Congratulations, Stupid.

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Re: Congratulations, Stupid.

Postby Burnt Hill » Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:43 am

coffin_dodger » Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:24 am wrote:Tell you what, chaps - RI isn't the same place I joined a few years ago - it's morphed from an interesting, intriguing mix of ideas and personalities into a politically correct wet dream, policed by zealots. I'll give Wom an hour or two to ban me - then I'll start bumping AD's nazi threads continuously until he does.
Cheers to search, sounder, wom, slomo, savant, chump, brandon d, canadian watcher, antiaristo, fruh, harvey, willow, griz, semper, tap, nord, slim, iani, elfi, allegro and anyone else missed unintentionally.
Toodle-pip.


You just complained about a binary outlook and now you are over indulging in one,
to your own dismay.
The only problem I am seeing on the board is a trend of pseudo-intellectualists trying to feel superior to those with emotional intelligence.
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Re: Congratulations, Stupid.

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:01 pm

Strange, what I see is a stubborn anti-intellectualism among those whose worldview purportedly comes from a magical place where facts and logic do not apply. Some of the posters who claim high emotional intelligence seem unable even to read an operator as transparent as Trump, and are (as DrEvil said) "OK with a racist misogynist who advocates war crimes in the White house," and do not apply their magical empathy to their fellow human beings who face racism -- which they claim does not even exist.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

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I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: Congratulations, Stupid.

Postby DrEvil » Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:07 pm

^^This. My emotional intelligence is about the same as my shoe size, but even I can tell that Trump is bad fucking news.
But I don't come from a place where numbers are a ploy by the ptb to pull the wool over our eyes, so what do I know.
"I only read American. I want my fantasy pure." - Dave
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Re: Congratulations, Stupid.

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:10 pm

Numbers can totally be a ploy by the PTB or just anyone, but no one's said the vote count is faked yet. Even as they celebrate that the second-place finisher gets the prize, so who faked it for whom? Seems to be more a matter of general contempt for factual claims of any kind.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

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I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: Congratulations, Stupid.

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:38 pm

coffin_dodger » Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:24 am wrote:T I'll give Wom an hour or two to ban me - then I'll start bumping AD's nazi threads continuously until he does.


You're gonna make me do it?

Jesus, bud.
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Re: Congratulations, Stupid.

Postby Luther Blissett » Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:42 pm

Incidentally the anti-fascist threads contain practical advice now more than ever.
The Rich and the Corporate remain in their hundred-year fever visions of Bolsheviks taking their stuff - JackRiddler
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Re: Congratulations, Stupid.

Postby Burnt Hill » Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:50 pm

JackRiddler » Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:01 pm wrote:Strange, what I see is a stubborn anti-intellectualism among those whose worldview purportedly comes from a magical place where facts and logic do not apply. Some of the posters who claim high emotional intelligence seem unable even to read an operator as transparent as Trump, and are (as DrEvil said) "OK with a racist misogynist who advocates war crimes in the White house," and do not apply their magical empathy to their fellow human beings who face racism -- which they claim does not even exist.

Yes.
I defer my "pseudo" to your "anti".
And "claims" of high emotional intelligence do not equal intelligence.
So we are in agreement.
I am too oblique for my own good.
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Re: Congratulations, Stupid.

Postby DrEvil » Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:02 pm

JackRiddler » Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:10 pm wrote:Numbers can totally be a ploy by the PTB or just anyone, but no one's said the vote count is faked yet. Even as they celebrate that the second-place finisher gets the prize, so who faked it for whom? Seems to be more a matter of general contempt for factual claims of any kind.


I didn't mean that numbers are manipulated but that they don't actually exist at all. I was making fun of a certain poster (*cough*in_dodger*cough*) who's in the habit of pretending that the parts of reality he doesn't like don't exist.
Other than that I agree.
"I only read American. I want my fantasy pure." - Dave
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Re: Congratulations, Stupid.

Postby Belligerent Savant » Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:09 pm

Wombaticus Rex » Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:38 am wrote:
coffin_dodger » Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:24 am wrote:T I'll give Wom an hour or two to ban me - then I'll start bumping AD's nazi threads continuously until he does.


You're gonna make me do it?

Jesus, bud.


Come now, c_d --- step away from the ledge! Don't let the fevered egos bring you down..
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Re: Congratulations, Stupid.

Postby stickdog99 » Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:39 pm

I love that my thinking the Trump sucks and that racism is bad makes me a politically correct pseudo-intellectual.

It's fucking spooky how well you have me sussed. It's as if you were watching me watch Action Bronson watch Ancient Aliens.
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Re: Congratulations, Stupid.

Postby DrEvil » Fri Nov 11, 2016 7:41 pm

coffin_dodger » Fri Nov 11, 2016 4:52 pm wrote:It must be depressing living in a mind with such a limited, binary outlook. Plenty of room for hatred, though. Strange world.


The egregore of American hatred just got elected president, and not liking that is hateful and bad?

It's not a binary outlook to despise someone who brags about committing sexual assault, it's basic human decency. I'll ask you the same thing I asked tapitsbo (which he hasn't bothered answering yet):

Are you OK with the White house being occupied by a racist misogynist who advocates war crimes?

Tell you what, chaps - RI isn't the same place I joined a few years ago - it's morphed from an interesting, intriguing mix of ideas and personalities into a politically correct wet dream, policed by zealots. I'll give Wom an hour or two to ban me - then I'll start bumping AD's nazi threads continuously until he does.


Translation: Waaaah! Why is everyone being so mean to me? I'm going to act like a petulant child until someone makes me stop.


Bonus question: do you believe in quantum physics yet?
Hint: electric interactions (as in the electric universe you're promoting) are described by quantum electrodynamics. Electricity doesn't work without quantum physics.
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Re: Congratulations, Stupid.

Postby stillrobertpaulsen » Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:51 pm

Hey Jack, electoral-vote.com had a few stories today breaking down the numbers:

Democrats Lost Because Democrats Didn't Vote

Many stories have been written (and are yet to be written) about why Hillary Clinton lost. Economists like the idea of "workers are hurting badly" (although see below). Social scientists would probably prefer the "there are a lot of racists out there" line. We're data nerds, so we have a different angle: Democrats didn't bother to vote this time. We even have a downloadable Excel spreadsheet to help make our case. Here are the data from the spreadsheet:

Image

It's a big chart with lots of little numbers, so where do we start? The second and third columns are the Clinton and Trump raw vote in 2016. The fourth column is Clinton minus Trump, so positive means Clinton won the state and negative means Trump won it. From the bottom line we see that Hillary Clinton won the national popular vote in 2016 by 282,546 votes out of a total of 119.8 million votes or 0.2%. Trump's margins in Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania were 11,837 and 27,357, and 68,236, respectively. If Clinton had gotten 107,430 more votes in these three states in the right proportion, she would have won the election. In other words, a change of less than 0.1% of the vote, properly placed, would have flipped the presidency. A Trump surprise it was, but a landslide it was not.

Columns five through seven are the analogous data for 2012. Column 8 is how many more Democrats voted in 2016 compared to 2012 as a percentage of the 2012 vote. So for example, in Washington 30.42% fewer Democrats voted for Clinton than voted for Obama in 2012, despite the U.S. population being over 3% larger in 2016. Washington Democrats, you are not doing your job. Column nine is the same thing for the Republicans. Here we see that North Dakota Republican turnout was 14.86% higher in 2016 than in 2012. North Dakota Republicans, you are performing your civic duty very well, congratulations.

Now, let's go back to the bottom row again. In 2016, 60.1 million Democrats voted, compared to 65.9 million in 2012, even though the population was 3.5% larger this year. That's a huge drop-off. In contrast, Republican turnout was down only slightly, from 60.9 million to 59.8 million this year. So our first conclusion is that the Democrats lost because 6 million fewer of them voted this year than last time.

The next question is, where did the dropoff occur? Was it, for example, largely in red states that have adopted stricter requirements to vote? The first thing we note is the champions in not-voting were Washington and California, two very blue states. The table is sorted on column 8, so we see the state where Democratic turnout improved the most is—Texas. What about the states that Obama won but Clinton lost? These are marked in orange in the last two columns. In Iowa and Ohio, Democratic turnout was way down and Republican turnout was somewhat up. Neither state had serious voting restrictions. The Democrats have only themselves to blame. If as many Democrats had voted in Ohio as in 2012, Clinton would have carried the state by over 100,000 votes. Wisconsin and Michigan have similar stories. If Clinton's turnout had matched Obama's, she would have won both states easily.

Pennsylvania is different. There, Democratic turnout didn't fall too much, but Republican turnout was up almost 9%. Finally, in Florida, we have one of only five states where Democratic turnout was better than in 2012 (and only three where it was higher when you correct for population growth). Unfortunately for the Democrats, Republican turnout improved by even more than Democratic turnout.

So, our conclusion is that Democrats lost because their turnout was down, rather than because millions of new Republicans suddenly decided to vote. What we can't see is why. In some cases, it could be due to restrictive state or local laws, in others it could be because supporters of Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) decided both Clinton and Trump were corporate stooges and there was no difference between them. Maybe other reasons. We'll leave that for others to figure out. (V)






Was the Trump Voter Motivated by Economics or by Racism

One of the big questions of 2016 was what motivated the people who voted for Donald Trump, besides the little (R) after his name. One theory is that economically hard-hit workers liked his promises to fix the economy and create new jobs. Another is that many voters gravitated to his attacks on blacks, Mexicans, Muslims, and other minorities. The exit polls shed some light on the issue. One of the questions asked of voters was their annual income in six broad ranges as shown below. The numbers in the boxes are Trump's share of the vote minus Clinton's:

Image

What we see is that voters making less than $50,000 per year strongly went for Clinton. Those voters making less than $30,000 per year went for Clinton by 12 points and those making $30,000 to $50,000 went for her by 9 points. Voters making more than $50,000 went for Trump. If Trump's base was primarily voters who are hurting economically (making less than $50K), we would have expected the poorer voters to support Trump. In fact, the reverse is true. This suggests that his attacks on minorities played a bigger role in rounding up voters than economic hardship. (V)



Other Key Findings from the Exit Polls

Chris Cillizza of the Washington Post has dug into the exit poll data and come to a number of conclusions as follows:

Trump won the white vote by a record margin
There was no surge of female voters
There was no surge of Latino voters
Education mattered yugely
Trump did better with white evangelicals than Romney
Trump didn't bring lots of new voters to the process
The economy was a big issue—and Clinton won it
This was a change election and Trump was the change candidate
Obamacare was a wind beneath Trump's wings
Trump's personal image was and is horrible
Clinton's e-mail hurt her
This was a deeply pessimistic electorate
People didn't think Trump lost the debates as badly as I (Cillizza) did

In short, quite a few predictions (female surge, Latino surge) didn't pan out. (V)
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Re: Congratulations, Stupid.

Postby slomo » Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:22 pm

That's interesting data and it's almost enough to make me change my interpretation of the reasons why Clinton lost. Almost.

The issue is the missing data. Who are the people who didn't vote? If they were overwhelmingly economically disenfranchised people who felt alienated by both candidates, then the breakdown by income is severely biased (technical term: "non-ignorable missingness"). The counterfactual scenario where Trump was running against Sanders could easily have resulted in an opposite association of income and preference for Trump.

I'm willing to be convinced with additional data that addresses the missing data (people who stayed home), but for now I still stand by my interpretation: large numbers of people stayed home this election, and the reason is that neither candidate appealed.

stillrobertpaulsen » 11 Nov 2016 17:51 wrote:Hey Jack, electoral-vote.com had a few stories today breaking down the numbers:

Democrats Lost Because Democrats Didn't Vote

Many stories have been written (and are yet to be written) about why Hillary Clinton lost. Economists like the idea of "workers are hurting badly" (although see below). Social scientists would probably prefer the "there are a lot of racists out there" line. We're data nerds, so we have a different angle: Democrats didn't bother to vote this time. We even have a downloadable Excel spreadsheet to help make our case. Here are the data from the spreadsheet:

Image

It's a big chart with lots of little numbers, so where do we start? The second and third columns are the Clinton and Trump raw vote in 2016. The fourth column is Clinton minus Trump, so positive means Clinton won the state and negative means Trump won it. From the bottom line we see that Hillary Clinton won the national popular vote in 2016 by 282,546 votes out of a total of 119.8 million votes or 0.2%. Trump's margins in Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania were 11,837 and 27,357, and 68,236, respectively. If Clinton had gotten 107,430 more votes in these three states in the right proportion, she would have won the election. In other words, a change of less than 0.1% of the vote, properly placed, would have flipped the presidency. A Trump surprise it was, but a landslide it was not.

Columns five through seven are the analogous data for 2012. Column 8 is how many more Democrats voted in 2016 compared to 2012 as a percentage of the 2012 vote. So for example, in Washington 30.42% fewer Democrats voted for Clinton than voted for Obama in 2012, despite the U.S. population being over 3% larger in 2016. Washington Democrats, you are not doing your job. Column nine is the same thing for the Republicans. Here we see that North Dakota Republican turnout was 14.86% higher in 2016 than in 2012. North Dakota Republicans, you are performing your civic duty very well, congratulations.

Now, let's go back to the bottom row again. In 2016, 60.1 million Democrats voted, compared to 65.9 million in 2012, even though the population was 3.5% larger this year. That's a huge drop-off. In contrast, Republican turnout was down only slightly, from 60.9 million to 59.8 million this year. So our first conclusion is that the Democrats lost because 6 million fewer of them voted this year than last time.

The next question is, where did the dropoff occur? Was it, for example, largely in red states that have adopted stricter requirements to vote? The first thing we note is the champions in not-voting were Washington and California, two very blue states. The table is sorted on column 8, so we see the state where Democratic turnout improved the most is—Texas. What about the states that Obama won but Clinton lost? These are marked in orange in the last two columns. In Iowa and Ohio, Democratic turnout was way down and Republican turnout was somewhat up. Neither state had serious voting restrictions. The Democrats have only themselves to blame. If as many Democrats had voted in Ohio as in 2012, Clinton would have carried the state by over 100,000 votes. Wisconsin and Michigan have similar stories. If Clinton's turnout had matched Obama's, she would have won both states easily.

Pennsylvania is different. There, Democratic turnout didn't fall too much, but Republican turnout was up almost 9%. Finally, in Florida, we have one of only five states where Democratic turnout was better than in 2012 (and only three where it was higher when you correct for population growth). Unfortunately for the Democrats, Republican turnout improved by even more than Democratic turnout.

So, our conclusion is that Democrats lost because their turnout was down, rather than because millions of new Republicans suddenly decided to vote. What we can't see is why. In some cases, it could be due to restrictive state or local laws, in others it could be because supporters of Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) decided both Clinton and Trump were corporate stooges and there was no difference between them. Maybe other reasons. We'll leave that for others to figure out. (V)






Was the Trump Voter Motivated by Economics or by Racism

One of the big questions of 2016 was what motivated the people who voted for Donald Trump, besides the little (R) after his name. One theory is that economically hard-hit workers liked his promises to fix the economy and create new jobs. Another is that many voters gravitated to his attacks on blacks, Mexicans, Muslims, and other minorities. The exit polls shed some light on the issue. One of the questions asked of voters was their annual income in six broad ranges as shown below. The numbers in the boxes are Trump's share of the vote minus Clinton's:

Image

What we see is that voters making less than $50,000 per year strongly went for Clinton. Those voters making less than $30,000 per year went for Clinton by 12 points and those making $30,000 to $50,000 went for her by 9 points. Voters making more than $50,000 went for Trump. If Trump's base was primarily voters who are hurting economically (making less than $50K), we would have expected the poorer voters to support Trump. In fact, the reverse is true. This suggests that his attacks on minorities played a bigger role in rounding up voters than economic hardship. (V)



Other Key Findings from the Exit Polls

Chris Cillizza of the Washington Post has dug into the exit poll data and come to a number of conclusions as follows:

Trump won the white vote by a record margin
There was no surge of female voters
There was no surge of Latino voters
Education mattered yugely
Trump did better with white evangelicals than Romney
Trump didn't bring lots of new voters to the process
The economy was a big issue—and Clinton won it
This was a change election and Trump was the change candidate
Obamacare was a wind beneath Trump's wings
Trump's personal image was and is horrible
Clinton's e-mail hurt her
This was a deeply pessimistic electorate
People didn't think Trump lost the debates as badly as I (Cillizza) did

In short, quite a few predictions (female surge, Latino surge) didn't pan out. (V)
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Re: Congratulations, Stupid.

Postby JackRiddler » Sat Nov 12, 2016 12:59 am

(a response to this post in the "I Hate Liberals Thread," or whatever it's called)

Jonathan Pie has his caricature of "the left." He's funny and he has his fun with it. At the climactic point in his post election rant, what is the lesson? "Insulting people doesn't work any more!" Ah. And right after that? "Because Trump won the White House."

Excuse me?

Image

That's some mental gymnastics by Pie!

Insulting seems to work fabulously well. I guess what Pie does not realize he is saying is that some people are privileged to insult, and still be treated like delicate flowers lest they be insulted in return. Long as they are this fictional image of Joe Bluecollar who wouldn't have voted for Trump except for Samantha Bee, whom he's never heard of, being so mean to him. (Or just plain racist fucks angry because they think the Liberal Stasi will disappear them if they call people niggers.)

.

.

Anyway, as with most of the posts on that thread, it is predicated on uncritical acceptance of a lie. Trump didn't win the White House. He lost the vote by what's currently a margin of 400,000. Some slaveholders in 1787 who devised a system that would allow them to nullify the results of popular elections won the White House, as they have many times before.

.
Last edited by JackRiddler on Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

To Justice my maker from on high did incline:
I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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Re: Congratulations, Stupid.

Postby OP ED » Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:04 am

Quite. He lost the vote but won the game.
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fecemi la divina podestate,
la somma sapienza e 'l primo amore.

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