Congratulations, Stupid.

Moderators: Elvis, DrVolin, Jeff

Re: Congratulations, Stupid.

Postby Luther Blissett » Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:18 pm

brekin » Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:07 pm wrote:Luther, Searcher, Rory, I agree with you mostly.

But to me I don't understand how people can think of this just as a course correction or that now, now, the dems will finally reach out to the working class, progs, etc. or even be able to. How? By running a demagogue like Trump next time? A anti-Obama? And why? Clinton was actually as good as it gets. (Bernie never really had a chance. Obama was seen as bad for business. Can you imagine? How would Bernie then ever get any business backing to run? The dems trying to discreetly get Bernie to sit down was just the equivalent of getting the chainsaw out of grandpas mitts because he wants to go cut firewood in the forest for everyone at thanksgiving dinner. He's not up to the task and he would just end up a bloody mess ruining everyone's thanksgiving for all time.)

Also, the faith that people have in a way back from this is unbelievably pollyanna-like. Especially from the usually so morose disaffected leftists and progressives. Trump took a hammer to the grandfather clock we call democracy, which yeah didn't keep the best time, but he's really fucked it up. And he's just getting started. Why wouldn't he solidify his power in every way imaginable and make it nearly impossible for an opposition to come up? This is a guy who fights dirty, mean, and for the jugular, out in the open. And now he has enormous power. Trumps election has endorsed the politics of hate. Why would the next democratic president be better than any of the previous after all this? It seems they could be as bad or worse than Trump and still win.


The dems will die now and be replaced with a new party for the people, a bucking revolt against Citizens United and the power elite.
The Rich and the Corporate remain in their hundred-year fever visions of Bolsheviks taking their stuff - JackRiddler
User avatar
Luther Blissett
 
Posts: 4991
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:31 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Congratulations, Stupid.

Postby brekin » Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:40 pm

OP ED wrote:
dada » Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:13 am wrote:The left surprised me in this election. Far from being angry with them, I'm impressed.

Like Jack, I thought it would be better fighting a Clinton administration. I notice Chomsky had a similar view. But I never 'supported the system,' I don't respect it. Tacit support of Clinton for me was strategy.
So it didn't happen. The left has spoken. I can work with that. I knew as soon as the election was over, it would be time for a strategy change. Unlike 'liberals,' I actually have a liberated mind, open to ideas, working the best I can with all the tools available at any given moment.
All the sound and fury from the democrats is just that. They know they will have to move left, now. But they're not ready to admit it.
My prediction. When social security is swallowed up in the next big financial crash, this 'lecturing' at the left by the democrats will disappear. When democrats have no 'skin in the game,' they'll come around.
Maybe it's what needs to happen. Sad, but I don't see what's going to stop it.


Even with a stake through the heart of the bloodsucking Clinton dynasty, the house they built will be here for at least a few more cycles. Vampires are notoriously difficult to finish.
HRC cared more about getting neoconservative endorsement than appealing to the left. This trend may slow, but it will be some time before it grinds itself out.

.....

So brekin, no comments on the red shift in swing States with Republican leadership?
No thought as to how the exit polls were so wrong?
(They were wrong enough here that certain newspapers called it for Hillary in the early afternoon before I even voted, they were having a party on my block)

I guess acknowledgement of this reality would threaten the integrity of your central thesis, but it would be interesting to hear your thoughts. Because it didn't really surprise me. They do this to my state all the time now. Which is one of many reasons I vote how I feel instead of "pragmatically". They don't count them anyway, and even the most powerful person to ever run for President seems unwilling to challenge the obvious theft or even discuss it. Rolled over faster than Gore. Which is in itself an accomplishment I suppose. So much for a vote to stop fascism.


Geez, when will you "last holdouts" realize you are part of the system, are the system? The Left has spoken? Huh? What did it say? "Oops! Oh Fuck! Dang, there goes Western Civilization! But hey, lets get out in the streets! And makes some noise! And protest because we handed the country off to Trump in the end zone! Go, TEAM!!!" You can work with that? With that complete and utter break down in simple causality? I guess with your liberated mind you also take a rainbow, wrap it in a sigh and soak it in the sun and make a groovy lemon pie!

You act like you and your Green crew or whatevs would have the system reformed and running at a progressive clip if only you were running things. But you've just proven you should never be in a position of power, like ever. Not even to watch the till at a Bingo tournament. Or have any acumen of getting there. You voted on "how I feel" instead of "pragmatically". Do you know how illogical that is? That's like saying I vote for unicorns because unicorns make me feel hopeful! But pragmatically they probably won't get in power, because they don't exist. But please respect my vote and don't hurt my feelings.

Polls. The same thing was trial ballooned for Schwarzenegger as Governor. He seemed like a novelty, then a popular novelty, then a conversation piece, then an annoying reminder of celebrity culture and media cycles, etc. And then surprise, surprise, he's suddenly Governor. Gosh, I guess polls are wrong. See, that's why I vote not taking in any "safety margins", because there are none.
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/lar ... recall-win

You just don't want to admit how much you and your circle were played by the media, polling and groupthink. Because you voted before based on what you were fed before, and then fed you the same old lie.

Luther Blissett wrote:
brekin » Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:07 pm wrote:Luther, Searcher, Rory, I agree with you mostly.

But to me I don't understand how people can think of this just as a course correction or that now, now, the dems will finally reach out to the working class, progs, etc. or even be able to. How? By running a demagogue like Trump next time? A anti-Obama? And why? Clinton was actually as good as it gets. (Bernie never really had a chance. Obama was seen as bad for business. Can you imagine? How would Bernie then ever get any business backing to run? The dems trying to discreetly get Bernie to sit down was just the equivalent of getting the chainsaw out of grandpas mitts because he wants to go cut firewood in the forest for everyone at thanksgiving dinner. He's not up to the task and he would just end up a bloody mess ruining everyone's thanksgiving for all time.)

Also, the faith that people have in a way back from this is unbelievably pollyanna-like. Especially from the usually so morose disaffected leftists and progressives. Trump took a hammer to the grandfather clock we call democracy, which yeah didn't keep the best time, but he's really fucked it up. And he's just getting started. Why wouldn't he solidify his power in every way imaginable and make it nearly impossible for an opposition to come up? This is a guy who fights dirty, mean, and for the jugular, out in the open. And now he has enormous power. Trumps election has endorsed the politics of hate. Why would the next democratic president be better than any of the previous after all this? It seems they could be as bad or worse than Trump and still win.


The dems will die now and be replaced with a new party for the people, a bucking revolt against Citizens United and the power elite.


Yeah, because each dem who dies, a new voter will sprout from their corpse, with a brand new political consciousness. Oh wait, that probably won't happen because people really don't change, and loss and frustration tends to have them revert back to what they know. But, wait, yeah a new democratic leader will rise, a leader who will capture the spirit of this disenchantment and growing anger at the system not representing them, an outsider who is for the working class, is going to repeal NAFTA, bring manufacturing jobs back to America, he won't talk like a politician and won't care what the media thinks...he will have golden hair, and orange skin, and live in a magical fortress.

I am loving that the magical thinking on RI has suddenly shifted from years of black magic thinking to the new sparkly twilight version.

Dream on
Dream on
Dream on
Dream until your dreams come true

If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
User avatar
brekin
 
Posts: 3229
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:21 pm
Blog: View Blog (1)

Re: Congratulations, Stupid.

Postby OP ED » Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:44 pm

So you trust electronic voting?
User avatar
OP ED
 
Posts: 4673
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:04 pm
Location: Detroit
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Congratulations, Stupid.

Postby brekin » Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:52 pm

OP ED » Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:44 pm wrote:So you trust electronic voting?


Did it count your vote right? It did mine.
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
User avatar
brekin
 
Posts: 3229
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:21 pm
Blog: View Blog (1)

Re: Congratulations, Stupid.

Postby Luther Blissett » Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:55 pm

brekin » Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:40 pm wrote:
Luther Blissett wrote:
brekin » Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:07 pm wrote:Luther, Searcher, Rory, I agree with you mostly.

But to me I don't understand how people can think of this just as a course correction or that now, now, the dems will finally reach out to the working class, progs, etc. or even be able to. How? By running a demagogue like Trump next time? A anti-Obama? And why? Clinton was actually as good as it gets. (Bernie never really had a chance. Obama was seen as bad for business. Can you imagine? How would Bernie then ever get any business backing to run? The dems trying to discreetly get Bernie to sit down was just the equivalent of getting the chainsaw out of grandpas mitts because he wants to go cut firewood in the forest for everyone at thanksgiving dinner. He's not up to the task and he would just end up a bloody mess ruining everyone's thanksgiving for all time.)

Also, the faith that people have in a way back from this is unbelievably pollyanna-like. Especially from the usually so morose disaffected leftists and progressives. Trump took a hammer to the grandfather clock we call democracy, which yeah didn't keep the best time, but he's really fucked it up. And he's just getting started. Why wouldn't he solidify his power in every way imaginable and make it nearly impossible for an opposition to come up? This is a guy who fights dirty, mean, and for the jugular, out in the open. And now he has enormous power. Trumps election has endorsed the politics of hate. Why would the next democratic president be better than any of the previous after all this? It seems they could be as bad or worse than Trump and still win.


The dems will die now and be replaced with a new party for the people, a bucking revolt against Citizens United and the power elite.


Yeah, because each dem who dies, a new voter will sprout from their corpse, with a brand new political consciousness. Oh wait, that probably won't happen because people really don't change, and loss and frustration tends to have them revert back to what they know. But, wait, yeah a new democratic leader will rise, a leader who will capture the spirit of this disenchantment and growing anger at the system not representing them, an outsider who is for the working class, is going to repeal NAFTA, bring manufacturing jobs back to America, he won't talk like a politician and won't care what the media thinks...he will have golden hair, and orange skin, and live in a magical fortress.

I am loving that the magical thinking on RI has suddenly shifted from years of black magic thinking to the new sparkly twilight version.


I'm talking the party, not the voters. We're building towards an era of unity, leaderlessness, syndicalism, and mass action. We don't really need leadership. People know that the corporate imperialist party doesn't serve their needs just as a majority of people also know that the New Fascist party doesn't serve their needs, and repudiated it in this election. It is time for class struggle to come to the fore and for the power elites to go.
The Rich and the Corporate remain in their hundred-year fever visions of Bolsheviks taking their stuff - JackRiddler
User avatar
Luther Blissett
 
Posts: 4991
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:31 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Congratulations, Stupid.

Postby OP ED » Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:41 pm

brekin » Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:52 pm wrote:
OP ED » Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:44 pm wrote:So you trust electronic voting?


Did it count your vote right? It did mine.


Based on what evidence?
Giustizia mosse il mio alto fattore:
fecemi la divina podestate,
la somma sapienza e 'l primo amore.

:: ::
S.H.C.R.
User avatar
OP ED
 
Posts: 4673
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:04 pm
Location: Detroit
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Congratulations, Stupid.

Postby dada » Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:56 pm

OP ED wrote:
Even with a stake through the heart of the bloodsucking Clinton dynasty, the house they built will be here for at least a few more cycles. Vampires are notoriously difficult to finish.

HRC cared more about getting neoconservative endorsement than appealing to the left. This trend may slow, but it will be some time before it grinds itself out.


Agreed. It will take some time for it to bleed out. But it is wounded, bleeding. Notice, the blood is the color of money.

Of course it won't just lay down and die quietly. They will make hollow appeals to the left for help. Some softer-hearted consumers will be duped into feeling sorry for them. And the media and the press still supports them, of course.

The media and the press could use an overhaul.

I still think losing the safety net will be the point where things really start happening. It'll be like a punch to the gut of every consumer. For those who are already relatively free of all that it'll be like just another day, but with more crazy people running around screaming.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
User avatar
dada
 
Posts: 2600
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:08 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Congratulations, Stupid.

Postby brekin » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:23 pm

OP ED wrote:
brekin » Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:52 pm wrote:
OP ED » Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:44 pm wrote:So you trust electronic voting?

Did it count your vote right? It did mine.

Based on what evidence?


You know, numbers. This site, like numerous sites, has election results down to the county.
http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/national.php

That one even has pre-election poll data from three different polls.
Do you see anything amiss?
Clinton was projected ahead by 2%, 46% to Trump 44% in Michigan.
Clinton ended up losing by 03% there.
Say you live there.
Hey, how did you and all your friends vote again?
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
User avatar
brekin
 
Posts: 3229
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:21 pm
Blog: View Blog (1)

Re: Congratulations, Stupid.

Postby Joe Hillshoist » Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:00 pm

brekin » 17 Nov 2016 15:47 wrote:
Finally, someone talking some sense! In nice short sentences. Yes, that might just have helped stop fascism.

We know I would have had to put the kibosh on OP ED's.

But tell me Joe, how did your vote go to stop fascism?
Hey Joe, where you goin' with that ballot of yours?
Hey Joe, I said where you goin' with that ballot in your hand, oh



Are you seriously telling me that you controlling how other people vote will stop fascism.

For people in the rest of the world a vote for trump is more likely to mean they have less violence in their lives than a vote for Clinton.

So from the POV of people outside the USA - who gives a fuck what happens to your civil rights if it means you stop bombing people who aren't white and don't live in the US. Americans were happy to keep their civil rights while they shat on the rest of the worlds so clearly they don't deserve to have any.
Joe Hillshoist
 
Posts: 10616
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:45 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Congratulations, Stupid.

Postby seemslikeadream » Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:14 pm

are yo saying that Trump will stop killing people?

Run, Run for Your Lives!


Image




ByJOSH MARSHALLPublishedJULY 11, 2016, 7:53 PM EDT 41612 Views
In recent editions of the Trump for President Dumpster Fire reality show, we've been seeing the name of retired Gen. Michael Flynn, former head of the Defense Intelligence Agency who was forced out in 2014 over policy clashes with Obama administration officials and went on to become a top Obama critic since leaving the military. He has reportedly been an informal campaign foreign policy advisor to Donald Trump for some time now. Now he's rapidly emerged as a leading vice presidential contender. It seems so serious that after yesterday saying that he was pro-choice and creating a instant firestorm on the right, he today 'clarified' that he's actually pro-life.

But enough of all that, stop the presses: I've just uncovered information that almost certainly proves that Flynn is completely nuts.

You may have seen mention that Flynn is the author of a book called Field of Fight about ISIS and the war on terror. So far, so good. But wait. Look at the highlighted portion of the cover here!



He cowrote this book with Michael Ledeen!

If you know who Michael Ledeen is, I probably don't have to say anymore.

If you don't, Michael Ledeen he is a PhD in history and philosophy who's been kicking around DC for decades, playing a minor but significant role in the Iran-Contra scandal but generally remaining on the fringes of the neoconservative foreign policy movement because his ideas are too dark, too cynical and too fascistic.

In case you think I'm using the word loosely, not at all. Ledeen is genuinely a man of ideas and letters. It's just that the ideas tend to be a bit evil or post-moral in a functionally equivalent way. Ledeen's key intellectual influence was the Italian fascism or neo-fascism he came into contact with during his time in Italy during the 1970s. Without getting too deep into the story, Ledeen was part of a movement to distinguish 'fascism' as a set of ideas, an intellectual movement from the fascist dictatorship of Benito Mussolini. A bit further afield this was an effort to distinguish between Mussolini's fascist movement from the national socialist movement of Adolf Hitler to the north - an argument that is not without some true merit.

Ledeen's mission was to salvage what he took to be the revolutionary and liberationist core of fascism from the historiographical and ideological disgrace to which it has largely been consigned for decades. If you're interested in more you can look up names like Giovanni Gentile, Gabriele D'Annunzio and a whole list of others, some genuine thinkers, others craven lickspittles. In any case, without putting too fine a point on it or being too arch, much of Ledeen's life's work has been dedicated to creating what lefty historians sometimes call a 'usable past' for fascism.

Of course, people are interested in a lot of things and there are some interesting poets and philosophers on the fringes of the early fascist movement. Mussolini himself is a fascinating figure - brilliant in many ways though I think fundamentally an opportunist and frequently a charlatan. If these were mere intellectual pursuits it would be one thing. But Ledeen's signature qualities during almost four decades in Washington have been the profoundest cynicism, arcane conspiracy theory creation and a generalized desire to embroil the US in foreign wars. Through much of the aughts he was most memorably known as the author of a wild conspiracy theory that held that basically all terrorism, across all sectarian, national and ideological divides was run by a series of interconnected 'terrorism families' on the model of the 1950s era La Cosa Nostra.

He was, as I mentioned, a key player in the Iraq-Contra scandal, a major advocate of the Iraq War who managed to end up arranging secret meetings in Rome in late 2001 between Iran-Contra figure Manucher Ghorbanifar and Bush administration officials looking for evidence against Saddam Hussein. That whole latter episode is still too little explained or understood.

In a fascinating touch, back in May Ledeen was attacking critics like Robert Kagan who were calling Trump 'fascist' but, in a notable and predictable twist, on the theory that Trump wasn't really good enough for the fascist label. "For Mr. Kagan (surprisingly and disappointingly praised by Bret Stephens)," writes Ledeen, "fascism is little more than any political movement led by a charismatic strong man ... Mr. Kagan doesn’t discuss the revolutionary aspect of fascism. Italian fascists claimed to be able to unleash the creative powers of a “new fascist man,” while the Nazis advocated the superiority of the Aryan race. Neither concept is to be found anywhere in Trumpism either in theory or practice."

Basically, if you see an idea and it looks sensible but find out Ledeen is involved, it's definitely not sensible and is in fact probably some harebrained plan half crazy, half evil that you want nothing to do with. When Ledeen's involved, there's always trouble.

I haven't read Flynn's book. But the fact that he co-wrote the book with Ledeen - and since Flynn is a retired general and Ledeen an accomplished writer I figure it's largely Ledeen's work - he must either be in the thrall of various wild and dangerous ideas or under the malign influence of someone who is the generator of various wild and dangerous ideas.

Seriously, if Flynn's in with Ledeen, he's trouble.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/run ... your-lives
Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
User avatar
seemslikeadream
 
Posts: 32090
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:28 pm
Location: into the black
Blog: View Blog (83)

Re: Congratulations, Stupid.

Postby dada » Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:18 pm

You're right about one thing, brekin. I am the system.

I'm cold, unfeeling. I simply don't care. A machine, swallowing the seas, grinding up the earth.

The Book of the Way and Bill Gates say 'keep their minds empty, and their stomachs full.'

I say fuck that noise. Keep the heart empty, and the gun full.

What else.

I'm society. I love money. The smell of gasoline. Kitty skulls. And every day is Halloween.

I work. And when I'm done, I work. Sometimes I post on RI in between. I don't know what brings me here. It's like Close Encounters. I'm shaping my mashed potatoes into devil's tower.

I'm just one person, breathing on one small planet, sitting cross-legged in one small room, posting on one message board. I'm not history's hidden reactor.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
User avatar
dada
 
Posts: 2600
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:08 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Congratulations, Stupid.

Postby OP ED » Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:20 pm

brekin » Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:23 pm wrote:
OP ED wrote:
brekin » Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:52 pm wrote:
OP ED » Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:44 pm wrote:So you trust electronic voting?

Did it count your vote right? It did mine.

Based on what evidence?


You know, numbers. This site, like numerous sites, has election results down to the county.
http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/national.php

That one even has pre-election poll data from three different polls.
Do you see anything amiss?
Clinton was projected ahead by 2%, 46% to Trump 44% in Michigan.
Clinton ended up losing by 03% there.
Say you live there.
Hey, how did you and all your friends vote again?


I'm talking about exit polls. Which discrepancies are used by, for example, the state department to determine whether a country's elections look legitimate and will be officially recognized by the US. Ours don't pass our own tests. This is an ongoing and well researched issue with numerous threads here devoted to it, including one on the top half of the first page of this forum. You can't have been here this long and be unaware of this.
Giustizia mosse il mio alto fattore:
fecemi la divina podestate,
la somma sapienza e 'l primo amore.

:: ::
S.H.C.R.
User avatar
OP ED
 
Posts: 4673
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:04 pm
Location: Detroit
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Congratulations, Stupid.

Postby OP ED » Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:22 pm

What I am saying, in case this is unclear is that HRC's official position on our results would be not to recognize them. If we were say, Ukraine.
Giustizia mosse il mio alto fattore:
fecemi la divina podestate,
la somma sapienza e 'l primo amore.

:: ::
S.H.C.R.
User avatar
OP ED
 
Posts: 4673
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:04 pm
Location: Detroit
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Congratulations, Stupid.

Postby KUAN » Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:28 pm

Just stop arguing and work towards getting a proportional rep system. What’s the point of voting for something you hate in order to not get something you hate more
Now’s the time:
Trump will fuck it up, so left and right will be softened up for a change

- Great society in turmoil - kiwi sinks below see, no sea, level while giving advice - American remembers something he heard and decides to act on it - cockroaches - cockroahes later
KUAN
 
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:17 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Congratulations, Stupid.

Postby OP ED » Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:40 pm

My point was that you can't vote for a proportions system in the States where it matters most if they don't count your votes to begin with and voting for liberals is your whole strategy.
Giustizia mosse il mio alto fattore:
fecemi la divina podestate,
la somma sapienza e 'l primo amore.

:: ::
S.H.C.R.
User avatar
OP ED
 
Posts: 4673
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:04 pm
Location: Detroit
Blog: View Blog (0)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests