch of this poster — clearly designed to whip up xenophobic hatred — came only a few hours before the brutal killing of Labour MP and Remain supporter Jo Cox. Many commentators have connected the murder to the divisive, anti-immigrant, and nationalist tenor of recent British political discourse. The suspect has links with the far right, and gave his name in court as “death to traitors, freedom for Britain.”

These are dark times in British politics.

But even though neoliberals and the Right control the mainstream debate, left-wing Remain and Leave campaigns are also being fought — though sadly both are marginal.

The Left Exit (Lexit) campaign — an alliance between the Socialist Workers Party and other small revolutionary groups — argues that withdrawal from the pro-austerity, anti-democratic “bosses’ club” of the European Union would represent a serious blow to the interests of dominant sections of the British capital, and to European elites as well. It would also weaken David Cameron’s government, opening up opportunities for workers’ struggle in the United Kingdom.

Lexit’s radical counterpart is the Another Europe is Possible (AEiP) campaign. The collection of left forces — which include Momentum, the activist organization of mostly young Labour Party members set up to support Corbyn — promote a radical, internationalist vision of a Europe-wide left movement that could democratize and transform EU structures from within.

Another Europe?

Though I’m sympathetic to AEiP, I’m not particularly convinced that it could accomplish what it promises.

For one thing, the coalition tends to downplay the EU’s close ties to national and trans-national capitalist accumulation imperatives. Among other things, the EU is where these imperatives are transformed into coherent strategies to organize and embed the hegemony of dominant sections of European capital. This is why it has become one of the main vectors for the imposition of neoliberal and austerity measures across the continent.

The AEiP approach tends to miss, too, how the European Union manifests and expresses the unequal power dynamics between member states.

In addition, they overlook how EU institutions are relatively insulated from popular pressures in a way that national states cannot be if they are to maintain their legitimacy. The unelected European Commission wields huge power, and the virtually ornamental European Parliament — and indeed the absence of a European demos to speak of — cannot balance it.

Also, the European Union might function, partially, to bolster national state legitimacy: the union takes responsibility for neoliberal reforms “imposed from without” that state elites — who helped draw up the measures in the first place — can then disavow.

Finally, the pro-Remain left softens how dismantling internal EU borders has been paralleled by a simultaneous strengthening of external ones. The relative freedom of movement within the European Union has been bought at the expense of the exclusion of those beyond the borders of “Fortress Europe,” including the thousands of migrants who have drowned in the Mediterranean.

So the European Union does not seem like fertile terrain for leftist transformation. The pro-Remain is far too sanguine about the social goods — actual or potential — that membership offers. We should have no illusions about the union.

Denying the Right a Victory

The strongest arguments for a left Remain lie elsewhere. The troubling fact is that while staying in the European Union is certainly a horrible idea, the prospect of withdrawal seems, as things currently stand, much worse.

The case for a left Remain should pivot on a sober assessment of the balance of social and political forces at play and the likely consequences of a victory for Leave. It should rest fundamentally on the observation that the existing Brexit campaign is led by reactionary and dangerous arguments, ideas, and political forces. Lexit is simply not on the agenda.

The hard right has dominated the Leave campaign from the start, shaping the entire terrain of the debate. This is largely because the vote was Cameron’s panicked concession to the right wing of his party and its voter base. As Bertie Russell has pointed out, the political leverage generated by UKIP and its successful construction of a narrative that blames deteriorating living standards on an “open door” immigration policy — which, it asserts, is a condition of continuing EU membership — motivated Cameron to call the referendum.

Indeed, UKIP’s narrative has come increasingly to define the key political terms of the referendum. And so, a vote for Lexit is still a vote for Brexit — and all the xenophobic fearmongering the debate has produced.

The referendum — like any other vote — is not an abstract, static question hovering above political struggle and cannot be understood separately from the context that frames and shapes it. The prevailing interpretation of the issues at stake — not merely the literal wording of the referendum question itself, which, of course, says nothing about immigration — is what matters. And the hard right has been extraordinarily successful in constructing this prevailing interpretation.

They have, as James Butler has rightly suggested, transformed the referendum into a proxy plebiscite on immigration. Butler goes on to argue that most of the political class, media, and a large swath of the electorate would understand Leave’s victory in these terms.

Whatever the intentions of Lexit voters, they will place a cross in the same box on the ballot paper as everyone else voting Leave. Their votes will be amalgamated into the same mass when they are counted. Referendums don’t register subjective preferences.

Considering how badly British businesses need migrant workers, it might be argued that foreign nationals working in the United Kingdom won’t face many consequences in the case of Brexit. But Pete Green correctly argues that this “crudely economistic, politically naïve claim” fails to take seriously how political discourse has serious concrete effects.

EU migrants in Britain are decidedly anxious about the prospect of a Leave victory. The potential victims of any political consolidation of anti-immigrant feeling go far beyond their number (about two million), encompassing all migrants and indeed anyone who isn’t white — because an anti-immigrant climate is also a climate of generalized racism.


Continues at: https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/06/brex ... migration/
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby slimmouse » Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:29 pm

I want myself back.

Is there a party out there that stands for me lol?

As a famous lunatic once said, "the people have outsheeped the sheep"

Its very hard to argue with that.
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby stillrobertpaulsen » Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:46 pm

Empire gets what Empire wants.

Someone asked me about Brexit in the context of my recent blog post where I hypothesized the restructuring/dismantling of NATO. I definitely think this is something the overworld salivates over - the endgame being the dissolution of the EU. No less than Alan Greenspan tipped his hand last year:

Alan Greenspan: The euro is doomed
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby FourthBase » Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:26 pm

stillrobertpaulsen » 22 Jun 2016 19:46 wrote:Empire gets what Empire wants.

Someone asked me about Brexit in the context of my recent blog post where I hypothesized the restructuring/dismantling of NATO. I definitely think this is something the overworld salivates over - the endgame being the dissolution of the EU. No less than Alan Greenspan tipped his hand last year:

Alan Greenspan: The euro is doomed


The Empire must have wanted the EU, then, otherwise it wouldn't exist, right? Was the creation of the EU an irresistible popular mandate? No. So why does it exist. Who wanted it?
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby stillrobertpaulsen » Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:32 pm

FourthBase » Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:26 pm wrote:
stillrobertpaulsen » 22 Jun 2016 19:46 wrote:Empire gets what Empire wants.

Someone asked me about Brexit in the context of my recent blog post where I hypothesized the restructuring/dismantling of NATO. I definitely think this is something the overworld salivates over - the endgame being the dissolution of the EU. No less than Alan Greenspan tipped his hand last year:

Alan Greenspan: The euro is doomed


The Empire must have wanted the EU, then, otherwise it wouldn't exist, right? Was the creation of the EU an irresistible popular mandate? No. So why does it exist. Who wanted it?


Sorry to be lazy with my terms, that would be the American Empire, which Greenspan has been an integral figure in. The EU exists because of the desire to counter US dollar hegemony among European elites. Now, why does NATO exist? Obviously it was created to counter the Soviet threat post-WWII. But I believe, as does runesoup, there was a second, but equally important reason: by creating NATO, "Washington forestalled the emergence in Western Europe of an autonomous grouping of states that could have competed with the United States. It should be recalled that the territory of the United States itself, which essentially established unilateral military control over the allies, is not included in NATO’s zone of responsibility."

To be clear, when I say "Empire" I don't want to make it sound like some monolithic entity where a cadre of Darth Vaders snap their fingers in unison for stormtroopers to carry out their will. I've no doubt there are some European elites who genuinely questioned whether the EU should exist, just as I'm sure some American elites might challenge Greenspan's perspective. I'm just musing on what I see as the predominant direction of how things are shaping up.
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