Provocateurs in Berkeley (and elsewhere)?

[Elvis]

No need for a definition, just the ability to use ad hominem against anyone who questions or disagrees.

I don't think they mean *you*...while it would be fair to call Bannon a fascist, or even a nazi.

In any case, here's a 15-page thread, "Fascism: What exactly is it and how do you recognize it?":

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=35352

[seemslikeadream]

on edit: on second thought I want to make it perfectly clear go ahead and discuss fascism if you want I wouldn't want to be accused of trying to shut down a discussion of anything ...these are just my personal thoughts on the subject...discuss away

ya it's like been there done that ....4 years ago

I suppose one could have missed that thread or searched if the topic had ever come up here before

I didn't realize the definition was up to debate anyway


I believe one of the first rules tells you this has been an anti-fascist board from it's conception ..not sure why we would be debating/reconsidering a definition it at this point...like the earth is flat theory ...debate is not really necessary

Michigan GOP Official Calls For ‘Another Kent State’ For Campus Protesters
“One bullet stops a lot of thuggery,” tweets Dan Adamini in the wake of Berkeley demonstration against Breitbart’s Milo Yiannopoulos


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mic ... 304bb86f0?.

[semper occultus]

Ok so we're screwed either way then...either people take to the streets to "smash Fascism" and provoke the police state to a fascist backlash or they don;t and Steve Bannon imposes fascism........thanks alot Rocketman....

[dada]

Luther:

Responding to comments elsewhere on this thread: fascism is an identifiable, roughly quantifiable, and definable ideology.

I would be grateful if you could define Fascism for me, please. I spent a few years studying the rise of Fascism and Nazism and would be interested in your definition.

I'll take a shot at it. Wilhelm Reich:

"fascism" is the basic emotional attitude of man in authoritarian society, with its machine civilization and its mechanistic-mystical view of life. It is the mechanistic-mystical character of man in our times which creates fascist parties, and not vice versa.

Fascism as a political movement differs from other reactionary parties in that it is supported and championed by masses of people. Since fascism, always and everywhere, appears as a movement which is supported by the masses of people, it also displays all the traits and contradictions present in the average character structure.

In its pure form, fascism is the sum total of all irrational reactions of the average human character. To the narrow-minded sociologist who lacks the courage to recognize the enormous role played by the irrational in human history, the fascist race theory appears as nothing but an imperialistic interest or even a mere "prejudice." The violence and the ubiquity of these "race prejudices" show their origin from the irrational part of the human character. The race theory is not a creation of fascism. No: fascism is a creation of race hatred and its politically organized expression. Correspondingly, there is a German, Italian, Spanish, Anglo-Saxon, Jewish and Arabian fascism. The race ideology is a true biopathic character symptom of the orgastically impotent individual.

---

I would define fascism as "Family, nostalgia, and mysticism."

I don't remember if we looked at it this way in the "defining fascism" thread. Kind of surprised if we didn't. Although no one really likes to define fascism this way, it's much easier to talk about what's on the surface. Nazis, Donald. Nazis are a symptom. Donald is a symptom. What is the sickness? What causes the sickness? Fascism is a character symptom of the orgastically impotent individual.

Sorry to continue off topic.

I wonder if we're going to hit a critical mass with provocateurism. All the righties will be lefties in disguise, and vice versa. And the FBI is only spying on other FBI agents. Through a scanner dumbly.

[seemslikeadream]

Did Yiannopoulos secretly send more than 100 thugs to Berkeley to break up his own speech?

By Paul Cassell February 6 at 9:17 AM

Protesters watch a fire during a rally against the scheduled speaking appearance by Breitbart News editor Milo Yiannopoulos on the University of California at Berkeley campus on Feb. 1. (Ben Margot/Associated Press)
Last week, more than 100 masked thugs invaded the University of California at Berkeley campus and forced the cancellation of a speech by Breitbart News editor Milo Yiannopoulos. All credible reports have suggested that these thugs were not Berkeley students, but were instead outside anarchist agitators intent on keeping Yiannopoulos from speaking. For example, The Post had this description:

The demonstrators included “Black bloc” protesters, who wear masks and black clothing to present a unified front as they disrupt events, making it difficult for police to recognize individuals in the group. They are often seen at protests organized by groups such as Black Lives Matter and Occupy Wall Street, destroying property and setting fires. They torched a limousine in Washington last month on the day of Trump’s inauguration, and a group spray-painted buildings and smashed electrical boxes during a demonstration in Portland, Ore., earlier in January. When a group of them arrived at Berkeley, it swiftly changed the tenor of the peaceful demonstration.

Some students organized to try to protect the campus and businesses nearby, and then to pick up broken glass, scrub graffiti off buildings and clean the campus after the violence.

William Morrow, president of the Associated Students of the University of California, said in a statement that the cleanup effort showed what Berkeley students care about. “Last night was not reflective of that,” he said; students were expecting a peaceful protest, an exchange of opinions and a dance party, “but outside agitators infiltrated our community and didn’t treat it with the respect for our historic tradition of non-violence.”

The agitators set fires and caused more than $100,000 in damage to the campus.

ADVERTISING


Now a different theory is being hypothesized by Robert Reich, the chancellor’s professor of public policy at Berkeley and former labor secretary during the Clinton administration. Reich argues in Newsweek that the fact that Yiannopoulos was going to speak about federal funding to UC campuses and that the disruption quickly led to a question by President Trump over this funding show some sort of link:

Yiannopoulos wasn’t asked about the content of the speech that was shut down. The conversation [on Fox News] focused instead on how Berkeley proved the point that the Left was ceding its right to federal grants by cracking down on free speech. …

Which raises the possibility that Yiannopoulos and Brietbart were in cahoots with the agitators, in order to lay the groundwork for a Trump crackdown on universities and their federal funding.

Thursday night on CNN, I said “I wouldn’t bet against” that possibility. …

I don’t want to add to the conspiratorial musings of so many about this very conspiratorial administration, but it strikes me there may be something worrying going on here.

I wouldn’t bet against it.

Other commentators have raised similar speculations.

So let’s see: Yiannopoulos, who is an outsider to Berkeley and generally unwelcome there, succeeds in secretly arranging for more than 100 thugs to assemble in this city and then invade the Berkeley campus and cause more than $100,000 in damage, all to create a pretextual motive for Trump to alter federal funding for the UC system. And Yiannopoulos manages to do this without a single one of the thugs spilling the beans and tipping off the fact that this violent criminal conspiracy is organized by Yiannopoulos, not his opponents.

To even describe the plot is to make clear how phantasmagorical the whole idea is. Occam’s razor applies here. Or, as medical students are taught, when you hear hoofbeats, think horses not zebras. There is no way Yiannopoulos organized these protests, subjecting himself to serious criminal liability and placing the fate of his career on the sealed lips of more than 100 conspirators. Instead, the simplest explanation is the correct one: The persons responsible are left-wing anarchists, as the New York Times (among others) has described in this recent article.

The only thing that remains strange about the events last week is the fact that Berkeley police have proved so inept. While the police were praised for their “restraint” during the riots (and perhaps that praise was justified — I venture no opinion on riot-control tactics), they have been unable to now identify even a single one of these criminals. (Campus police arrested one person, from outside campus, for failing to disperse when ordered and two other persons, again outsiders to the campus, in an unrelated incident.)

The issue that demands attention is: How is it that after more than 100 thugs organized, well in advance, to invade the campus, and police were alerted to the risk of violence, again well in advance, no arrests were made the night of the attack? Indeed, in the days afterward, police following up (are they following up?) are unable to find any digital fingerprints or other pieces of evidence to begin prosecuting those responsible. To be sure, it is possible the attack was organized via the dark Web (i.e., Tor) or some similar sophisticated means of anonymous communication. But why are police so completely incapable of responding to such organized criminality? I’m not convinced we need new laws to address the violence. But if we want to find something “worrying” going on here, the utter inability of the authorities to hold anyone accountable for this dangerous assault — not only on campus facilities but also on free speech (discussed by Eugene here) — should be the focus of our concern.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/vol ... 21616cc09f

[dada]

What if the right wing provocateurs posing as black bloc anarchists are just pretending to be provocateurs, but really are anarchists?

What if they aren't provocateurs or anarchists? I would work for the highest bidder. That would make me a capitalist. I guess.

But what if anarchists were the highest bidder? Would that make me an anarchist? If Russians were the highest bidder, would that make me Russian? Well, what about Russian anarchists.

I know, Russian anarchists don't have any money. They're funded. That's tradition. Anyway, it doesn't matter, it's just a gig. I'll leave it up to the internet to debate the political orientations.

When Bakunin "escaped" from Siberia, he was in Japan for a few weeks before he took his tour of America. What did he do there? He spent the time shooting pool at the hotel bar, they say. mm hm.

Was he really founding the secret Bakunin Society of Japan, Inc? Are they the ones behind this shiny new Operation Mindfuckery, bankrolling the improvements of chaos? Was he playing Pachinko, and not pool? No one really knows.

[seemslikeadream]

Kellyanne lied THREE times about Bowling Green Massacre


she gets a paycheck from the federal government....she is a paid disfo agent for trumpty dumbty

[DrEvil]

Luther:

Responding to comments elsewhere on this thread: fascism is an identifiable, roughly quantifiable, and definable ideology.

I would be grateful if you could define Fascism for me, please. I spent a few years studying the rise of Fascism and Nazism and would be interested in your definition.

Fascists:


Not fascists:

[minime]

Fascists:

Brilliant.

Two sick puppies.

Or is that George C. Scott?

[edit: It is George C. Scott!]

[DrEvil]

You're right. I just googled 'fascist' and came across that picture and didn't look too closely, but he is at least playing a fascist, and he's a better actor than Trump.

[coffin_dodger]

I just googled 'fascist' and came across that picture and didn't look too closely...

Priceless. Thank you so much.

Establish a name for 'bad people'.
Consolidate State power.
Continually promote 'bad people' as nemesis
As State power grows and is noticed by increasing numbers
brand dissent as 'the bad people'
watch reasoning evaporate
turn 'good people' into 'bad people'
repeat

[semper occultus]

plenty of fascists have inhabited the "new Age" and Green/environmentalist milieu - they don't all strut about in uniforms

[brekin]

plenty of fascists have inhabited the "new Age" and Green/environmentalist milieu - they don't all strut about in uniforms

Word. And...

"Everybody in this room is wearing a uniform. Don't kid yourself." - Frank Zappa

https://youtu.be/NBRUcElxhJU?t=37m33s



RE: The Mass Psychology of Fascism and Trump/protests. There are a few threads and posts dealing with Reich's work and fascism on the board if people dig for them.

I think one thing that possibly has changed is that family structure wise we are not in the same place as the authoritarian father model of past generations. It of course still exists but even the most tyrannical father has lost ground to the influence and authority of technology, the media and other culture influences. I think we live more in a John Bly-ish Sibling Society where technology really has surpassed and usurped family authority. The desire to be popular has undermined the family to a large degree and that, along with numerous other desires/wants, that technology can possibly deliver has made us turn towards social media for direction and guidance. Trump seemed to control, win and transcend on social media because he became popular by seeming to not care if he was popular on social media. Also, being the the figure of the big daddy provider, whose whole show was about humiliation might actually have triggered the desire for the return of the missing authoritarian father to punish and humiliate those who have done wrong. Trump is really a throw back, and may be the expressed desire to sabotage progress.

[American Dream]

I almost never find myself in total agreement- or disagreement- with the content/style of Louis Proyect's arguments but I often find the various debates and differences of some interest:

Vanity of the bonfires




For Graeber, groups like the black bloc (yes, I know, it is only supposed to be a tactic but it is a loosely organized group that carries it out on a consistent basis) are a form of horizontalist direct democracy that are based on consensus rather than majority vote. Yeah, who needs a cumbersome and verticalist procedure such as voting that would only get in the way of a determined horizontalist bunch of people wearing bandannas over their faces intent on raising cain. If a black bloc spokesperson with a bullhorn had asked the 1500 or so Berkeley students in front of the Student Union protesting Milo Yiannopoulos to raise their hands if they favored busting windows and shooting skyrockets into the lobby of the building, they might have had the gumption to reject such tactics. We can’t abide such laggards getting in the way of bold actions, can we?

Essentially, the black bloc is as elitist and verticalist in its own way as the self-declared vanguard groups of the Leninist left that aspire to control mass organizations. Groups like the American SWP that I belonged to for 11 years used to caucus before a meeting to make sure that the membership followed a predetermined line before a critical vote even if in the course of discussion they decided that the SWP was wrong. Meanwhile, the black bloc does not bother with votes at all. This is a Hobson’s Choice, if there ever was one.

https://louisproyect.org/2017/02/07/van ... -bonfires/

[DrEvil]

I just googled 'fascist' and came across that picture and didn't look too closely...

Priceless. Thank you so much.

You're welcome, whatever your point is.

Establish a name for 'bad people'.
Consolidate State power.
Continually promote 'bad people' as nemesis
As State power grows and is noticed by increasing numbers
brand dissent as 'the bad people'
watch reasoning evaporate
turn 'good people' into 'bad people'
repeat

So, Trump's playbook in other words?

Edit:

"Everybody in this room is wearing a uniform. Don't kid yourself." - Frank Zappa

Very true, but the important point is what are the intentions of the people wearing a particular uniform?
Just wearing a metaphorical uniform isn't necessarily a bad thing, everyone has ideological leanings of one sort or another. It's what they do in its name that matters, and right now the guys at the wheel want to crush anyone who disagrees with them.

Fighting fascism is a moral obligation for anyone who cares about an open, free and tolerant society, because if fascism wins those things will disappear. Trump and Bannon have all but declared war on criticism, and a free internet is dead in the water thanks to Ajit Pai taking over the FCC.