After School Satan

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Re: After School Satan

Postby guruilla » Tue Aug 02, 2016 4:53 pm

IMO, Dr. Evil missed the point of 82_82’s anecdote by a mile. As do these ASS-ites if they are sincerely trying to use Satanic imagery & principles to show how silly Evangelicals are, and to prove that rationalism conquers all. These images, words, beliefs, and all the rest come from somewhere. Whether we call it the archetypal realm, another dimension, or the human (collective) unconscious, whatever the reservoir actually IS, it’s vastly older, deeper, and larger than the gossamer-like veneer of scientistic rationalism, or so-called secularism, that’s being promoted by these . . . whoever they are.

So whatever’s being stirred in the unconscious, invoked, evoked, by the imagery in the video, by 82’s hoodie, or by the “barbaric” names of Satan, Lucifer, Beelzebub, and so on, drives people into real forms of behavior that have real consequences.

This latest manifestation of the “satanic” makes me think about how Satanism is probably the least defined and least understood of religions, and how little we know about its practitioners. Do they worship Satan or do they only worship scientistic rationality which “Satan” is a joke-symbol of? Or both, or sometimes one & sometimes the other? Or, as I think was the case with Crowley, do they claim to be approaching the subject matter scientifically and rationally, when in fact they are being driven by exactly the same sort of religious fervor which they despise in evangelical Christians?

Is Richard Dawkins a Satanist (or only a satanist)?

The Christian view of Satanism is as lacking in nuance or complexity as the satanist view of Christianity (as if there were only one kind!). In the simplest terms, from what I can glean, Christianity is (supposed to be) about submission to the divine principle, surrendering one’s own will to God’s. Satanism is (supposed to be) the opposite, the rejection of any power that is not oneself, autonomy, self-determination, and so on. Since Christians can only view Satanism through their own lens, they presume it is about worship of Satan as a deity. And since I’d guess many if not most (if not all) Satanists are Christians rebelling against their programming, they’d be right (Crowley evidently worshipped Aiwaz and called him the devil, etc., etc). Secular-type satanists, the scientistic, Dawkins-types, seem to view Christianity through that lens and so they only see its contradictions and fanaticism, but fail to see the kernel of truth in it, that serving the constructed ego identity really IS akin to devil-worship (a destructive path both to self and others), and that only by surrendering to the greater part of our being (what is unconscious and so gets dressed up in religious iconography) will we ever become whole.

One thing seems clear to me: satanists (or Satanists) can only be this brazen, and this effective, in selling their religion to parents because the reality of ritual abuse has been so well debunked. If these are really secular satanists having a bit of a laugh while seriously intending to restore reason to American education, they are also the sort of people who would scoff at the idea of ritual abuse or that Satanism as an actual religion has anything truly diabolic about it. Would an organization which knew the truth about ritual abuse promote itself in this way, unless they were complicit with it, or at least approving of it? Who on earth would want to associate with something that horrific except real “Satanists” (who may not worship Satan either, for all we know)?

And what about the parents who, I presume, are going along with this and thinking it’s a cool idea? Are they open to the idea that satanism is just another kooky religion and that, in its true form, it is all about freedom from dogma and rationality, self-determination and empowerment, or whatever it is being sold here? If so it can only be because they are clueless about the reality of Satanic practices throughout history and chalk it all up to Christian hallucinations.
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Re: After School Satan

Postby DrEvil » Tue Aug 02, 2016 5:58 pm

My impression is that most Satanists don't actually believe in Satan (or God) but use it as a symbol to troll the traditional Christian value system (plus, it's "edgy" and "cool" to be a Satanist. "Look at me rebelling!"). Whether you think that's good or bad depends on your viewpoint.

I'm one of those horrible secularists who don't think Satan is in any way, shape or form real,or based on anything real, so for me this is a group of people holding up a mirror to the Christian's hypocrisy and nothing more.

It could easily be done without the Satan baggage, but as a PR ploy it works pretty well, with the added bonus of having Christians trying to explain why their religion is OK, but your religion is bad.

They could have just said they were secularists or atheists wanting to teach critical thinking, but wouldn't have gotten anything close to the attention they're getting now.
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Re: After School Satan

Postby OP ED » Tue Aug 02, 2016 6:14 pm

"satanic practices throughout history" ?

Such as?

You should avoid using words like "we" when describing how little you know about something. Fact is you've been able to check out books about satanism by satanists for like fifty years now. If you don't know what they believe, that's entirely on you at this point.
The same could be said in regards to the third hand assumptions you're making about Crowley's beliefs. Dude wasn't shy and he wrote thousands of pages describing the complexities of his system during his lifetime.

(He was by no means a secularist, he merely wished to apply modern scientific empiricism to his occult experiments)

I'm also not certain what you meant by "drives people into real forms of behavior that have real consequences"...

Such as what? Also when did this happen and who did it happen to? I mean last time I looked at the figures it definitely seemed obvious that in terms of sheer bodycounts, the abrahamic religions were winning the race by a long mile. (Even in the bible itself, a genocide gets justified every dozen pages)

I mean I would be surprised if there weren't some actual devil worshippers out there somewhere doing standard issue crazy people stuff, but that doesn't make them less crazy because they happen to believe in figures from folklore.

The same is often said of supposedly Christian political figures who bomb people on Saturday and get forgiveness on Sunday. You say something like "well that's not what Jesus actually advocated" but you're not so quick to give the same benefit of doubt to self-described Satanists. To me, if I were a believer of whatever sort, and there was this guy who told you to submit to your slavers, cast out the different, regard your wives and children as (his) property pay tribute, make sacrifices, never question or, or, or be threatened with an eternity at guantanamo (except on fire) ....AND this guy was everywhere bragging (and asking others to brag) about having his own child executed just so he could feel better about how his other children behave...well, frankly, I just might vote for the Adversary.
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Re: After School Satan

Postby 82_28 » Tue Aug 02, 2016 6:15 pm

Any of you guys read this by Elaine Pagels? I don't remember shit about it since I read it when it came out in 1996. But I remember that it was good. That's something, right? Anyway, check it out if you haven't.

https://www.amazon.com/Origin-Satan-Chr ... 0679731180

From the religious historian whose The Gnostic Gospels won both the National Book Award and the National Book Critics Circle Award comes a dramatic interpretation of Satan and his role on the Christian tradition. With magisterial learning and the elan of a born storyteller, Pagels turns Satan's story into an audacious exploration of Christianity's shadow side, in which the gospel of love gives way to irrational hatreds that continue to haunt Christians and non-Christians alike.


But don't order it from Amazon -- speaking of evil. It's probably in your library.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: After School Satan

Postby OP ED » Tue Aug 02, 2016 6:32 pm

It's pretty good.

Its my favorite book to loan to my christian friends.
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Re: After School Satan

Postby guruilla » Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:28 pm

OP ED » Tue Aug 02, 2016 6:14 pm wrote:You should avoid using words like "we" when describing how little you know about something. Fact is you've been able to check out books about satanism by satanists for like fifty years now. If you don't know what they believe, that's entirely on you at this point.

Except that satanism isn't a formalized religion that has a history that can be tracked in the way other religions can be. It doesn't even have a formalized doctrine, unless we only want to go back a few decades and attribute one to Crowley or Anton LaVey or whoever. Add to that that, if Satanism in some of its manifestations does include ritual abuse and ritual sacrifice, none of that is going make it into the log-books of practicing Satanists, for obvious reasons (including those of AC). Add to that that, if Satanism did or does exist as a formal religion that entails ritual abuse & sacrifice, etc, then practicing Satanists are not likely to self-identify as such, at least until such a time as it can all pass as a secularist joke against Christians and/or a rationalist-based religion (whatever-TF that is)....

There's a popular view that everyone here has heard that the Papacy is a front for a satanic religion, or the Nazis, and so on, and so forth. So it depends what we mean by Satanism, but certainly the Inquisition would seem a lot closer to satanic (accusatory & punishing) precepts than to Christian ones, allowing that one is the shadow of the other.

As for what written material there is about Satanic beliefs, I think the seemingly benign philosophical premises, the ones I am familiar with, are quite consistent with the darker more destructive ritualistic aspects, and i would say the same of Crowley's writings ~ speaking as someone who has embodied these same tenets to some degree and for a large part of my life, not as some armchair dilettante.

I'm also not certain what you meant by "drives people into real forms of behavior that have real consequences"...

If people believe certain things they are likely to act on their beliefs. Scientific rationalism combined with self-worship is a recipe for unimaginable kinds depravity, as we've seen in recent history, and whether or not we pin a Satanic label on any of it.

Such as what? Also when did this happen and who did it happen to?

It would be more useful if you can present the examples of benign satanic communities living in empathy and autonomy and mutual respect. There aren't any that I know of, and the closest would be groups like LaVey's Church or The Proces, or the OTO, all of which have been persuasively (to me) linked to intelligence programs that overlap with serial murders and the like, so... Otherwise, there aren't any satanic cliques recorded in history that I am aware of. Instead we, or I, have to deduce who might be living and expostulating Satanic principles, such as Marquis de Sade or Crowley, and deduce how much they acted on their philosophies and what were the results.
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Re: After School Satan

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:33 pm

OP ED » Tue Aug 02, 2016 5:14 pm wrote:I'm also not certain what you meant by "drives people into real forms of behavior that have real consequences"...

Such as what? Also when did this happen and who did it happen to?


Is that a fucking joke? Not asking because I'm offended, but because I'm laughing so hard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: ... the_occult

How many rapist serial killers need to reference the Dark Lord before it's a pattern? (Asking for a friend.)
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Re: After School Satan

Postby backtoiam » Tue Aug 02, 2016 8:38 pm

wombat said

(Asking for a friend.)


wombat taught me what that meant. i love that saying. i never knew what it meant until wombat taught me. I sorta like it. Problem is, I tried it on some crackers and they all looked at me like I had grown a third eye because they didn't understand it either. So it is..., so it goes....

I thought about trying to become a juggalo but fuck it. My wardrobe is all to 80's and I would have totally suit up in new polyester without the flair pants and big collars.....old age sux

eat a disco biscuit and get the groove on..........



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Re: After School Satan

Postby PufPuf93 » Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:25 pm

82_28 » Tue Aug 02, 2016 3:15 pm wrote:Any of you guys read this by Elaine Pagels? I don't remember shit about it since I read it when it came out in 1996. But I remember that it was good. That's something, right? Anyway, check it out if you haven't.

https://www.amazon.com/Origin-Satan-Chr ... 0679731180

From the religious historian whose The Gnostic Gospels won both the National Book Award and the National Book Critics Circle Award comes a dramatic interpretation of Satan and his role on the Christian tradition. With magisterial learning and the elan of a born storyteller, Pagels turns Satan's story into an audacious exploration of Christianity's shadow side, in which the gospel of love gives way to irrational hatreds that continue to haunt Christians and non-Christians alike.


But don't order it from Amazon -- speaking of evil. It's probably in your library.


I went through an Elaine Pagels phase.

Gnostic Gospels (for insight regards PKD writings to start)
Adam and Eve and the Serpent
The Origin of Satan
Beyond Belief

I gave Beyond Belief to my sister when our father was in hospice and my Promise Keeper Chief of Police BIL told me never to talk to my sister about religion again. And in fact, I have not seen nor talked to my sister for over 10 years. Their "religion" being an excuse to for corruption, greed, and skewed moral actions.

Highly recommend anything by Pagels, granted those four books are what I have read.
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Re: After School Satan

Postby MacCruiskeen » Wed Aug 03, 2016 6:58 am

Great posts, guruilla.

guruilla wrote:If people believe certain things they are likely to act on their beliefs. Scientific rationalism combined with self-worship is a recipe for unimaginable kinds depravity, as we've seen in recent history, and whether or not we pin a Satanic label on any of it.


Right. On a banal everyday level, though, the results are not "unimaginable kinds of depravity" but very boring and predictable kinds of selfishness, smugness, stupidity and careerism. Randi, Dawkins, Guardian columnists, the Parliamentary Labour Party, admen and PR guys, people who think "tinfoil-hattery" is a witty thing to say, a-souls of all descriptions.

One thing I like about seriously religious people, of any denomination, is that at least they don't worship themselves. Because they live at least part of the time in another dimension, a dimension that isn't and can't be ruled by their own ego and appetite.
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Re: After School Satan

Postby MacCruiskeen » Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:10 am

I'll take Blake (and Reich) over any self-described "Satanist" any day:

The voice of the Devil.

All Bibles or sacred codes have been the causes of the following Errors.

1. That Man has two real existing principles Viz: a Body & a Soul.

2. That Energy, call'd Evil, is alone from the Body, & that Reason, call'd Good, is alone from the Soul.

3. That God will torment Man in Eternity for following his Energies.

But the following Contraries to these are True

1. Man has no Body distinct from his Soul for that call'd Body is a portion of Soul discern'd by the five Senses, the chief inlets of Soul in this age

2. Energy is the only life and is from the Body and Reason is the bound or outward circumference of Energy.

3 Energy is Eternal Delight


- from The Marriage of Heaven and Hell (link to full text).

After School Blake and After School Reich - if done seriously and age-appropriately, those are ideas that would be well worth realising.
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Re: After School Satan

Postby divideandconquer » Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:36 am

MacCruiskeen » Wed Aug 03, 2016 6:58 am wrote:Great posts, guruilla.

guruilla wrote:If people believe certain things they are likely to act on their beliefs. Scientific rationalism combined with self-worship is a recipe for unimaginable kinds depravity, as we've seen in recent history, and whether or not we pin a Satanic label on any of it.


Right. On a banal everyday level, though, the results are not "unimaginable kinds of depravity" but very boring and predictable kinds of selfishness, smugness, stupidity and careerism. Randi, Dawkins, Guardian columnists, the Parliamentary Labour Party, admen and PR guys, people who think "tinfoil-hattery" is a witty thing to say, a-souls of all descriptions.

One thing I like about seriously religious people, of any denomination, is that at least they don't worship themselves. Because they live at least part of the time in another dimension, a dimension that isn't and can't be ruled by their own ego and appetite.


Unfortunately religion attracts a lot of people who do worship themselves, who bask in the limelight, thereby giving religion a bad name. The media loves to focus on these wolves in sheep's clothing, while totally ignoring those who have sacrificed their ego and dedicated their lives to the downtrodden. I personally know many of these religious people who try to walk the walk of Jesus Christ--instead of using Him to achieve an agenda that is in complete opposition to His teaching-- and they've truly made the world a better place.
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Re: After School Satan

Postby PufPuf93 » Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:28 pm

MacCruiskeen » Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:10 am wrote:I'll take Blake (and Reich) over any self-described "Satanist" any day:

The voice of the Devil.

All Bibles or sacred codes have been the causes of the following Errors.

1. That Man has two real existing principles Viz: a Body & a Soul.

2. That Energy, call'd Evil, is alone from the Body, & that Reason, call'd Good, is alone from the Soul.

3. That God will torment Man in Eternity for following his Energies.

But the following Contraries to these are True

1. Man has no Body distinct from his Soul for that call'd Body is a portion of Soul discern'd by the five Senses, the chief inlets of Soul in this age

2. Energy is the only life and is from the Body and Reason is the bound or outward circumference of Energy.

3 Energy is Eternal Delight


- from The Marriage of Heaven and Hell (link to full text).

After School Blake and After School Reich - if done seriously and age-appropriately, those are ideas that would be well worth realising.


As a comment, Blake's writings (especially The Marriage of Heaven and Hell) reflect the occult and mystical influence of Emanuel Swedenborg on Blake. Blake was also involved in and influenced by Theosophy and fringe freemasonry similar to the influence of the Golden Dawn order on William Butler Yeats.

There is much overlap in these systems (and the system of Crowley for instance); one aspect being that human individuals are fundamentally alone and unique and must find their own solitary way.

There is also always the question of whether something is satanic in spirit or Satanic as in following a deity. Spiritual and mystical paths have black and white or left hand versus right hand path approaches and maybe most often mixed. The danger therein is how power and influence over others manipulates and corrupts more so than if one is looking within or outside one's self for a source of strength, stability, organization, enlightenment, or reason.

There is the saying that when one needs a teacher, a teacher will manifest or the equivalent for the student. What may be closer to reality is that there are many teachers and teachings looking for followers or those willing to be led and also often those "teachers" are not clear to themselves and others about the agenda.

Too much evil exists in the World, evil that can only be addressed in our own heart. Evil is cunning. Evil manifests in every system and in just about any sort of human interaction unfortunately.

I have a hard time seeing the OP video and links as being anything more than clever sarcasm and at most an opportunity to sell satanic tea shirts and related garb on the internet.
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Re: After School Satan

Postby DrEvil » Wed Aug 03, 2016 1:45 pm

"I only read American. I want my fantasy pure." - Dave
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Re: After School Satan

Postby norton ash » Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:02 pm

As a comment, Blake's writings (especially The Marriage of Heaven and Hell) reflect the occult and mystical influence of Emanuel Swedenborg on Blake. Blake was also involved in and influenced by Theosophy and fringe freemasonry similar to the influence of the Golden Dawn order on William Butler Yeats.


Blake is such a visionary dynamo of energy/delight/awe in his words and art. I imagine he felt influences like streams entering a whirlpool.

If you're going to be honest about teaching any of these proposed creeds to kids (including after-school Blake) you're just going to frighten a lot of children. Some parent or administrator could just stamp 'violent', 'trigger warning' or 'non-inclusive' on the educational materials and they could be protested and shut down.

Anyway, I wish the kid would stop bringing home those Baphomet pictures and leaving them in the front hall... they always startle me when I put on my shoes.
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