Should the CIA choose our President?

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Re: The CIA is seriously dangerous.

Postby justdrew » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:13 am

Karmamatterz » 15 Feb 2017 10:54 wrote:Plus 1 Rory.

It's downright creepy how these people are not even flinching at the thought of the NSA using its apparatus against its own citizenry. Oh the shrill screams of fascism fascism around every corner....but then when the fascist deep state uses it tech against a non-Democrat they find it acceptable. They even embrace it.

It's sick and disgusting.


if they're not going to use "the apparatus" to spy on who's talking to Russian Intel Officials, what the fuck would it be used for?

Everyone knows it's there and for that especially. Hard to understand why records of such talks leaking out would be a surprise to anyone involved. Surely the trump-people didn't think they would not be noticed?

Anyway, it is nuts for a candidate to be talking with potentially-hostile foreign powers, did he not know what his people were doing?
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Re: Should the CIA choose our President?

Postby Elvis » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:56 am

Project Willow » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:50 pm wrote:
Elvis » 15 Feb 2017 19:38 wrote:So now I should like Trump because the CIA doesn't?

If I resist Trump, I'm supporting the CIA?


Who said that?


Nordic implied it, when Burnt Hill wrote:

Burnt Hill wrote: »
My liberal friends feel they must resist Trump and what he represents,


Nordic replied,

Nordic wrote:I would suggest they learn just what the fuck they're supporting.



Are you buying into everything the media publishes about Trump or are you more discerning? My liberal friends are whipped into an hysterical frenzy and aren't thinking clearly at all. They will do whatever they are told. It's frightening.


I see the liberal hysteria too, and I buy into but little.


Elvis » 15 Feb 2017 19:38 wrote:Nordic, you're the greatest, and I wish you'd stop getting suspended because then I miss you. But did you hear Miller say that Trump's executive power "will not be questioned"? These guys are going for a total authoritarian power grab and they could achieve it in a few weeks. Sadly, many 'Murkins think that's just what the country needs. Maybe the courts will stop the Trump Gang—maybe not. Somebody has to stop them.


The executive powers he's using were built up over the last few decades, apace through Bush and Obama.


Yes very true, it's just shocking to see it abused so brazenly.

Yes, as long at its civilian government we're dealing with there may be means to resist, like through the courts, but what instrument do we have to contend with the CIA? None. That's the point. Once they are openly in power, it's curtains, as the Zappa quote suggested.


Okay, I didn't understand it to be a matter of the CIA literally selecting trump's replacement (be it Pence or otherwise), for the CIA to explicitly hold the executive power through that office.

Presumably the CIA would bring about Trump's downfall by releasing evidence of wrongdoing, forcing Trump's resignation or impeachment; would that necessarily lead to the CIA running the country through a proxy president?

And, are you saying we're better off leaving Trump in place to complete his term(s)? I could see that, I suppose, under some circumstances.

But isn't it possible the CIA just wants Trump out of office, figuring that any likely establishment replacement will readily serve the ongoing agenda, as explained, and justified, to any new president? Trump is an anomaly, brushing them off — which is rather delightful to see.
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Re: Should the CIA choose our President?

Postby Project Willow » Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:47 am

^ Trump is immaterial to me in this question. I don't see him as functionally more authoritarian than Obama, it's just that his policies are so regressive. What has he done that is any worse than other Republicans?

Yes, safe bet is they'll take him out like they did Nixon.

It's seeing the power plays in real time, in the open, that is so damn disturbing, and not knowing for sure how far they'll go. It's not quite like I've forgotten the myriad ways that CIA controls the presidency, I guess I was holding onto irrational hope, that some day, some worthy candidate might get through. Pretty silly now I say it out loud. There are different levels of knowing.
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Re: Should the CIA choose our President?

Postby km artlu » Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:35 am

The CIA - the Spooks - general intel - the Deep State, whatever it may be called, has tightly controlled the presidency since November 22, 1963.

The visibility and turbulence of current shenanigans reveals some measure of unusual or unprecedented resistance to that norm.

What's also new, as Willow described on page two here, is the level of social engineering now realized and deployed. It makes me wonder if even the spooks themselves are astonished by this degree of unthinking compliance.

Russia's military spending is a little over 10% of that of the US. I mean, what the fuck? Some bogeyman you got there.
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Re: Should the CIA choose our President?

Postby liminalOyster » Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:49 am

I really like the new title of this thread ...
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Re: Should the CIA choose our President?

Postby kelley » Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:58 am

link willow's comments to the salon piece re: the american population, and a primary component of the weltanshauung is revealed:


http://www.salon.com/2010/07/27/america ... e_obsolete
/http://www.rigorousintuition.ca/board2/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=29043&p=631225&hilit=salon#p631225


this describes one of the reasons i was certain clinton was to be appointed executive

the deep state has written off the citizenry of the nation

and the manner in which clinton ran her 'campaign' reflected this decision

the real action is decidedly elsewhere

trump has an extremely limited grasp of this notion and that's the general reason concocted by the state in declaring he has to go
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Re: Should the CIA choose our President?

Postby dada » Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:08 am

km artlu » Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:35 am wrote:
The visibility and turbulence of current shenanigans reveals some measure of unusual or unprecedented resistance to that norm.


It's like watching some dogs fight over Poppy's bone.

Maybe they'll hurt each other bad, and a third dog will get the bone.

How many factions are lurking within the deep state at this point? Kind of like guessing how many jellybeans in a jar, isn't it?
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Re: Should the CIA choose our President?

Postby Karmamatterz » Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:16 am

Anyway, it is nuts for a candidate to be talking with potentially-hostile foreign powers, did he not know what his people were doing?


Yes, it was foolish IF Flynn or any of them actually didn't think their conversations would be listened to. But does that make it right? Should we just roll over and love the patriot Act? Perhaps it's just my indignation that I find the entire spying on Americans distasteful. Flynn was a player, how could he not know his calls were to being intercepted? It's all weird.

As to the quote above..seriously? It's a common practice of statecraft. Ever heard of Kissinger? Obama made his tour while running for office talking to a foreign dignitaries/politicians etc...there always must be back channel communications. What happened here with Flynn, is that he was targeted (or so it seems) by federal law enforcement and then for POLITICAL reasons the info released anonymously to members of the media with most favored status. So yeah I think that is what grinds me is that the spooks use this info for political reasons. It's exactly why the power they have is dangerous.
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Re: Should the CIA choose our President?

Postby Grizzly » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:32 am

Anybody here have a read on RDS?

Former CIA Case Officer Robert David Steele - A Message to Donald Trump on The Hagmann Report 2/7/17


Published on Feb 8, 2017

Former CIA clandestine services case officer Robert David Steele provides in-depth information about what Donald Trump needs to do to survive his term and make the changes he desires - changes that will have a positive impact on America.

Mr. Steele identities those who are in President Trump's inner circle but do NOT have his best interests at heart.

This information-packed and fascinating interview is loaded with critical information about how Trump won, what he needs to do forthwith to remain viable, and what the future might hold if he does not.

Robert David Steele's website: http://phibetaiota.net


can one of the mods please delete the double post? Never-mind, I figured it out.
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Re: Should the CIA choose our President?

Postby American Dream » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:39 pm

http://www.sfchronicle.com/news/article ... 918787.php.

Wise advice from Berkeley scholar: Don’t have a cow, America

By David Talbot, San Francisco Chronicle February 9, 2017

Image
Trump advisor Steve Bannon, left, watches as President Donald Trump greets Elon Musk.

OK, let’s review. There’s a scary clown running the White House. (That would be Steve Bannon — and his sidekick seems nearly as unhinged.) Wealthy tech titans and New York bankers — the guys who are supposed to bet on the future — are frantically planning their escape havens in New Zealand and renovating old nuclear war bunkers in the vast, empty Great Plains. Black bloc anarchists are running wild in the streets. And the white nationalist crowd is stockpiling guns and ammo for the revolution or counterrevolution to come. America, America, God shed his grace on thee.

Meanwhile, Washington and Hollywood liberals — the types who are always celebrating our enlightened and exceptional democratic system — are freaking out, floating the possibility of a military coup to remove President Trump from office and restore sanity in the land.

“WAKE UP & JOIN THE RESISTANCE. ONCE THE MILITARY IS W US FASCISTS GET OVERTHROWN. MAD KING & HIS HANDLERS GO BYE BYE,” tweeted comedian Sarah Silverman last week. What is it about Twitter that makes people go all upper-case bonkers? The next morning, a chastened (and/or sober) Silverman admitted she had kind of lost it: “FEAR can motivate even peacenik snowflakes 2 violence & last night I felt it hard.”

But the coup meme continued to spread in left-wing circles. Rosa Brooks, a human rights counselor in the Clinton State Department and Obama Defense Department, published an article in Foreign Policy asking point blank, “Are we truly stuck with Donald Trump?” — a man, she wrote, who is turning out to be “as crazy as everyone feared.”

One solution to the Trump crisis, she observed, might be “a military coup, or at least a refusal by military leaders to obey certain orders.”

“The prospect of American military leaders responding to a presidential order with open defiance is frightening — but so, too, is the prospect of military obedience to an insane order,” wrote Brooks, who is married to an Army Special Forces officer.

“For the first time in my life, I can imagine plausible scenarios in which senior military officials might simply tell the president, ‘No, sir. We’re not doing that,’ to thunderous applause from the New York Times editorial board.”

All hell predictably broke loose in the Breitbart and Alex Jones world, and Brooks was barraged with death threats and the usual sexist and anti-Semitic sludge.

Brooks, the daughter of noted socialist journalist Barbara Ehrenreich, felt compelled to explain that she was not calling for a coup, but simply “speculating on what would happen if Donald Trump truly and dangerously lost his marbles.”

Trump’s first weeks in office have triggered lots of such speculation, with articles in the mainstream press openly wondering whether the “deep state” — i.e., Wall Street, the oil industry, national security agencies, corporate media and other unelected centers of hidden power — will take steps to terminate his erratic presidency.

Be careful what you wish for, journalist Glenn Greenwald cautioned his fellow progressives. A deep-state seizure of the government would only push us from the frying pan into the fire.

We’re seeing a “proxy war” in the intelligence community between FBI factions aligned with Trump and the CIA, which is largely opposed to him, Greenwald told Fox News’ Tucker Carlson. (The fact that Greenwald is a welcome guest on Fox these days underlines the strangeness of the times.) “It’s really quite dangerous if we think about submitting to rule by these unelected, dark, deep-state overlords — it’s the antithesis of democracy.”

For some additional sanity, I consulted with retired UC Berkeley scholar Peter Dale Scott, the godfather of dark power research, whose book “The American Deep State” will be rereleased in the spring. Scott has been accused of fomenting conspiratorial thinking about power and authority in the U.S. But he takes a refreshingly level-headed view of our current turmoil.

“The American state is a very complicated organism — it’s very hard for one man to upend it. I think the judicial resistance to Trump’s Muslim ban is a harbinger of what’s to come. The system itself is bigger than any one man. The founders were very concerned about the rise of a tyrant, and we can thank them for installing a variety of protective measures in the system against such a specter.”

The deep state is very fragmented over Trump, observed Scott, with Wall Street, for instance, cheering his efforts to gut banking regulations but fretting over his antiglobalist policies. Hopefully, this darker level of power won’t be called on to intervene against Trump, said Scott.

“A coup would mean civil war, because the large chunks of this country that support Trump are heavily armed and have been preparing for this kind of showdown.”

Scott thinks progressives need to take a deep breath. “Maybe I’m more sanguine because I’m Canadian and I tend to see these American upheavals with the perspective of an outsider. People are reacting now with anger, fear, hatred and despair — and these are not emotions that we should be adding to the American mix these days.

“Even a smart commentator like (Truthdig columnist) Chris Hedges, for whom I have great respect, is saying we’re about to lose all of our civil rights. This is so overstated. We need to stay cool and keep calmly building a resistance movement.”

For the record, I too respect Hedges, with whom I collaborated on a recent book, but I agree that Trump has driven him a bit mad lately.

“This country survived Nixon and Reagan and George W. Bush — absolutely appalling leaders,” said Scott. “And even worse, they were all re-elected. But, afterwards, the country came out better than ever before.

“Trump is so bad that he’s not dangerous. As the anti-Trump protests grow and people get organized, I think America’s democratic values will emerge even stronger.”

There you go, America. That’s your moment of Zen for the day.
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Re: Should the CIA choose our President?

Postby NeonLX » Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:11 pm

American Dream » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:39 am wrote:http://www.sfchronicle.com/news/article/Wise-advice-from-Berkeley-scholar-Don-t-have-a-10918787.php.


“This country survived Nixon and Reagan and George W. Bush — absolutely appalling leaders,” said Scott. “And even worse, they were all re-elected. But, afterwards, the country came out better than ever before.



It did?
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Re: Should the CIA choose our President?

Postby American Dream » Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:31 pm

Peter Dale Scott is a progressive with roots in the struggles of the 60's. I would personally say "Situation Normal- All Fucked Up".

It's not the Apocalypse- but by no means are things great either.
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Re: Should the CIA choose our President?

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:15 pm

.

Of course. The CIA has been doing that since 1963 and the results have been splendid.

Should questions that insult the intelligence of the average R.I. reader be posed? Why not? Situation normal, right?

Let's see, should Nordic's liver be sold to the current Blackwater successor firm for immediate harvesting and transplantation into the body of a serial killer who is then equipped with body armor and machine guns and released into Disneyworld on the busiest morning of the year, with the entire park surrounded by federal troops to assure that no one escapes from the carnage?

Hell no! No fucking way! I oppose!!!

One of the more insulting suggestions in the first comment is that people here are reading Trump through the media. Here? Only Trump-level thinkers and Trump apologists/supporters would try that canard on R.I.

There is little need to read Trump through any means other than direct exposure to the man. To his speeches and words, coming directly from his voice, his gestures, his thumbs. To his decisions, easily viewed and read. To the consequences of said decisions, seen at airports and in now (re)burgeoning detention centers. We've all had a lot of direct exposure to this creature of petty and transparent evils, quite recently. Some of us have had the displeasure for decades, longer than with the Clintons.**

If you come here, to Rigorous Intuition, and try to suggest to people here that their impression is formed by the media, and really they just need to understand him a bit better, then they will see what a lesser evil he is, then either you are treating the people here as total fools, or you are a fool. My guess in this case is option b.

If you are not reading him as the sick, dangerous, fascistic, racist, unstable, woman-hating sociopath that he is -- did I mention woman-hating, because that's constitutive almost more than anything else? and if you are not above all reading his essence -- that of a transparent con-man who has lived through nothing but scams, petty crimes and lies sold to the stupid all his lonely life -- then either you will, inevitably, get it, sooner or later, or you won't. But either way, you are of little other than academic interest to me.

I am interested in the emerging majority who know what the fuck time it is, and who want alliances in a struggle, first and foremost, to bring down the immediate and imminent danger. I hope and in fact am very optimistic that this is happening in a fashion that exposes and weakens and causes a greater drive to reform all kinds of bad systemic factors, including the deep state. I will certainly not choose sides between those elements of the deep state who are making trouble for the would-be classic-fascist-style dictator or the man himself.

The question has a number of false premises. There is no "we." If there was, there certainly would be no "our" president. There should be no president at all, this is a bad system for this particular country and people. There should be no CIA.

Any further questions?

.

** Note, because I can't do this part of the justified trash talk often enough: You're certainly not going to come here and tell me I don't know Donald fucking Trump. The man of New York City. The product of Queens. That's right, cosmopolis-hating cowboys: you elected a New York scam artist who thinks you are unwashed doofuses -- "poorly educated, I love poorly educated" -- and if you voted for him for any reason other than that you too are a white-supremacist woman-hating bully-boy predator like him, if you really think this character is attacking the establishment for you and gives a fuck about your pathetic life and your pathetic problems, then you fucking are a doofus. You elected a really stupid scam artist, too, a low-grade scam artist, one that 90% of everyone in New York City figured out long ago. You are like the last person at a WWE show who still thinks it's a real fight. There are millions of you and I'm told I'm supposed to figure out how to talk to you poor sensitive snowflake souls and not scare you off, but meanwhile I'm going to worry about the MAJORITY who are not quite as stupid, because they are the ones who need to organize first, and put up the fucking fight in earnest.

.
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Re: Should the CIA choose our President?

Postby brekin » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:47 pm

Michael Moore, great unwashed cloaking device aside, is worth 50 million dollers. He's part of the elite even if he wears sweaters that have Garfield printed on them and Garfield sleeping on them. Like Jones, he's in the business of crying doomsday, the industry of selling dissent, that's how he makes the donuts. Can a multi-millionaire still speak truth to power? Perhaps, but its doubtful when his brand is reactionary propaganda and that is how he makes his money.

Should the CIA choose our President? As someone said, don't they? So what is Trump? The one that broke through? Buyers remorse? A false positive against the military-industrial complex? My guess is a little of all. The logic of : If Trump Bad then CIA Good or If Trump Good then CIA Bad is ridiculous.
Trump can be evil and the CIA can be evil. The assurances that Hilary was going to start nuclear Armageddon with Russia are asinine. We have pro-Russia Trump as president and Russia breaking missile treaties and a spy ship anchored off the coast of Connecticut. And I don't see peace in Syria, do you?

Also, Obama the same as Trump is ridiculous. Look at what Trump has done so far. There are refugees literally risking their lives to escape America to get into Canada. Immigrants are living in hiding and afraid their families will be separated. Mexico is planning to buy its corn from South America in retaliation which will devastate the midwest farm economies. Trump has maligned and isolated the media and the press. Trump's cabinet are anti the departments they oversee. The Secretary of State was the CEO of Exxon Mobil. Betsy Devos is Education Secretary. The points of collusion with Trumps team and Russia before the election are insane. Trump's aides are telling the press and public to shut up and not challenge the presidents power and disparaging the judicial branch. The only gains liberals can point to lately are SNL skits.

Yes, the system is corrupt and f-upped but there is a difference between a cold calculated inhumane system run by dodgy bureaucrats and it being run by a madmen. We are seeing the difference.

What Jack said to.
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
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Re: Should the CIA choose our President?

Postby American Dream » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:20 pm

It occurs to me I should add to what I said above, yes- "Situation Normal- All Fucked Up", but to paraphrase Orwell: Some times are more "normal" than others.

Or to indulge in my more apocalyptic side, I do like Bruce Cockburn:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kybkiiAKMOY

Strikes across the frontier and strikes for higher wage
Planet lurches to the right as ideologies engage
Suddenly it's repression, moratorium on rights
What did they think the politics of panic would invite?
Person in the street shrugs -- "Security comes first"
But the trouble with normal is it always gets worse

Callous men in business costume speak computerese
Play pinball with the third world trying to keep it on its knees
Their single crop starvation plans put sugar in your tea
And the local third world's kept on reservations you don't see
"It'll all go back to normal if we put our nation first"
But the trouble with normal is it always gets worse

Fashionable fascism dominates the scene
When the ends don't meet it's easier to justify the means
Tenants get the dregs and the landlords get the cream
As the grinding devolution of the democratic dream
Brings us men in gas masks dancing while the shells burst
The trouble with normal is it always gets worse
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