What is #Pizzagate?

[liminalOyster]

I'm stlll agnostic about #pg so this is just an anecdote:

One of the leaked Podesta emails bears the subject line: FW: "Thelema" - a Favor.

At first glance, this is an almost heart-stopping find for all the obvious reasons and because of the presence of blood and semen in Abramovic's spirit cooking. Not surprisingly, Google spits back at least two pages of material from GodLikeProductions type websites, all of which are off to the races with the assumption. It's entirely unchecked but it's apparently taken as an open/shut case of evidence for occult crime.

Yet, as it turns out, the author of the email is Greek (last name is "Demos" and other emails refer to his and his wife's Greek heritage) and the phrase thelema in Greek means the "will, wish, desire" of god. News to me, btw. But news that took me less than two minutes to find.

If wide-eyed kids (and I'm not saying that's the only demographic at work here) can't be convinced that Hillary Clinton or John Podesta more than likely are not using 4ch@n slang when they order a cheese pizza, it doesn't bode well for things like this that requires, well, a little bit of work. I won't be surprised if something comes out about Podesta or even Alefantis in time but at this point I have to admit I am equally so and genuinely frightened by this new army of truthers who don't seem to recognize that they have a basic responsibility to assume every new piece of info may just be confirmation bias until proven otherwise.

[Sweet Tooth]

[quote="[url=http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board2/viewtopic.php?p=623908#p623908]guruilla » Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:55 pm[/url]"]Question for those posters who consider #Pizzagate 90% bullshit or "mostly debunked": how do you view the widespread censorship of PG-related investigations/theories on the Net, at reddit, Facebook, YouTube, & elsewhere, that began even before the "shooting' incident at CPP?
[/quote]

Because they could see what was coming.

The potential for some bad mischief emanating from those online confines was pretty clear from the get-go.

[tapitsbo]

Arguably removing scrutiny from the on- and offline confines in DC may have been a major motive, too

[guruilla]

Question for those posters who consider #Pizzagate 90% bullshit or "mostly debunked": how do you view the widespread censorship of PG-related investigations/theories on the Net, at reddit, Facebook, YouTube, & elsewhere, that began even before the "shooting' incident at CPP?

Because they could see what was coming.

The potential for some bad mischief emanating from those online confines was pretty clear from the get-go.

Not sure what you mean. Who could see what was coming, what could they see, and how'd they use it?

Clarity of the essence here (note to tapitsbo, most gnomic of posters)

[MacCruiskeen]

I'm stlll agnostic about #pg so this is just an anecdote:

One of the leaked Podesta emails bears the subject line: FW: "Thelema" - a Favor.

At first glance, this is an almost heart-stopping find for all the obvious reasons and because of the presence of blood and semen in Abramovic's spirit cooking. Not surprisingly, Google spits back at least two pages of material from GodLikeProductions type websites, all of which are off to the races with the assumption. It's entirely unchecked but it's apparently taken as an open/shut case of evidence for occult crime.

Yet, as it turns out, the author of the email is Greek (last name is "Demos" and other emails refer to his and his wife's Greek heritage) and the phrase thelema in Greek means the "will, wish, desire" of god. News to me, btw. But news that took me less than two minutes to find.

If wide-eyed kids (and I'm not saying that's the only demographic at work here) can't be convinced that Hillary Clinton or John Podesta more than likely are not using 4ch@n slang when they order a cheese pizza, it doesn't bode well for things like this that requires, well, a little bit of work. I won't be surprised if something comes out about Podesta or even Alefantis in time but at this point I have to admit I am equally so and genuinely frightened by this new army of truthers who don't seem to recognize that they have a basic responsibility to assume every new piece of info may just be confirmation bias until proven otherwise.

That is a great post, liminalOyster. (And welcome to the board.)

I too have no trouble believing there are lots of high-level paedophiles in DC. But "Pizzagate" looks to me more and more like a horribly-effective spook distraction tactic, while those same spooks are plotting to block Trump, create a constitutional crisis, finger Putin as the destroyer of America's hitherto-flawless democracy, and go to war with Russia as planned.

That's the real horror in DC right now, and everyone is missing it because they've been successfully lured into a maze.

[MacCruiskeen]

The CIA are nothing if not highly-practiced experts in directing people's attention precisely where they want it to go. They are brilliant at forming public perceptions, and they have a zillion-dollar budget to do what they do so well. They are also experts at manipulating people's emotions: they know precisely which buttons to press.

In short: They didn't get where are today by being stupid. The (evil) genius of this "Pizzagate" scam is that it seduces people into thinking that they're looking precisely where the spooks don't want them to look, and that they are.-- therefore -- about to uncover the worst of the worst and bring down the liars in power.

Meanwhile, preparations for the worst of the worst are proceeding apace in DC and Langley VA, undisturbed by too much public attention or concern. See my post above.

That's how I see it, anyway. (And that's why I voted "Other".)

[Project Willow]

What has disturbed me the most about PG is fear that it will cause serous credibility problems for survivors and their allies.

I know Project Willow has expressed this concern also, but I haven't quite seen the logic of it. If PG was proven to be 100% fake, possibly, but that's not likely to happen. Nothing hurt the credibility of survivors more than the McMartin case and the whole Satanic Panic/Witch-Hunt counter-narrative; but this latter only emerged as a defense against the increased awareness of the reality of the claims. This derailing process, as I discussed recently while reviewing Cheit Witch-Hunt narrative, was probably initiated by the perpetrators themselves, both in terms of how they enacted their crimes (incredible/fantastic elements) and in terms of infiltrating the investigations and steering it towards more extreme interpretations and hysterical moralizing.

The same thing may be occurring with #Pizzagate, tho the key difference is that here there are no victim testimonies, and the spark that has ignited this fire is qualitatively different, and a lot easier to dismiss.

Internally inconsistent statement, fact didn't matter in that case, manufactured perception did well enough. With Pizzagate we don't need manufactured perception, it is demonstrably false. What could possibly be worse for victims and survivors than the revivification of satanic panic out of the bowels of recent history? With Pizzagate, we get an example of hysteria carried out in real time with the added bonus of crying wolf applied to any and all revelations hence forward.

Forget logic, here is the direct damage your frothing has wrought:

http://www.snopes.com/the-pizzagate-survivor/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/12/08/the-satanic-roots-of-pizzagate-how-a-30-year-old-sex-panic-explains-today/?utm_term=.8811098e1038
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/12/06/pizzagate-is-the-satanic-panic-of-our-age-but-this-time-the-president-s-men-believe-it.html
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/dispatches/2016/12/08/pizzagate-return-satanic-panic/
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2016/12/the_comet_ping_pong_pizzagate_scandal_is_a_child_sex_ring_myth_for_the_age.html
https://youtu.be/QcJ1wEtBOk0

If Pizzzgate weren't fake none of these assholes would have an excuse, including the last one, who is a freaking conspiracy researcher.

This disaster is another big win for the perps, but why should you care, you're not an "activist", you're just making art, right? Bullpucky. Your only goal is climbing the ladder of online disinfotainment success. Any time you are pressed on the issue of consequences you sidestep it with bullshit philosophy. You are cavalierly fucking with people's lives with the excuse that you're making art, then you have the gall to call out other artists for contributing to the debasement of society. You are a goddamn hypocrite and wittingly or not, you are serving the perps.

There, I said it.

[Grizzly]

https://youtu.be/pXd2t7Y2McE?list=FLMUE ... EmQJVqSLJQ

[guruilla]

There, I said it.

You sure did, PW.

But what exactly did you say? Powerful emotions =/= strong arguments.

I get that you don't like me (the feeling is mutual); I understand that you are triggered (or "triggered") by most of what I write here (I've no idea if you've ever paid attention to anything I do outside of RI), and (it seems) by my mere presence at the board. I get the strong impression that it's a territorial thing for you, that you don't like my having any influence here, and that you hope to undermine that influence by wielding the authority you have here, no matter how unfairly, how reactively, how irrationally or viciously.

I am sure the above post came out of you in a stream of strong feeling, so hopefully that was cathartic for you. But it's not an argument, it's only an opinion expressed fiercely and (I guess) you're hoping people will be too intimidated by your fury to question it, too cowed or wowed by your "status" at the board as the resident survivor activist. Your post is a personal attack on me without any logical argument behind it, much less anything to substantiate it. It's a serious accusation that's unbacked by evidence, like your claim that #Pizzagate is "demonstrably false." It's also against the rules at RI, something that, as an ex-mod, you ought to be aware of, tho I doubt you'll get challenged for it (survivor privileges? If so, they only extend to some; or one).

I wonder if you even know what a disservice you are doing to other survivors (including some who no longer post at this board) with your thinly concealed condemnation of anyone who doesn't adhere to your criteria of how a survivor should behave or communicate? I guess it upsets you that I'm not frightened of your judgement and so won't bend to your will. However disturbing your behavior might be (I would think to anyone at this point), your condemnation means nothing to me: not because I don't care about you (I do, though God knows you make it hard), but because you aren't seeing or addressing me, at all. You never have. Something in me signals a threat to you, and as far as i can tell that's all you have ever seen me as, an imaginary threat. Since I know it's imaginary, I also know it's 100% in you, and what's being expressed above is self-condemnation (something that, as a survivor, I know all too well).

[OP ED]

Not really. You give off a familiar creepy vibration. Like a bug zapper. It's why I don't like you even though I agree with many of your points. I don't discuss these things often because they're hard to articulate. Something in the cadence bothers me.

[Heaven Swan]

There, I said it.

You sure did, PW.

But what exactly did you say? Powerful emotions =/= strong arguments.

I get that you don't like me (the feeling is mutual); I understand that you are triggered (or "triggered") by most of what I write here (I've no idea if you've ever paid attention to anything I do outside of RI), and (it seems) by my mere presence at the board. I get the strong impression that it's a territorial thing for you, that you don't like my having any influence here, and that you hope to undermine that influence by wielding the authority you have here, no matter how unfairly, how reactively, how irrationally or viciously.

I am sure the above post came out of you in a stream of strong feeling, so hopefully that was cathartic for you. But it's not an argument, it's only an opinion expressed fiercely and (I guess) you're hoping people will be too intimidated by your fury to question it, too cowed or wowed by your "status" at the board as the resident survivor activist. Your post is a personal attack on me without any logical argument behind it, much less anything to substantiate it. It's a serious accusation that's unbacked by evidence, like your claim that #Pizzagate is "demonstrably false." It's also against the rules at RI, something that, as an ex-mod, you ought to be aware of, tho I doubt you'll get challenged for it (survivor privileges? If so, they only extend to some; or one).

I wonder if you even know what a disservice you are doing to other survivors (including some who no longer post at this board) with your thinly concealed condemnation of anyone who doesn't adhere to your criteria of how a survivor should behave or communicate? I guess it upsets you that I'm not frightened of your judgement and so won't bend to your will. However disturbing your behavior might be (I would think to anyone at this point), your condemnation means nothing to me: not because I don't care about you (I do, though God knows you make it hard), but because you aren't seeing or addressing me, at all. You never have. Something in me signals a threat to you, and as far as i can tell that's all you have ever seen me as, an imaginary threat. Since I know it's imaginary, I also know it's 100% in you, and what's being expressed above is self-condemnation (something that, as a survivor, I know all too well).

Please reread your post Guruilla. It's one big personal attack on Project Willow. And acciusing her of just wanting to express her "strong feeling" in order to vent is a low blow. She sited 6 references to back up what she is stating.

The fact that you can't seem to fathom how the hysteria around PG and its' lack of evidence to stand on could negatively impact the credibility of victims past, present and future and instead go on about petty and imaginary board politics indicates to me that you don't really care about the victims.

[Burnt Hill]

Words spoken with passion,
born of experience,
tempered by knowledge.
Are words of truth and wisdom.
Thank goodness they are spoken.

[liminalOyster]

Just another example (that I wrote but decided not to post there) of how piss-poor the "investigation" over at Voat et al is.

Some intrepid journalist wrote this:

The truly strange part is that James Alefantis (Comet Pizza owner) is emailing John Podesta at 10:37 PM (a full hour after Comet is closed) on a Thursday night when the restaurant is closed and asking if he is coming over to Comet (the subject line). Why in the world would they meet after hours at the restaurant? https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/58301

I wrote:

Well, assh-le, it took me about 60 seconds to discover that 1) the actual time of the email based on the header was 8:37 pm. Some sort of WL glitch likely offsets the date by two time zones, turning this into 10:37 but the header is always more accurate. Click on “View Source” on the link above and check for yourself.

Next, go here: https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/14395 and you’ll find that on the previous Saturday 9/27/8, Alefantis wrote to Podesta to say:

Some young lawyer type friends of mine are hosting an Obama Fundraiser at Comet Ping Pong on Thursday Night and then watching the debate. Should be about 150 people and they are raising between 25 and 35 thousand dollars. Would you be willing to stop by around 8 o'clock or so and make a little speech. They (and I) would be thrilled to have you of course. I understand if you are not available.

Thursday night = 10/2/8, the day of the "truly strange" set of events you mentioned

Podesta replies:

I can probably get there around 8:30.

So when Alefantis writes back at 8:37 pm to say

Tell me you are arriving. Xoxo, James

It makes total, perfect fucking sense that he’s checking in on the guy about to show up to give a speech at a banal political fundraiser.

From what I've seen there is zero interest in digging and especially if it reveals the OPs have made false assumptions. In another exchange, a group email asking for HRC office member's lunch orders (at 11:30 am on a Friday, aka lunch-time), to which HRC responds "hot dog with no bun" is interpreted by multiple people (and upvoted by others) as a coded request for a "eunuch sex-slave."

Is this really unchecked credulity? Hard to believe.

To be blunt, I don't even think (but it's possible) this is XYZ agency doing perception management. I think it's a bullying game in which a collection of trolls is playing a game of taunting the gullible into increasingly further out "interpretation." If that's true, I feel a little better.

I categorically share others wariness that this is going to undermine future exposes of real crimes. But in a sense we are now so far past ridiculous (at least in their acceptable "research" protocol that it may be a moot point. It may be that the more challenging aspects of other events look perfectly well believable in comparison.

PS. Apologies for formatting glitches - just a newb trying to get a hang of this forum's interface. BTW, I'm not going to link to the source over there as I don't want to drive traffic to their vicious anti-semitic / anti-LGBTQ nonsense. Most recently they've been posting photos of random drag queens and trans people and talking about how they're disgusting, etc. Yesterday saw a spam campaign by some asshole trying to prove that jews created satanic music, etc

[Grizzly]

Spoiler:

Not really. You give off a familiar creepy vibration.

Wtf?!?

You don't speak for me. Nor (dare I say it , can you speak for anyone else here) At best you can say, "Not really. You give off a familiar creepy vibration, to me" (op ed). Singulair. Not for the group in general.
Someone needs read some, ontology fordescriptive linguistics..

[Novem5er]

I find it quite amusing that people refuting the idea that Pizzagate is another case of Satanic Panic are people who, in previous threads, have expressed that the original Satanic Panic was a legitimate issue.

Sorry, I've yet to be convinced of either. Pizzagate started with some interesting (if terrifying) coincidences and accusations, and there still might be something there, but the further it went along, the more "evidence" that was added, the more those original ideas started to feel false. I use the word "feel' on purpose because all of this is based on feelings. There is no shred of evidence, of guilt or innocence, on either side.

I keep seeing Guruilla and others in difference spaces (FB, etc) say that people dismiss the weaker evidence but fail to address the stronger evidence. Yet, I've not seen that stronger evidence posted. It's always buried under pages of other arguments, and then when discovered, feels to me like more weak evidence. The picture of the girl with her hands taped the table? Weak evidence that people always seem to bring back up as evidence none the less.

Christ, do people not have families or know families? People take "funny" pictures of their kids quite frequently, even if I don't usually find the photos funny myself. I have seen pictures of friends' and family's kids in dog kennels, with their mouths taped shut, tied up like a damsel on railroad tracks, dressed in drag, in prisoner Halloween costumes, murder-clown costumes, on "kid" leashes, etc, etc. This isn't MY version of humor, and I've never done such things with my children, but I'm a sensitive soul. Other people are not so sensitive and their off-colour humor is just that . . . not evidence of organized child crime.

That said, I find the people around Pizzagate creepy. That's how this started. There is always enough of a "feeling" about people that rings true, which is how these things grow and spread. There could be something to it. I find the non-pizzagate evidence, like the Haiti children stuff, much more compelling . . . but would it ever have been seen in that light without the taint of Pizzagate? Can false accusations lead to REAL accusations if people keep digging? Maybe, but all the earlier "cry wolf" moments then cast a shadow of doubt over the real stuff until the two are hard to separate.

Which is entirely Project Willow's point, I believe.

I suspect Guruilla has me on Ignore from a previous argument of ours months ago. If so, I hate to call him out specifically because he would not have the opportunity to react (through self-induced censorship). Regardless, I will say that our earlier argument was very similar to this. I admit that I have not seen as much snark and righteous indignation as I saw in our previous argument (anyone remember or care about the CERN "murder"? LOL), but the pattern is the same. Guruilla will spend 1,000 words asking a lot of questions without really saying anything concrete, but when anyone attempts to answer those questions (or question his questions!) the poster is simply dismissed.