Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Re: Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:41 pm

This post by Harvey is so damn good I want to make sure it gets top of page. (Cheaters!)

Harvey » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:30 pm wrote:
Wombaticus Rex » Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:12 pm wrote:
OP ED » Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:37 pm wrote:Its not that the major world powers are evil, they're also just not good enough at being evil to handle the workload.


Have come to similar conclusions. Foreign policy, as an artform, is morally reprehensible but strategically imperative. That contradiction won't get resolved any time soon.


Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.


Please forgive me for rambling...

More brute force than art for much of the last century or so. “Gunboat diplomacy” wasn't metaphorical.

The needs of big oil/coal/gas and MIC have between them determined foreign policy for more than a century so we might well ask how our needs and desires were shaped or encouraged to enable them. How much of what they do is necessary or through authentic popular demand? This is built into the nature of the discourse.

How much of the overriding obsession with security has been a genuine popular concern and how much an invention? How much is entrenched cultural chauvinism? How much is merely an the inevitable expression of economic necessity.* The apparent bizarreness of the security response to perceived threats, which more often than not were wholly misdirected if not invented, seems to indicate a wholly autonomous and out of control mechanism, distorting whatever foreign policy might have been should they (MIC etc) not exist.

Thinking along those lines might even point toward potential solutions. What would the world look like, not only if advanced weapons didn't exist, but if there wasn't a vast infrastructure and workforce dependent on the their continual production and use? How do we get there? What if instead of every war plane or tank, a solar powered desalination plant was built with the same resources. There'd be no water shortage anywhere for a start. What if the cost of resource wars over the last several decades had been spent mining asteroids or eliminating wasteful squandering of resources?

Many of the 'lifestyle' dreams we've been absorbing all our lives from the arts, particularly Hollywood and advertising but also literature, painting, photography and architecture once achieved turn out to be alienating and unsatisfying. The celebration of the car and the gun in American culture exemplify the veneration of objects necessary to those values which will eventually tolerate and then justify all the horror and the inequality. I've heard many people in the states commute to work via planes, sometimes more than one each way. Remember when the internet began to make all things seem possible rather than impossible? That moment where even employers were talking about how much work could be achieved remotely or how life could become less stressful and more family oriented? Much of that seems to be in stasis or gone entirely. Why?

Part of an answer might be found studying the design philosophy of Apple. Whenever I've been in those big apple stores, (out of curiosity, I've never owned an apple product) I notice people seem to adopt whispered tones of reverence in response to the almost priestly administrations of the store clerks, like some kind of bizarre confessional. It's possible to argue that the Mac, iPod, iPhone etc were less concerned with simplicity in minimising the interface than they were in limiting their use outside commercially driven barriers, ineluctably shaping the customer toward the product with each new iteration. The look and shape of the iPhone appears in retrospect to be a (un)conscious yearning for Kubrick's Monolith, the iPhone as agent of evolution. All of which is exemplified by Apples business ethics, hierarchic, restrictive, dogmatic, unprincipled and inscrutable. That little of this applies exclusively to Apple is part of my point. It's in the culture.

Bee Movie, which might have been scripted by the security state is ostensibly a discussion of individual liberty within the group using hive as metaphor for conformity. Community values are set against individual freedom, freedom which almost destroys the world as Bees go on strike and plants wither. With strange irony we began to face this threat within a few years of the film as agri-chem pesticides decimated bee populations with corporate effectiveness.

At heart a deeply conformist picture, Bee Movie argues the danger and essential frivolity of independent thought, though importantly not personal expression. Aimed at children, its most glaring aspect, obvious from outside is the fetishisation of authoritarian apparel, these bees have militarised technology and enforcement. Lantern jawed with the physique of Football players, they sport riot helmets, grimly jovial as they germinate plants not through evolved adaptation but with pollinating guns and other hardware reminiscent of a SWAT team. All this encouraging children to view these adornments as helpful accessories to life, while pollination is something best left to machines. What the fuck is that about?


In the last decade and a half there were innumerable potential technologies on the horizon which might have been designed to serve us. From the beginning we might have dreamed of machines which could liberate us. Instead those who did dreamed of machines which further enslaved us at so many levels, often through the very freedom they appeared to promise us. In every aspect of modern life from work to leisure, there is a machine we don't need.

Isn't foreign policy as we currently have it a machine which outlived it's moment of necessity?

*Economics (Adam Smith) arrived several decades before ecology (Darwin) but might learn a thing or two from it. Instead it drew all the wrong lessons through poorly understood evolutionary theories. In his theory of evolution Darwin stresses competition far less than co-operation.


Fantastic comment. Thank you.

Foreign policy is predicated on the existence of multiple nation-states claiming sovereignty over specific territories and competing on every field, even as transnational crossings and interests are expressed, usually as a game of RISK. How do we overcome this and the geostrategic power-thinking which is all of the following: class-based, obsolete, delusional, and neurotically destructive from go; without creating the global nightmare state of the neoliberal dream (which is likely eventually to fall apart) and without giving way to the global chaos that will most likely reconstitute as a new international system of antagonists?

.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

TopSecret WallSt. Iraq & more
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 16007
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:41 pm

Harvey » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:30 pm wrote:Isn't foreign policy as we currently have it a machine which outlived it's moment of necessity?


Yes, entropy is relentless. "That mighty sculptor, time."

And surely, the contours of our National Security State, as well as its uneasy alliances, are an accident of history, not some platonic form that inevitably emerged according to immutable natural laws.

I'm just saying that if you're tasked with protecting a nation state, you're fucked.
User avatar
Wombaticus Rex
 
Posts: 10896
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:33 pm
Location: Vermontistan
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

Postby Nordic » Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:37 am

I am a huge fan of Jill Stein and am voting for her.

However if the members of the GP I encountered on the various FB pages are any indication, the party itself barely exists. And many of the "leaders" in the party itself are gonna have to go if the thing takes off at all. They're strident, overly PC, tone-deaf, media ignorant, and have hair triggers about all their personal issues they're super defensive about.

It's kind of amazing they acvomplish anything. So I don't think the GP is "compromised". There's nothing to compromise. They're just a bunch of crazy misfits who barely know what they're doing. Jill Stein is God--like compared to most of the motley crew, except for a few individuals who seriously stand out.

They need a ton of money and some seriously strong organizational leadership. They need professionals (i.e. Money).

Still, build it and they will come, right? It's our only hope Obi Wan Kenobi.

The earth is dying. We're in the midst of a massive ecocide. We are ruled by murderous psychopaths.

What the fuck else are we gonna do?

Of course this whole WW3 thing may force a giant resetting of the clock and none of this may matter.

Just today The UK decided it was ok to shoot down Russian planes over Syria.

I really want off this time bomb.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
Nordic
 
Posts: 14230
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:36 am
Location: California USA
Blog: View Blog (6)

Re: Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

Postby 8bitagent » Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:30 am

Nordic » Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:37 am wrote:I am a huge fan of Jill Stein and am voting for her.

However if the members of the GP I encountered on the various FB pages are any indication, the party itself barely exists. And many of the "leaders" in the party itself are gonna have to go if the thing takes off at all. They're strident, overly PC, tone-deaf, media ignorant, and have hair triggers about all their personal issues they're super defensive about.

It's kind of amazing they acvomplish anything. So I don't think the GP is "compromised". There's nothing to compromise. They're just a bunch of crazy misfits who barely know what they're doing. Jill Stein is God--like compared to most of the motley crew, except for a few individuals who seriously stand out.

They need a ton of money and some seriously strong organizational leadership. They need professionals (i.e. Money).

Still, build it and they will come, right? It's our only hope Obi Wan Kenobi.

The earth is dying. We're in the midst of a massive ecocide. We are ruled by murderous psychopaths.

What the fuck else are we gonna do?

Of course this whole WW3 thing may force a giant resetting of the clock and none of this may matter.

Just today The UK decided it was ok to shoot down Russian planes over Syria.

I really want off this time bomb.


I'll be honest, the "Green" party thing for me is a protest vote. I do kinda sorta agree with the criticism of the third partiers that they need to get their shit together. If you want to challenge the two party duopoly, you need
to be grassroots 365, and not just crop up every 4 years(even ignoring the midterms) So I get the criticism. Like Luther, Jack and many others on here, I do believe an independent local based alternative consortium is necessary for survival. I cannot say that in the next hundred years, there won't be a nuclear, grid, global war or environmental catastrophe that isnt like something out of a movie. But I do have hope, there is a loosely connected grassroots system in place with serious people who are bridging between the self sustain alt energy, garden grower, alt community base and the thinkers, scientists, etc. I don't think its Art Bell conspiracy to think in the next even half
century The Road could be more documentary than fiction.

Obviously I am opposed to much of what the right Wing and Trumpians stand for, but I also deeply believe World Wars always happen with Democrats. And everything is ripe for the war to end all wars.
"Do you know who I am? I am the arm, and I sound like this..."-man from another place, twin peaks fire walk with me
User avatar
8bitagent
 
Posts: 12244
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:49 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

Postby dada » Fri Oct 14, 2016 3:03 am

Total sidetrack here, but I'll say it anyway. I don't like star wars. I don't like the first movie, or any others. I don't like the ideas, the lessons, the philosophy, the messages. Don't like the role it has played in the culture since the beginning. I think it channels creative thought down unproductive avenues. I like nothing about it.

Realizing this was a very freeing experience for me. I've since moved to a dimension where none of it exists. I'm happier and my life is richer without it.

Alright, I'm done proselytizing. Please pardon my rant.

Now back to, 'Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous.'

Nordic wrote:It's kind of amazing they acvomplish anything. So I don't think the GP is "compromised". There's nothing to compromise. They're just a bunch of crazy misfits who barely know what they're doing.


That makes more sense. I'll take a pragmatic view of the Greens over my conspiratorial mind. I try not to give the thoughts coming from my conspiratorial mind too much weight.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
User avatar
dada
 
Posts: 2600
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:08 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

Postby Searcher08 » Fri Oct 14, 2016 6:31 am

Realizing this was a very freeing experience for me. I've since moved to a dimension where none of it exists. I'm happier and my life is richer without it.


OK dada, you get my Most Intriguing R.I. Comment of the Month.

How do you do this when it (Star Wars) is nearly pervasive?
User avatar
Searcher08
 
Posts: 5887
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:21 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:26 am

dada » Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:03 am wrote:Total sidetrack here, but I'll say it anyway. I don't like star wars. I don't like the first movie, or any others. I don't like the ideas, the lessons, the philosophy, the messages. Don't like the role it has played in the culture since the beginning. I think it channels creative thought down unproductive avenues. I like nothing about it.


Si. Sad and persistent effect on culture.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

TopSecret WallSt. Iraq & more
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 16007
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

Postby Luther Blissett » Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:32 am

Nordic » Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:37 am wrote:I am a huge fan of Jill Stein and am voting for her.

However if the members of the GP I encountered on the various FB pages are any indication, the party itself barely exists. And many of the "leaders" in the party itself are gonna have to go if the thing takes off at all. They're strident, overly PC, tone-deaf, media ignorant, and have hair triggers about all their personal issues they're super defensive about.

It's kind of amazing they acvomplish anything. So I don't think the GP is "compromised". There's nothing to compromise. They're just a bunch of crazy misfits who barely know what they're doing. Jill Stein is God--like compared to most of the motley crew, except for a few individuals who seriously stand out.

They need a ton of money and some seriously strong organizational leadership. They need professionals (i.e. Money).

Still, build it and they will come, right? It's our only hope Obi Wan Kenobi.

The earth is dying. We're in the midst of a massive ecocide. We are ruled by murderous psychopaths.

What the fuck else are we gonna do?

Of course this whole WW3 thing may force a giant resetting of the clock and none of this may matter.

Just today The UK decided it was ok to shoot down Russian planes over Syria.

I really want off this time bomb.


My main observed concern with the Green Party and I think you'll agree is that they don't engage in any street politics and they should be. However, what I think is going to happen with the left and what a lot of people seem like they are trying to do is to build a more organized and more radical multi-tendency project that can and will just envelop Greens as part of this broad consortium. I think it's really important that this broad new left and the party it eventually comes start with addressing poverty first. We have solidarity with both black lives matter activists in Northeastern cities as well as mostly-white regional Appalachian worker's leagues.

Fight for (and win) housing rights battles since that's a basic human necessity that is still a problem and serves as a good grassroots foundational base.

Another thing we learned when trying to teach anything like computer literacy or adult ESL is that there's actually a huge need for literacy classes period. Before there can really be any talk about theory or education or whatever, literacy is a huge hurdle. That rests nicely right on top of the housing issue.

Free breakfasts, free hot food in winter, free after-school tutoring, free community programming for children - all necessary but it immediately becomes clear that the broader problem is capitalism. It's true that planting a large farmer's market in the middle of a food desert doesn't solve public health problems. Only the destruction of capitalism can do this. Deep poverty and inequality just need to be eliminated completely. It feels not right that this is a bandaid solution which points to the next level.

Cooperative farms and gardens circumvent and disrupt the whole system. Even when they're fully communal and the neighborhood knows they are free to "steal" a cabbage, that's what it should be designed to do. What are essentially large kitchen gardens, though, are actually kind of taxing on water resources, especially in some regions. It would be cool to develop some kind of grassroots, technologically advanced vertical farm since that's the way things are headed anyway.

There are plenty of other street-level actions a third party should start out with and build consortium from - mitigating climate change, adapting people for climate change, universal basic income research / demands / fights, equality for women, fights to legalize drugs and many other crimes, alternative forms of mutual aid societies and public "safety," worker ownership and worker cooperatives, counter-surveillance, information freedom and free wifi, etc. The Green Party could have done all these things, and in some small ways they have worked on some of them in the past, but instead a broader coalition of the left can work on them and then channel it all into some other visionary party ready for electoral politics that will probably involve the Greens.
The Rich and the Corporate remain in their hundred-year fever visions of Bolsheviks taking their stuff - JackRiddler
User avatar
Luther Blissett
 
Posts: 4991
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:31 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

Postby liminalOyster » Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:53 am

This continues to make me batty so forgive me in advance for any undue ire.

The Greens absolutely have been active during the past four years. Any argument to the contrary is bullshit. See their shadow cabinet among other things. Further they have been waaaaaaay more closely engaged with #BLM than pretty much anyone. Finally, Jill showed up at #NODAPL to spraypaint on a dozer "I approved this message." Suffice it to say that any little way they hurt someone's feeling aside, the party is speaking a very basic set of truths we all hold to be self-evident. Critiquing their aesthetics or their minutiae is simply counter revolutionary, even if it feels like a pleasant intelligentsia/masturbation exercise. Let them be, IOW.
"It's not rocket surgery." - Elvis
User avatar
liminalOyster
 
Posts: 1890
Joined: Thu May 05, 2016 10:28 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

Postby Luther Blissett » Fri Oct 14, 2016 12:27 pm

You know what, you're right. I voted for Nader in 2000 and Stein in 2004, I should know better. I've been following Stein on social media, get the newsletters, etc for awhile now. It's just that I wish our local office for the Green Party was more involved in local activism, especially where you'll see many other left groups supporting one another.

At our last local Green Party meeting, a black member noted the lack of outreach to the black community - which is paramount in a majority-black city like this.
The Rich and the Corporate remain in their hundred-year fever visions of Bolsheviks taking their stuff - JackRiddler
User avatar
Luther Blissett
 
Posts: 4991
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:31 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

Postby Nordic » Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:35 pm

liminalOyster » Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:53 am wrote:This continues to make me batty so forgive me in advance for any undue ire.

The Greens absolutely have been active during the past four years. Any argument to the contrary is bullshit. See their shadow cabinet among other things. Further they have been waaaaaaay more closely engaged with #BLM than pretty much anyone. Finally, Jill showed up at #NODAPL to spraypaint on a dozer "I approved this message." Suffice it to say that any little way they hurt someone's feeling aside, the party is speaking a very basic set of truths we all hold to be self-evident. Critiquing their aesthetics or their minutiae is simply counter revolutionary, even if it feels like a pleasant intelligentsia/masturbation exercise. Let them be, IOW.



Yes the activity they do accomplish is really commendable because they sure are small and have basically no funding.

I really want the GP to grow like mad and bring in a critical mass of people and money. I think this election season is a great opportunity for them to do exactly that.

There's no arguing though that they are underdogs to several powers of ten.

I do have a lot of hope that Jill Stein is gonna pull off shocking number of votes. That is IF the votes are counted which is unlikely. If they do count the votes and make it public I think it will be a wake up call. It could become very popular to join something that is growing and building. That being said some of the most prominent members of the party itself are gonna have to bow out and be replaced by people who better know how to run things and deal with PR.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
Nordic
 
Posts: 14230
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:36 am
Location: California USA
Blog: View Blog (6)

Re: Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

Postby coffin_dodger » Fri Oct 14, 2016 8:54 pm

Nordic:
That is IF the votes are counted which is unlikely

Diebold, anyone?
User avatar
coffin_dodger
 
Posts: 2216
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:05 am
Location: UK
Blog: View Blog (14)

Re: Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:32 pm

Luther Blissett » Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:32 am wrote:
My main observed concern with the Green Party and I think you'll agree is that they don't engage in any street politics and they should be.


All 6000 of them (my estimate of Green Party members actually working organizationally as such) are very engaged in street politics, generally not as Greens but as eco or other activists. That's a point to their favor, if anything, given the actual size of the organized GP. They have whatever tenuous existence they have thanks to street politics, as a small layer thereof, and there is no vice-versa in that.

However, what I think is going to happen with the left and what a lot of people seem like they are trying to do is to build a more organized and more radical multi-tendency project that can and will just envelop Greens as part of this broad consortium.


Yes, it can't be the GP in the end, it has to flow into something new.

I think it's really important that this broad new left and the party it eventually comes start with addressing poverty first.


Absolutely. Inescapable.

Fight for (and win) housing rights battles since that's a basic human necessity that is still a problem and serves as a good grassroots foundational base.

Another thing we learned when trying to teach anything like computer literacy or adult ESL is that there's actually a huge need for literacy classes period. Before there can really be any talk about theory or education or whatever, literacy is a huge hurdle. That rests nicely right on top of the housing issue.

Free breakfasts, free hot food in winter, free after-school tutoring, free community programming for children - all necessary but it immediately becomes clear that the broader problem is capitalism. It's true that planting a large farmer's market in the middle of a food desert doesn't solve public health problems. Only the destruction of capitalism can do this. Deep poverty and inequality just need to be eliminated completely. It feels not right that this is a bandaid solution which points to the next level.

Cooperative farms and gardens circumvent and disrupt the whole system. Even when they're fully communal and the neighborhood knows they are free to "steal" a cabbage, that's what it should be designed to do. What are essentially large kitchen gardens, though, are actually kind of taxing on water resources, especially in some regions. It would be cool to develop some kind of grassroots, technologically advanced vertical farm since that's the way things are headed anyway.

There are plenty of other street-level actions a third party should start out with and build consortium from - mitigating climate change, adapting people for climate change, universal basic income research / demands / fights, equality for women, fights to legalize drugs and many other crimes, alternative forms of mutual aid societies and public "safety," worker ownership and worker cooperatives, counter-surveillance, information freedom and free wifi, etc. The Green Party could have done all these things, and in some small ways they have worked on some of them in the past, but instead a broader coalition of the left can work on them and then channel it all into some other visionary party ready for electoral politics that will probably involve the Greens.


All of the above!

.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

TopSecret WallSt. Iraq & more
User avatar
JackRiddler
 
Posts: 16007
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 pm
Location: New York City
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

Postby Nordic » Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:49 pm

Yes, it can't be the GP in the end, it has to flow into something new.


Interesting notion ....

There's a vacuum and something is going to fill it. That's about all I know.
"He who wounds the ecosphere literally wounds God" -- Philip K. Dick
Nordic
 
Posts: 14230
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:36 am
Location: California USA
Blog: View Blog (6)

Re: Jill Stein is Seriously Dangerous

Postby Iamwhomiam » Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:45 pm

The Greens I know are Service To Others type of folk working to benefit society and meet unmet needs. In other words, most practice what they preach.

And let's face it, the Greens have worked for years to become as accepted as they are today.
User avatar
Iamwhomiam
 
Posts: 6572
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:47 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests