The Brexit thread

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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:45 pm

My Mum made an observation the other night which I thought was pretty insightful. The poorer folk in the North of England seem to have fallen pretty hardcore for UKIP - we won't see just how hard until the next GE rolls around - and voted Leave by surprising margins. Most areas anyway.

One noticeable exception was Liverpool. What's different about Liverpool? They haven't been reading The Sun now for going on thirty years...

Rupert, yi old devil ye! I kind of hoped he'd back a Yes vote in 2014, as his revenge against the vassals who allowed him to be held accountable by the Leveson inquiry, but it seems like Brexit was his preferred legacy. What a guy.
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby FourthBase » Sat Aug 06, 2016 4:09 pm

The Soldiers of Odin-style far right and the ISIS/Daesh-style Islamists have many beliefs and long-term aims in common, but perhaps the thing that brings them closest together is that they both believe in a secret and hidden wellspring of enthusiastic support for them that lies untapped within their host communities. Just waiting to be unleashed. They both believe that it will only take a trigger event, or series of them, to set the righteous reckoning in motion, and get the vast majority of normies cleaving to one side or the other. The scary thing is that they are probably both right.


Sounds a lot like the far left, too. "The masses have nothing to lose but their chains, they just don't realize it yet, so they don't like us, but they will, once [insert event] happens." And I suppose in the aftermath of the glorious revolution, the host communities (or hometown communities, as the case may be, ahem) will forget shit like that time when they were thrown under the bus in favor of the E-fucking-U by their intellectually superior comrades.
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby seemslikeadream » Mon Aug 08, 2016 5:16 pm

The Brexit wild card? Ireland.

A flag for the Republic of Ireland has to mark the mostly invisible border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. (Photo by William Booth/The Washington Post) (William Booth/TWP)
By William Booth August 8 at 4:19 PM
CULLAVILLE, Northern Ireland — Back during the Troubles, the border here was a treacherous place, a briar patch of watchtowers and customs posts, and rough smuggling clans and lethal Irish Republican Army cells.

A generation ago? So fearful were British troops of IRA snipers that they deployed their soldiers in helicopters instead of risking the roads in Armagh County.

Today this is a fine place to be a cow.

Now there is peace — and plenty of golf being played — along the 300 miles of the sinuous border that separates Northern Ireland from the Republic of Ireland.

Yet change may be coming to the frontier, following the vote in June by Britain to leave the European Union.

There are no signs, no custom posts or immigration control along the 300-mile invisible border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. (Photo by William Booth/The Washington Post) (William Booth/TWP)
What will happen to the Irish isle, north and south, is one of the biggest wild cards of the Brexit vote.

Northern Ireland is a part of Britain, and so they must now bid goodbye to the European bloc, no matter that a clear majority in Northern Ireland wanted to stay in the union — 56 percent voted to remain, while 44 percent voted leave.

Their neighbors to the south in the independent Republic of Ireland will remain part of European Union.

What will happen to trade and travel is unknown — and there are even bigger questions being asked about unification of the island.

Will a Romanian — or a Libyan — traveling from Dublin soon have to show a passport on the way to Belfast? Will a truckload of E.U. or British goods be inspected crossing the border and how? Will a bottle of milk cost the same on both sides — and who will enforce the regulations for its proper pasteurization and what will happen to the millions in farm subsidies, tax breaks and development funds that help farmers produce the milk?

In first meeting after Brexit vote, Merkel and May insist divorce can be amicable

Britain’s new post-Brexit Prime Minister, Theresa May, vowed “no one wants a return to the borders of the past.” But many are doubtful.

“Nobody knows what’s going to happen to our border and people who know the least are the politicians,” said Eugene McSkeane, 39, a hog farmer in Crossmaglen in Northern Ireland, who pointed to the overblown promises made before the historic Brexit ballot that were quickly withdrawn after the votes were counted.

The farmer said the decision over the border won’t be made by just Britain or Ireland. The 28 remaining members of the European Union will also have a say.

McSkeane lives in the north but crosses back and forth across the border without a thought.

“We pay our electric bill in the south and our water bills in the north,” he said. “It’s second nature.”

Kids go to schools on either side. Farmers till land that straddles the line. A local veterinarian said it’s a morning’s work to treat a cow in the north and a sheep in the south.

“Technically I imagine you’re supposed to check in with someone when you transport a body across the border, but I don’t see why you would bother with that now,” said Bernard O’Hanlon, 56, a funeral director and owner of a pub in Mullaghbawn in Northern Ireland. His two businesses, alongside a car wash, are combined.

“We’ve forgotten all about borders,” he said. “Now are they going to mean something again? That’s daft.”

At the crossroads near O’Hanlon’s is a monument to fallen fighters who died during the 1916 Easter Rising against British rule that lead to independence for the Republic of Ireland. Beneath the flowers and portraits are the words, “If you really want an Irish Republic vote Sinn Fein.”

‘A can of worms’
“Drive down the hill over the river you won’t see a sign telling you just crossed a border,” said Brendan McAleavy, 55, a publican in Cullaville, whose bar has two different drawers at the cash register, one for British pounds, the other for European euros.

More than 180 maintained roads cross the border between — many more if you count tractor trails and foot paths.

Along the Fane River, anglers fish for trout from both sides of the border. A local has hung a green-white-orange flag for the Republic of Ireland along a hedgerow.

This will now become the European Union’s backdoor to Britain and vice versa.

Alasdair McDonnell, a member of parliament from Belfast, said he’s been deluged with queries from constituents worried about what will happen to the border following the Brexit vote.

“We’ve opened up a can of worms,” he warned during a debate in parliament.

“There’s been massive progress and benefits of the last 20 years,” he said. “Free movement has transformed the island of Ireland.”

“There are people with a living memory of the hard border and its not a good memory at all,” said McDonnell, a member of the Social Democratic and Labour Party.

“Nobody wants a return to the dark days,” he said.

It was only 15 years ago the last bomb exploded in the long conflict between British security forces and Ulster loyalist paramilitaries and the Irish Republican Army. More than 3,500 people were killed during the Troubles, half of them civilians.

The peace brought by the 1998 Good Friday Agreement is now well-worn, widely accepted and an economic success for both north and south.

Change is worrisome for some.

“Brexit got everyone talking, that’s for sure. It reminds everyone who is who, where is where, north and south, the Troubles, all of that,” said Anne Devlin, a shop clerk who was filling her car with gas in Castleblayney in the Republic of Ireland but who lives in the north.

During the Troubles, one side’s freedom fighter was the other’s terrorist, she said.

“The past is best in the past,” Devlin said.

“It doesn’t take much to stir tensions on the border,” said Eunan O'Halpin, a professor of contemporary Irish history at Trinity College in Dublin.

“Is there still bitterness? Of course there is,” he said.

[Theresa May vows ‘bold, new’ future for Britain as E.U. exit awaits]

A vote for a united Ireland?
After the Brexit ballot, Irish politicians quickly began to jostle for advantage as they assessed what future negotiations over the coming split would mean — for the border, for the relations between north and south, between London, Belfast, Dublin and Brussels.

“That Ireland can be both one unit and two separate units may be a bizarre political fiction, but it is a fiction that has enabled former enemies to live with one another in relative peace,” Ian McBride, professor of Irish and British history at King’s College in London, wrote in the Guardian.

In an interview, McBride said, "I assume there’ll be a common sense solution to this." He said too many people have too much to lose.

The leader of the main opposition party in Republic of Ireland, Micheál Martin, said the rejection of Brexit by voters in Northern Ireland could be a “defining moment” in Irish politics and “may show people the need to rethink current arrangements.”

Martin McGuinness, deputy first minister of Northern Ireland, and a leader of Sinn Fein, called Brexit “a disaster for Ireland.”

“Anything that resembled a return to border checkpoints would represent a grievous undermining of the Good Friday agreement,” McGuinness said. “I view such a prospect with great alarm.”

Sinn Fein’s leader, Gerry Adams, said that the vote by Northern Ireland against Brexit should boost support for a future referendum on Irish unity.

Talk of such a “Border Poll” to consider the reunification of north and south raises hackles among British loyalists in the north.

Arlene Foster, first minister of Northern Ireland, vowed little would change along the border and said talk of a referendum on the unification of Ireland was folly.

“This is the silly season and often we have people coming forward with policy ideas that have no relevance to reality, and certainly a border poll, if it were to happen, would give a resounding result that we wanted to remain within the United Kingdom,” Foster told the BBC’s Today show.

Sammy Wilson, a leader of the Democratic Unionist Party, which supported a leave vote in the Brexit campaign, told The Washington Post in an interview at his offices in Larne that there are already immigration controls shared by the Republic of Ireland and Britain in the form of the Common Travel Area protocol.

Wilson said the threat of “rising tensions” between Catholics and Protestants, republicans and unionists, is “a despicable argument.”

“We don’t have a disaffected population. We won’t have a return to terrorism,” he said.

There’s too much trade, too much togetherness now.

“It’s all going to blow over soon enough,” he said.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eu ... story.html
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Re: Lee Ving the EU

Postby IanEye » Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:04 pm

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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby tazmic » Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:23 am

“It should be known that those who observe us from afar are very worried. I met and heard and listened to several of the leaders from other planets who are very concerned because they question the path the European Union will engage on. And so, a soothing is needed for both the Europeans and those who observe us from … farther away.” ~ Junker’s

http://exopolitics.org/european-commission-president-says-he-spoke-to-leaders-of-other-planets-about-brexit/

Evidence that no one listens to Junkers, at least.

Perhaps the more recent media rumours of Merkel’s insistence that it’s time for Juncker to go may have something to do with this. As reported by EU Observer today,

An unnamed German minister told the paper that pressure for Juncker “to resign will only become greater and chancellor Merkel will eventually have to deal with this next year”.

“Juncker has time and again acted against the common interest and his reaction to the British referendum has been very damaging,” said the source.

We must admit to our readers that we have no information on what the aliens think of Berlin’s new attitude to Juncker, the man they communicate with.


https://off-guardian.org/2016/07/04/the-aliens-are-worried-says-the-president-of-the-eu-commission/
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby RocketMan » Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:46 am

The UK supreme court just ruled 8 to 3 that Brexit requires an act of parliament. So there's still a chance it will not happen, amirite?
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby Iamwhomiam » Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:07 pm

Yes, that's right, RocketMan. Parliament must first pass laws allowing their withdrawing from the EU.

Good Luck with that.
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby semper occultus » Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:14 pm

...there is ofcourse absolutely a chance it won't but in the immediate term there is no chance of Parliament voting to prevent the Govt. triggering Article 50 by the end of March as the Tory / Labour position is to "respect the referendum result" -

also the argument shifted quite quickly from in or out of the EU to in or out of the Single Market - the remainers plan = use parliamentary & / or campaigning means to either force the Govt. to keep us in the Single Market ( freedom of movement, paying contributions & ECJ jurisdiction ) or try to ensure a second referendum on a "hard Brexit"

...just a vague & possibly biased feeling is as time passes people have shifted from anger to acceptance & a desire for clarity & certainty even in the business & political etablishment & on the EU side as much as the UK side & any campaign may suffer if opinion forms that drawn out political gestures, delaying tactics and attempts to throw a spanner in the works are more damaging than just getting on with it...

...also important is that the judgement rejected the rather futile argument ( constitutionally ) of the Scottish Nationalists in the devolved Scottish parliament that they should have some sort of power of veto over the process as they were one of the key political elements who would have actively worked to prevent it happening
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby Iamwhomiam » Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:58 pm

Thank you for your insight, semper. Things here have kept me distracted from following Brexit news day to day.

It is a complex issue. I don't know enough about the single market plan, but I suppose enacting it would be contingent to the EU's prior approval. (if that's not yet been assured) But I have been under the impression that the EU would collapse if the Crown severed its ties with the organization of states.

You're right to point out the frustration felt by many citizens and the need to get it over. I hope for whichever is decided upon is decided before this year's end, for everyone's sake.

Brexit: government will introduce article 50 bill 'within days' following supreme court ruling – as it happened

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/jan/24/supreme-court-article-50-judgement-announces-its-article-50-judgment-politics-live


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/what-is-article-50-the-only-explanation-you-need-to-read/

edited to remove semper's quote and to add,

Yeah, those Scots. Unreasonably complaining about their rights being trod upon and crying out for relief to be granted them by a superior court.
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:52 pm

I know it is churlish in the extreme to revive arguments that were started many moons ago and never continued by people who might not even be present anymore, but fuck it, why not?

"I suppose in the aftermath of the glorious revolution, the host communities (or hometown communities, as the case may be, ahem) will forget shit like that time when they were thrown under the bus in favor of the E-fucking-U by their intellectually superior comrades."

When did that happen? When did I, or the left in general, throw anybody under a bus in favour of the EU?

Even in Greece, at the most humiliating point of the various crises, did Varoufakis and his colleagues strike you as traitorously pro-EU, working mainly in the interests of the triumvirate?

I remember when the Tories threw the Scottish fishing industry under the bus in order to get themselves signed up to the EEC under Heath, I remember when Thatcher sold out the fishing communities again in 1983 to retain EU membership, but I don't remember any left-wingers of the era (like Tony Benn) praising these actions or condoning them. Even in recent times I don't see the left openly hoisting their petticoats for the EU in quite the same way as I hear their counterparts on the right (blatantly and repeatedly day after day) touting for business with a disinterested and seigneurial USA.

I'm one of the very few people on this forum who openly identify themselves as a Nationalist (capital N and everything). I could be reasonably called a separatist too - the insult lost it's impact during the 2014 independence referendum, and I'm not upset by it.

There are quite a few nationalists on here, of course - of various types - but few of them admit it. I do. So why the veiled (and in earlier cases not-veiled-at-all) accusations of Tankyism, Trotdom, and general implication of elite-smartypants pro-Shariah Law race traitorous Benedict Arnoldisation?

It's silly and wrong. But so is the future all round, I guess.
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby AhabsOtherLeg » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:03 pm

"...also important is that the judgement rejected the rather futile argument ( constitutionally ) of the Scottish Nationalists in the devolved Scottish parliament that they should have some sort of power of veto over the process as they were one of the key political elements who would have actively worked to prevent it happening"

It was especially important because we learned through a court judgement that the Sewell Convention holds no statutory weight in UK law, and can be safely ignored by any UK Government that may find it inconvenient. That will matter in the future.

Whatever one thinks of the bra-wearing, coke-snorting, prossie-hoarding Lord Sewell, his Convention was designed with the specific intention of keeping the UK politically united.

Now it is no more. We will not see it's like again.

Thanks Brexit.
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby KUAN » Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:06 am

Let's all go forward together
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby Iamwhomiam » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:17 am

^^^ If you add, "in peace," I'm with you.

Thanks for sharing your viewpoint, Ahab. Welcome back - you've been missed.

I was astonished when Scots voted to remain after offered their independence. Not sure if your Nationalism is restricted to Scotland or the entire UK, though I feel you're speaking particularly of Scottish nationalism.
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby Rory » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:49 am

AhabsOtherLeg » Fri Aug 05, 2016 5:45 pm wrote:My Mum made an observation the other night which I thought was pretty insightful. The poorer folk in the North of England seem to have fallen pretty hardcore for UKIP - we won't see just how hard until the next GE rolls around - and voted Leave by surprising margins. Most areas anyway.

One noticeable exception was Liverpool. What's different about Liverpool? They haven't been reading The Sun now for going on thirty years...

Rupert, yi old devil ye! I kind of hoped he'd back a Yes vote in 2014, as his revenge against the vassals who allowed him to be held accountable by the Leveson inquiry, but it seems like Brexit was his preferred legacy. What a guy.


Liverpool Riverside voted Labour with ~85% of the vote last night. They still to this day don't read the Sun.
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Re: The Brexit thread

Postby KUAN » Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:00 pm

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