The Liberals Thread

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Re: The Liberals Thread

Postby dada » Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:49 pm

Morty wrote:]Foibles, Fables and Failures
The Financial Press and its Keepers
James Petras • November 23, 2016


I enjoyed the attack on the 'financial press' part, that was fun.

What disappoints me with this article, is that it isn't just a 'critique of bankrupt liberalism,' it's a defense of the right. It isn't as if either side should get a pass, and it isn't as if the right doesn't have a media/press/thinktank machine that serves the same purpose as the financial press: Maintaining the narrative of the 'great consumer capitalist power structure,' the last, best, and only hope for the future of humanity.

And these types of pieces lose me at the whole 'zionist-soros nexus of power' thing. That's a real hang up on the right, I understand.

For all the flair for wordsmithery the writer has, it ends up striking me as just another salvo in the war of the "suburban middle class professionals."
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: The Liberals Thread

Postby JackRiddler » Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:26 pm

2. From electoral losers to street putschists, the speculators and their whiny media mouthpieces strive to overthrow the election process. Against the tens of millions of free voters, the speculators bankrolled a few thousands demonstrators, drunk with their own delusions of starting a color-coded ‘Manhattan Spring’ to overthrow the elected President. Decked out in black ‘anarchist chic’, the window vandals and historically illiterate students were energized by George Soros’ promise to replicate the putsches in Kiev and Tbilisi. They took to the streets, cracked a few some windows and signed thousands of ‘on-line petitions’ (while denouncing Trump as the ‘Second Coming of Kristalnacht’). The media magnified the theatrics as a sort of uprising to restore their loser-emancipator to the throne - the bleery-eyed Jean D’Arc of the Hedge Funds. The losers lost and Hillary will hopefully retire to count her millions. The stock market soared to record heights.


Yeah, pretty much Nazi-level propaganda. A mind like this could never just say, as a conventional right-wing person might: "Oh look, a bunch of dirty hippies, ha ha, I disagree with them but they're on the streets expressing their constitutionally protected rights and tonight they will go home." No, expressions of dissent by the street rabble are intolerable! Spontaneous? Impossible! Nothing could be a demonstration of angry, actual people (I mean, besides the mobs beating protesters at Trump rallies, they're okay).

No, if there are people demonstrating in New York City -- where did so many of them come from in such a tiny town? -- then a Jew must be financing it!

Not for the first time, I must ask: Where's my goddamn Soros check? How come I never get it?

I had forgotten how much of an asshole James Petras is. Or hadn't had the displeasure of reading in a while. See, I'm not in an echo chamber after all, and I'd read this fellow enough times to know him, and then no longer wasted my time. Now that I've been treated again: Can't say he's disappointing expectations.

And wait, this is an RI post? Do you know what the stock market always does, after it "soars to record heights"? Same guy who's writing a condemnation of the "liberal" business press hasn't figured that out? A four-times bankrupt, money-laundering "billion-dollar-loss" gangster like Trump is well aware. Crashes are where his kind cash in. Or has your Fuehrer repealed the course of financial history?

But hey, it's okay, it's all team sports, right Morty? Fuck understanding anything, right? Everything's just a move to watch and cheer or boo.

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Re: The Liberals Thread

Postby Morty » Sun Nov 27, 2016 12:46 am

Dada, Petras is a leftist (as am I, fwiw, if anyone was thinking otherwise), and I guess what he's saying amounts to some kind of defense of the right, but to look at it that way is to put events out of sequence. Why did the left think it was in any way acceptable to tolerate Clinton as a candidate? That is the initial question, and since it hasn't been answered it remains the only question. "Why does it look as if are Petras and Morty are supporting Trump?" is a spurious question, poorly conceived, because we're not into that sort of thing. We just want to know why the left thought it was in any way acceptable to tolerate Clinton as a candidate.

More from another Petras essay (whom I don't read that often, but am currently thinking I should take the time to read more of, btw):
No serious observer minimally aware of Clinton’s carnal embrace of multiple simultaneous disastrous and destructive wars in Ukraine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Syria and Libya, could possibly support her - unless if they are convinced that a greater danger looms on the horizon and “we have to defeat fascist Trump at all cost”? No serious democrat or wage and salaried employee can ignore Madame Clinton’s role as Wall Street’s most shameless pimp unless they ‘believe’ that a loud-mouth New York ‘fascist is worse than Wall Street’.

The phony scaremongering about Trump’s “fascism” just serves to cover up Clinton’s most servile promotion of traitorous wars for the benefit of Israel. One should envision the thousands of desperate Syrian refugees clinging to decrepit boats in the Mediterranean when reading excerpts of Clinton’s private e-mails: According to WikiLeaks, Hillary declared that “the best way to help Israel deal with Iran’s growing nuclear capability (sic) is to help (sic) the people of Syria overthrow the regime of Bashar Assad. … The fall of the House of Assad could well ignite a sectarian war between the Shiites and the majority Sunnis of the region drawing in Iran, which, in the view of Israeli commanders would not be a bad thing for Israel and its Western allies”. Not a bad thing for Israel - but a cruel and criminal policy against a sovereign nation and multi-ethnic society. Madame Clinton followed through with these demented pronouncements, which can only be viewed as genocidal! Clinton promoted the most violent proxy war, uprooting over half of the civilian population of Syria and killing hundreds of thousands, while shredding a sovereign nation. She thus pandered to her Israeli mentors and Pluto-Zionist funders.

To justify backing a serial war monger, a US Secretary of State who has served Israel’s interests, and a politician who has carnalized her ‘feminist principles’ with Wall Street billionaires, Hillary Clinton’s smarmy supporters have had to invent an opponent who is even worse: Creating and then denouncing “Trump the Fascist” serves as a backdoor justification for supporting a proven political psychopath!


Jack, ad hominem, yada, yada. There's nothing I can do to make you feel better. I can't change the election result. And I wouldn't if I could, either. This is the fast track to political change. What more could a concerned world citizen ask for?

And no, regarding the US domestic landscape, I don't care if the Trump experiment (the experiment I had absolutely no say in or control over) goes horribly wrong, but I would choose that it didn't if I did have any sway in the matter. I don't see why Americans should feel deserving of any more sympathetic consideration than that at this point in history.

Do I find it entertaining? Is it a crime if I do?? I don't see it as even a character fault that I derive some enjoyment out of watching events unfold. Much better that America must endure Trump than the world be expected to endure Hillary.
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Re: The Liberals Thread

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Nov 27, 2016 1:58 am

"Ad hominem"? Would you like a sample?

You are a member of the Trump campaign calling yourself a "leftist" online and receiving payments from the Koch brothers to spread James Petras' lies about the anti-Trump protesters in New York.

I have 10,000 times the proof of this assertion and 10,000 times the reason to surmise it and claim it than Petras does in his odious claim that George Soros paid for the New York protests (by many of my friends, sadly I was occupied elsewhere). I have 10,000 times the proof that you get money from the Kochs than Petras does that these protests were engineered covertly by some power elite. 10,000 times zero equals zero. Therefore anything Petras or I or you fabricate completely and post here is equally valid, in the post-truth spirit. He, however, has a system, a consistent master narrative he'll clothe as "anti-Zionist," and it's no coincidence that he throws Soros in everywhere where Soros is not present.

If you don't like that, perhaps you are the one who should reconsider what you are doing. Shame on you.

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Re: The Liberals Thread

Postby Morty » Sun Nov 27, 2016 4:13 am

Sure, the protests were for the most part spontaneous. I'm not going to die in a ditch defending Petras's accusations against Soros, but however untrue they are, what difference does that make to the rest of his argument? (We've all been guilty of believing things that turned out to be crack-fueled fantasies, Petras included, and if we haven't, we're not trying hard enough to get at the truth. And this particular "fear of Soros" isn't that unhealthy a delusion to have if one day it means an engineered revolution is stymied and democratic processes are upheld.) Cherrypicking his weakest claims and ranking him up there with the Nazis on that basis doesn't do anything to dismantle the rest of it. Not that I'm requesting a thorough rebuttal. We can agree to disagree and save ourselves some energy. Thoughtful argument is welcome. Wounded rants, not so much.
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Re: The Liberals Thread

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Nov 27, 2016 5:47 am

What difference would it make if I accused you, morty, of a major crime that would get you falsely arrested, but did so as a side-note to an otherwise flawless analysis of society? (Not that Petras delivers anything of the sort, but for the sake of the argument, let's pretend.) That's not a cherry I picked, that's a poison pill in your tasty drink. With malice aforethought. A bad actor at work, who doesn't care if he's lying in the service of his mission. And I don't say he's a Nazi or morally equivalent to them. I say his claim is like Nazi propaganda, because it is: Protesters against Trump are degenerates financed by the Jew behind everything and stage-managed by the media corps.
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Re: The Liberals Thread

Postby Morty » Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:36 am

I don't know for sure if he's consciously lying, duped, or substantially correct in the accusations he makes against Soros, so there's not much point in me commenting on that any further.

Is Soros a perfectly innocent party in your view, or do you believe there are some significant instances where he is in fact guilty as accused?
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Re: The Liberals Thread

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Nov 27, 2016 2:42 pm

Morty » Sun Nov 27, 2016 6:36 am wrote:I don't know for sure if he's consciously lying, duped, or substantially correct in the accusations he makes against Soros, so there's not much point in me commenting on that any further.


Anything goes then. Post-truth. Go team!

Is Soros a perfectly innocent party in your view, or do you believe there are some significant instances where he is in fact guilty as accused?


Relevance to this discussion? Zero.
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Re: The Liberals Thread

Postby Morty » Sun Nov 27, 2016 3:57 pm

JackRiddler wrote:
Is Soros a perfectly innocent party in your view, or do you believe there are some significant instances where he is in fact guilty as accused?


Relevance to this discussion? Zero.


Said the guy hurling the "post truth" slurs.
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Re: The Liberals Thread

Postby JackRiddler » Sun Nov 27, 2016 5:21 pm

If someone made up a story that the Bush family personally pads your bank account, and you denied it, would this mean you were defending the Bush family? Would the next move in the sophistry be to ask you to take a position on the Bush family?

Since Petras made up a lie about the anti-Trump protests, Soros merely comes in as a bogeyman, and what he is or isn't is irrelevant.

Of course, I have taken a position on that, which is of interest if not relevant to the present discussion.

The Soros Thread
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39996&start=30#p610443
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Re: The Liberals Thread

Postby Morty » Sun Nov 27, 2016 6:08 pm

Thanks, Jack. Soros is on my to-do list.
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Re: The Liberals Thread

Postby dada » Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:00 am

Morty » Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:46 pm wrote:Why did the left think it was in any way acceptable to tolerate Clinton as a candidate?


It looks to me like the left didn't tolerate Clinton. She lost because the left didn't turn out to vote for her. Obama was a disappointment, the left is disenfranchised by the whole Bernie thing, and there you go. No Clinton. Democrats are the center-right.

For me, tacit support for Clinton was the obvious choice. Both candidates are figureheads of a system I don't respect. It's a war and money machine, and neither of them will change that. So issues like a woman's right to choose are things that actually matter here.

Plus, I don't like trolls. Donald and his pals are trolls. Therefore, I don't support him.

This is me, though. I'm not the left, I way further left than the left.

edited to add: I've decided that perhaps 'Donald and his pals are trolls' is too strong of a statement, and at the same time too nebulous.

'Donald snuggles up to trolls,' is better in the context of this post. He's a troll-snuggler. I don't support it.

I'll leave whether or not Donald himself is a troll as a philosophical question for others to debate.
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Re: The Liberals Thread

Postby semper occultus » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:08 am

Blame the identity apostles – they led us down this path to populism

Simon Jenkins Thursday 1 December 2016 07.30 GMT

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/dec/01/blame-trump-brexit-identity-liberalism

I have no tribe. I have no comfort blanket, no default button that enables me to join the prevailing hysteria and cry in unison, “Of course, it’s all the fault of X.” Meanwhile we everywhere see the familiar landscape clouding over. There are new partings of the ways, disoriented soldiers wandering the battlefield, licking wounds. The liberal centre cannot hold. It cries with Yeats, “What rough beast, its hour come round at last, / Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?”

I confess I find all this somehow exhilarating. Cliches of left and right have lost all meaning, and institutions their certainty. Even in France and Italy, European union is falling from grace. A rightwing US president wins an election by appealing to the left. In Britain, Ukip can plausibly claim to be supplanting Labour. A Tory prime minister attacks capitalism, while Labour supports Trident. Small wonder Castro gave up and died.

Conventional wisdom holds that it is the “centre left” that has lost the plot. The howls that greeted Brexit, Donald Trump and Europe’s new right are those of liberals tossed from the moral high ground they thought they owned. Worse, their evictors were not the familiar bogeys of wealth and privilege, but an oppressed underclass that had the effrontery to refer to a “liberal establishment elite”.

Paul Krugman, field-marshal of an American left, stood last week on his battered tank, the New York Times, and wailed of Trump’s voters: “I don’t fully understand this resentment.” Why don’t the poor blame the conservatives? He had to assume the answer lay in the new Great Explanation, the politics of “identity liberalism”. He is right. It is 20 years since the philosopher Richard Rorty predicted that a Trump-like “strong man” would emerge to express how “badly educated Americans feel about having their manners dictated to them by college graduates”.

This prediction has now gone viral. Likewise, the historian Arthur Schlesinger warned that a rising campus intolerance, of “offence crimes” and “political correctness”, would endanger America’s national glue, its collective liberal consciousness.

The latest guru on the “what Trump means” circuit is the US political psychologist Jonathan Haidt. Conversing with Nick Clegg at an Intelligence Squared event in London last week, he was asked over and again the Krugman question: “Why did poor people vote rightwing?” The answer was simple. There is no longer a “right wing”, or a left. There are nations and there are tribes within nations, both growing ever more assertive.

To Haidt, Trump’s appeal is to groups alienated by competing groups. Identity liberalism elevated the “sacred victim”, uncriticisable ethnic minorities, women, gay people and migrants, to whom Hillary Clinton explicitly deferred in every speech. Thus to favour one group is to exclude another, in this case the so-called “left-behinders”, identified as the “pale, stale, male – and failed”.

In America, as in Europe, older, white men are the only group that liberals can abuse and exclude with impunity. It is a group clearly dominant in small towns and rust belts, gazing out at far-off cities, globalised, digitised, college-educated and “correctly” liberal. The poorest place in America with a non-Hispanic white majority, Clay County in Kentucky, voted 87% for Trump. For Clinton’s liberals, ignoring these people was a category error, one that could change the course of western politics.

Last week, the US academic Mark Lilla joined the why-Trump? circuit with an analysis of identity liberalism as “a kind of moral panic about racial, gender and sexual identity”. It granted selective rights and privileges, but never duties. “Expressive, not persuasive … it distorted liberalism’s message and prevented it from becoming a unifying force.”

Lilla is scathing of the “whitelash” excuse, which licenses liberals to abuse those voting for Trump and Brexit as racists, and political correctness as yet another rightwing conspiracy. To him, these voters are poor people who fear for the integrity of their communities and see globalism as a mis-selling scam. They may be wrong, but they’re not evil.

Across the Atlantic, this onset of electoral realpolitik has created a discourse. Trump may indeed be a nightmare, but what shall we do about it? In Britain, liberalism shows no such intellectual robustness, rather a denial clothed in hysteria. The attempt by the remain tribe to undo June’s Brexit vote is ludicrous, a sign not of bad losers but of stupid ones. They should fight for soft-Brexit, not no-Brexit.

For myself, I cheer as people protest that it no longer “means” anything to be left or right, liberal or conservative. If the left is so lacking in confidence it needs to launder itself as “progressive”, that is fine by me. But I just want to kick over the tables, rip up the rule books, get on with the debate. I want to re-enact the glorious revolution of 1832.

As for the future, commentators such as Haidt and Lilla seek a “post-identity” liberalism, built round a restoration of the nation state as repository of agreed values. This may mean accepting such majority concerns as the pace of immigration. It is one thing to ask a small community to take in two Syrian families, but impose 200 and liberalism will have an eternally uphill struggle.

There is always a balance to be struck in any community, between its right to order its own identity and a wider obligation to welcome strangers, particularly refugees. Even Poland’s Europhile Donald Tusk admitted this year that the EU had been wrong to pursue an unqualified belief in “a utopia of a Europe without nation states”.

British liberals, of whatever party, have spent the past six months fleeing one trauma after another, hurling insults over their shoulders. But as John Stuart Mill said: “He who knows only his own side of a case, knows little of that.”

The apostles of identity liberalism have fallen into Mill’s trap. They see authoritarianism in others, but not in themselves. They see discrimination in others, but not their own. In guarding their chosen tribes, they fail democracy’s ultimate test, of tolerance for the concerns of those with whom they disagree. Someone else is always to blame.

Such tunnel vision has jeopardised the progress made by the cause of European liberalism over the past half-century. It has been given a bloody nose, and there are more on the way.
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Re: The Liberals Thread

Postby Jerky » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:52 am

Oh, to be so lucky as to not belong to a tribe.

Tell it to the Muslims, Blacks, Latinos, disabled and LGBTQ people who are going to suffer the slings and arrows of Trump's outrageous fortune at being the recipient of high level trickery handing him the reigns of power.

The above essay is worse than nonsense. It's vile, thoughtless nihilistic voyeuristic and the ultimate declaration of the perversity of privilege.

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Re: The Liberals Thread

Postby Morty » Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:30 am

I liked it. In fact I found myself looking for the like button as I read it. No wonder Jeff has fucked off to facebook. Must be why. Place is shit without like buttons.
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