Should the CIA choose our President?

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Re: Should the CIA choose our President?

Postby Elvis » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:43 pm

Wombaticus Rex » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:00 am wrote:
Elvis » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:55 am wrote:
JackRiddler » Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:30 pm wrote:You are both (elvis and brekin) writing about Moore without bothering to define or agree on common definitions of "elite," class, institutions, power, position, etc. Thus you are bound to talk past each other, with the advantage of being completely right, no matter what you say, even if you don't even know what you said. And you can be certain the other guy is wrong.


Yeah. And not for the first time. I still say millionaires are a dime a dozen, "the elite" is more like, if you have to ask, you can't afford it.


Quite so, but I think the bigger point being made is that once you've got that lakefront second home that's large enough for five families and then some, you made a decision about what side you're on. Sure, billionaires have contempt for millionaires and Michael Moore isn't invited to Davos or Bilderberg. Doesn't change Moore's decision.

Fuck his good intentions and fuck his lip service to the working class he left long ago.


Thanks for chiming in with good points. I was just gonna let it go, it's not really worth typing a lot about in this thread (sorry for the derangement). But glancing through news of Moore's divorce, it sounds as if it was his wife pushing for the grand homes, expensive additions etc., and that's why he divorced her.

Moore makes me cringe as often as applaud, and it's been years since I've seen any of his movies.


Oh and Brekin, bro, for years I thought you'd written somewhere that you were female, my mistake.
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Re: Should the CIA choose our President?

Postby OP ED » Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:48 pm

What exactly should Moore have done with his money to prove himself?

Donate? To who or what?

Buy every kid in America a salad? A puppy?

Burn it?

Not that I personally find him even remotely interesting, I just don't think noveau riche equals Establishment in most cases. I would have kept it all myself. People are too stupid to be trusted with your money.
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Re: Should the CIA choose our President?

Postby brekin » Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:00 pm

OP ED » Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:48 pm wrote:What exactly should Moore have done with his money to prove himself?
Donate? To who or what?
Buy every kid in America a salad? A puppy?
Burn it?
Not that I personally find him even remotely interesting, I just don't think noveau riche equals Establishment in most cases. I would have kept it all myself. People are too stupid to be trusted with your money.


Seems like for someone who seeks to replace capitalism, enriching the few at the expense of the many, he could fund that replacement by enriching some of the many instead of himself. Which he started to do after Roger and Me. But nothing tests a revolutionary like riches. And he pulled back into rich fat cat mode.

What could he have done to prove himself? How about back when Flint had to switch their water supply because of a financial state of emergency he could have helped the city that's story helped make him rich in the first place? You know so kids could not have been poisoned? I know, I know, his 9 properties needed the dough for the upkeep.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/11/health/to ... -michigan/
http://www.businessinsider.com/michael- ... ngs-2014-7

Capitalism: A Love Story
...
The film ends with Moore marking Wall Street off as a crime scene, narrating that American people live in the richest country on Earth and deserve a decent job, healthcare, a good education and a home of their own, saying that it's a crime that they don't have these things, and never will as long as the evil of capitalism continues to enrich the few at the expense of the many.He calls for it to be eliminated and replaced with something good for all people—democracy. Moore concludes that he can't do this alone and appeals for help from the viewer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism:_A_Love_Story

Court documents reveal how Michael Moore profited off the capitalist system he condemns
Friday, August 01, 2014 by: Jonathan Benson, staff writer

(NaturalNews) The lavishly hypocritical critic of capitalism, Michael Moore, is on full display following the documentary filmmaker's recent divorce from Kathy Glynn, his wife of 22 years. Court documents unveiled during the divorce proceedings revealed that Moore owns a total of nine properties and spends most of his time at either a posh Manhattan condo or a 10,000 square-foot lake mansion in northern Michigan.

A vocal champion of wealth redistribution, Moore quietly embraced many of the capitalist ideals he publicly condemned, accumulating for himself and his now-former wife more than $50 million in net worth. The couple's Manhattan condo was actually three former apartments merged into one, and photographs of their lake house reveal what appears to be two large houses connected, with a third on the side.

Such gratuitous affluence is what one might expect to see from the so-called "1 percent," which Moore openly berated in his 2009 film Capitalism: A Love Story. But as it turns out, Moore is a tried-and-true member of the 1 percent, having ridden the waves of success that he gained within the American capitalist system.
"He criticizes capitalism, but capitalism made him rich," stated Gary Tracy, owner of Bellaire Bait and Tackle, located near Moore's lake house mansion, to The Detroit News. "Why he decided to live in this conservative area, I have no idea."


Moore built an empire of riches denigrating rich people
Though some say Moore was generous with his wealth, giving back to impoverished areas of Michigan where he grew up, his gains were ill-gotten in light of his supposed convictions. For someone who so adamantly opposes free enterprise while in the limelight, Moore sure takes advantage of its benefits in his personal life.

"He is not a common man. No way," stated Bellaire resident Nancy Schwalm to The Detroit News.
At issue during the proceedings was how Glynn recklessly used the couple's money to expand their lake house, which builders say boasts turrets, bay windows and hand-cut timber framing. Moore complained that the addition ended up costing five times more than Glynn said it would, resulting in significant losses to the couple's assets.
Moore had allegedly tried to work with Glynn to establish an approval process for purchases in order to reign them in. But this apparently didn't work out, resulting in the couple eventually separating from one another, and now finalizing their divorce.

"Kathleen has unlimited, unfettered, 24/7 personal access to 100% of all of the liquid assets in our joint accounts," wrote Moore in an affidavit. Is it time for Moore's personal wealth to be redistributed to the masses?
As unfortunate as it is to see any couple's marriage end in shambles, it is difficult to sympathize with a man who, while storing up earthly treasures for himself, called for other people's treasures to be redistributed by the federal government. If Moore is truly serious about correcting the wrongs of others characterized as the "1 percent," it is only fair that he hold himself to the same standard.

At the same time, crony capitalism is not the same as honest capitalism, and some have said that Moore aimed to embody the latter.
"He's always spoken out against crony capitalism where the rich have rigged the game against working people," wrote one Washington Post commenter. "He's never had a problem with people benefiting from hard work and creativity, and not getting... cheated by a system rigged against them."

Sources for this article include:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk
http://www.detroitnews.com
http://www.washingtonpost.com


"Michael, you are a multi-millionaire."
https://youtu.be/b5YOIUpLpLI?t=3m50s
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Re: Should the CIA choose our President?

Postby Grizzly » Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:33 pm

Good lord there is a legit intelligence civil war occurring in front of our eyes, and you smocks, take up room arguing over a very unhealthy (read: overweight) documentarian ....

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Re: Should the CIA choose our President?

Postby 82_28 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:45 pm

Whatever. Fat shaming needs to go away. He has made many a successful film/documentary. No, I do not know why he would do something so ostentatious. I guess it's called "doing a good job" or something.

But there is the paradox. . .TRUMP. I bet Moore weighs less than him. Moore has done some quality shit.
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Re: Should the CIA choose our President?

Postby SonicG » Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:18 pm

I was going to joke that Moore the Millionaire should have cleaned up the water in Flint himself because the fucks responsible and the government sure as hell aren't. Because...?
There's the rub...Really, Trump should just wave his majic wand like he promised and fixor it yugely...Oh right, the CIA is stopping him from doing that...back on topic!

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Re: Should the CIA choose our President?

Postby brekin » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:26 pm

Grizzly » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:33 pm wrote:Good lord there is a legit intelligence civil war occurring in front of our eyes, and you smocks, take up room arguing over a very unhealthy (read: overweight) documentarian ....
:wallhead: :wallhead: :wallhead:


Image

Oops, sorry Captain America, we will stop going through Fattie Warbucks, er, Daddy Warbucks trashcan and get back to the civil war.
Where were we?
Ah yes.
Should the CIA choose our President?
No.
Do they?
Probably-maybe.
Can we do anything about it?
No, not really.
Do they want a do-over?
Probably-maybe.
Does the rest of the country/world?
Probably-maybe.
Should the CIA choose our President again?
Well who do they have in mind this time?
And is the FBI cool with their first pick?
Is Putin?

Mmh, this complicated.
Maybe Michael Moore could make a documentary about it.
If I knew all mysteries and all knowledge, and have not charity, I am nothing. St. Paul
I hang onto my prejudices, they are the testicles of my mind. Eric Hoffer
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Re: Should the CIA choose our President?

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:37 pm

brekin, your comments about Moore don't even rise to the refined intellectual level of the Alt-Right or Tom Friedman. You can do a lot better than this, no? It's just the standard American conservative reactionary rhetoric I've been hearing all my life: Look some guy made money selling his works! (Some artist made money selling art, some athlete made money selling touchdowns, some actor/writer made money, etc. etc.) And he said something radical/liberal/whateverist that might be remotely seen as not in harmony with his having made money. Therefore anything he's said is forever wrong! Invalid! Not only that, but if anyone mentions his name in any context, I'm going to go yang-yang-yang all day about it (or throw in even dumber comments about looks or weight or whatever) and disallow any other discussion. WIn! (I suppose you are derailing this misbegotten thread with entirely off-topic stuff, there's that.)

At least, unlike most people who made that kind of money, Moore didn't actually do anything criminal. (Most of what's vaguely or definitely criminal is legal, of course, like selling large internal combustion vehicles or greaseburgers or guns or advertising for cholera or bilking the taxpayer on inflated contracts or front-running the market by a millionth of a second or whatever.) Don't you get bored of the gossip pages?

I liked the Avengers script, though. You're okay.

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Re: Should the CIA choose our President?

Postby Project Willow » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:54 pm

dupe post
Last edited by Project Willow on Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should the CIA choose our President?

Postby Project Willow » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:56 pm

dupe.
Last edited by Project Willow on Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should the CIA choose our President?

Postby Project Willow » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:57 pm

Heaven Swan » 17 Feb 2017 04:36 wrote:This whole ordeal is much more stomach-turning for us, who have lived with this noxious clown for decades.

I regularly thank my lucky stars that I haven't personally crossed paths with him. Several of my friends haven't been so lucky. One worked as an entertainer at one of his events--and never got paid. He blasted another with crude sexism then in a stunningly petty and money-grubbing move, lifted her contract with a cease and desist order from his lawyer. Another, while working for him, found herself in a room where she was in earshot of his conversation with cronies. What he bragged about and the way he expressed himself was so vulgar, disturbing, sexist, racist, not to mention brazenly criminal, that I haven't repeated the details to anyone because it would sicken me to say it. You can't unhear this stuff though.

And my friend is not a politico, I believe her and it's clearly just typical, everyday behavior on his part.

And I have had contact with other evil presidents and they are so radically different, he is NOTHING like them-- who tend to be: slick as cellophane, blasting all citizens they meet with a warm gust of charm and 'concern' while projecting competence, even brilliance.

I may have dedicated my life to fighting against the evil, destructive and exploitative side of what they do but I can't say that they aren't professional and sane (in a their own sometimes diabolical way).

You could make a convincing argument that Trump and his crew's off the charts recklessness and incompetence is waking people up and providing an opening for change-- but you can't say it's not extremely dangerous.


Good point, but I want to expand on it a bit. Does he torture children on the weekends? Those more savvy politicians you've met, I've met some too, and in off hours they turn into exquisite predators. The intelligence that allows them to perform magnanimously in public is the same intelligence that sharpens their sociopathy in private.

I don't see that in Trump. In him I see a lot of fumbling weakness, no cortical facility under which to hide it and so to make exponential its impact.

That doesn't mean he isn't dangerous, and certainly in some aspects just as dangerous as those around him who may have more attuned gifts, but I don't think it is as bad. Hence we see resistance to him, where as before, there was little or none, or perhaps even conscious awareness, of the danger.

Edit: Formatting.
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Re: Should the CIA choose our President?

Postby seemslikeadream » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:12 pm

Douglas Valentine’s CIA vs. Donald Trump’s CIA
02/16/2017 04:18 pm ET

The firing of General Michael Flynn, Donald Trump’s former national security adviser, for ties to Russian intelligence has precipitated a certain chaos in the White House and Washington that could determine whether there will be more revelations that result in firings or whether we will see unparalleled control of intelligence agencies by the so-called President of the United States.

In an effort to battle the fallout from campaign advisors Paul Manafort, Roger Stone and Carter Page having been caught by the CIA and NSA for collusion with Russian intelligence officers, Trump has announced his intention to have billionaire Stephen Feinberg, co-founder of Cerberus Capital Management, oversee a broad review of this nation’s intelligence agencies. (Cerberus, appropriately, was in Greek mythology the multi-headed dog that guarded the gates of the Underworld to prevent the dead from leaving.)

Trump hopes to avoid further scrutiny regarding both his business dealings with Russia and connections to Vladimir Putin’s intelligence agents, using Feinberg, who has no national security background. He is a crony of chief strategist Steve Bannon, formerly of Breitbart News and Jared Kushner, whose expertise is being the son-in-law of Trump. This is a crucial moment in US history, as Trump attempts to stop leaks from the intel gatherers he has frequently criticized.

One irony in the midst of what is clearly looming as a constitutional crisis is the public perception of the role of the Central Intelligence Agency. Steeped in a history of assassination, destabilization and infiltration of other governments, including working democracies, the Agency is now being counted upon by opponents of Trump’s intel totalitariansism to be some kind of whistleblowing knight in shining armor.

To understand how unexpected the above scenario is, one needs to consider author Douglas Valentine’s recent book The CIA As Organized Crime: How Illegal Operations Corrupt America and the World. In it, he has laid out not only some of the most egregious acts of the Agency but also how it now dominates branches like the Drug Enforcement Agency and State Department.

Valentine’s expansive, penetrating knowledge of the Central Intelligence Agency began with his book The Phoenix Program, the definitive work on the CIA-directed murder of between 25-40,000 civilians during the Vietnam War, suspected of affiliation with the Viet Cong, but without any kind of legal redress. These suspects, referred to as VCI or Viet Cong infrastructure, often accused via hearsay, could only be released by bribing local Vietnamese officials. As Valentine reports, CIA officer Lucien Conein called the Phoenix Program “the greatest blackmail scheme ever invented. If you don’t do what I want, you’re a VC.”

In addition to summarizing the Phoenix Program in his book, Valentine takes us through a horrifying history of Agency abuses in the name of democracy. From Southeast Asia, where the CIA funneled money to Laotian Hmong leader Vang Pao to fight North Vietnam, with opium as a financial benefit to the Agency, Valentine moves on to the CIA in the 80s. Here, he illuminates how the Agency “coerced law enforcement agencies into ‘looking away’ in regard to both cocaine smuggling by the Nicaraguan Contra terrorists and heroin trafficking by the Northern Alliance warlords fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan.”

Valentine contemporizes the moral relativity of CIA operations, the lesser-of-two-evils paradigm that historically morphs into the creation of newer and more potent enemies of the US. After the CIA used an early al-Qaeda to fight in Chechnya, Bosnia, Kosovo and other locations, our support of Hamid Karzai and his trafficking in opium led to an al-Qaeda committed to American destruction. “This same scenario,” Valentine writes, “has been playing out in Afghanistan for the last 15 years, largely through the DEA’s Special Operations Division (SOD), whose sole purpose is to provide cover for CIA operations worldwide.”

And connecting the CIA’s geopolitical relativism to even more current affairs, Valentine explores the recent failed support of the rebels in Bashar al-Assad’s Syria. Valentine emphasizes that “Iran publicly backs Assad, as does Russia, and that Iran seeks to help Assad defeat the rebels, many of whom are foreign mercenaries trained and financed by the CIA, Israel, Jordan, Turkey and Saudi Arabia.” Never have CIA loyalties been more confused and counterintuitive, Valentine asserts, than in a world where factions of our sworn enemies al-Qaeda and ISIS aid us in our failed attempt to depose Assad.

Now, FBI and Congressional investigations probe Trump’s connections to Russia, which must include the previous oil and gas business dealings of Secretary of State Rex Tillerson. Yet there is serious doubt about how deeply they will dig. The FBI’s James Comey was willing to sit on evidence about Michael Flynn presented by then acting Attorney General Sally Yates. The Republican controlled Congress and current Attorney General Jeff Sessions, who worked on the Trump campaign, have no commitment to actual revelations that would embarrass their own party, even if those facts revealed treasonous actions.

Thus, the CIA of old, who Douglas Valentine rightfully excoriates for its illegalities in the name of American national interests, has an unexpected and rare opportunity to remake its own image at this point in history. Whether it is done in the name of preserving CIA independence from Trump and people like Stephen Feinberg or in the name of preserving democracy, it seems the CIA, NSA and our intelligence partners around the world are now the only source of enlightenment about Trump’s true relationship to Putin’s Russia.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/58a ... e1e0e20877
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Re: Should the CIA choose our President?

Postby km artlu » Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:42 am

I see Willow's post above as a prime example of what RI can be at its best. It's analysis, or perhaps 'speculative analysis', and it strives to comprehend rather than to fervently advocate a conclusion.
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Re: Should the CIA choose our President?

Postby Heaven Swan » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:31 am

Project Willow » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:57 pm wrote:
Heaven Swan » 17 Feb 2017 04:36 wrote:This whole ordeal is much more stomach-turning for us, who have lived with this noxious clown for decades.

I regularly thank my lucky stars that I haven't personally crossed paths with him. Several of my friends haven't been so lucky. One worked as an entertainer at one of his events--and never got paid. He blasted another with crude sexism then in a stunningly petty and money-grubbing move, lifted her contract with a cease and desist order from his lawyer. Another, while working for him, found herself in a room where she was in earshot of his conversation with cronies. What he bragged about and the way he expressed himself was so vulgar, disturbing, sexist, racist, not to mention brazenly criminal, that I haven't repeated the details to anyone because it would sicken me to say it. You can't unhear this stuff though.

And my friend is not a politico, I believe her and it's clearly just typical, everyday behavior on his part.

And I have had contact with other evil presidents and they are so radically different, he is NOTHING like them-- who tend to be: slick as cellophane, blasting all citizens they meet with a warm gust of charm and 'concern' while projecting competence, even brilliance.

I may have dedicated my life to fighting against the evil, destructive and exploitative side of what they do but I can't say that they aren't professional and sane (in a their own sometimes diabolical way).

You could make a convincing argument that Trump and his crew's off the charts recklessness and incompetence is waking people up and providing an opening for change-- but you can't say it's not extremely dangerous.


Good point, but I want to expand on it a bit. Does he torture children on the weekends? Those more savvy politicians you've met, I've met some too, and in off hours they turn into exquisite predators. The intelligence that allows them to perform magnanimously in public is the same intelligence that sharpens their sociopathy in private.

I don't see that in Trump. In him I see a lot of fumbling weakness, no cortical facility under which to hide it and so to make exponential its impact.

That doesn't mean he isn't dangerous, and certainly in some aspects just as dangerous as those around him who may have more attuned gifts, but I don't think it is as bad. Hence we see resistance to him, where as before, there was little or none, or perhaps even conscious awareness, of the danger.

Edit: Formatting.


As far as I'm concerned, you're the only one here who has a valid excuse for being confused about Trump at this point.

We've all seen the cabinet picks, the circle of advisors, the out of control ranting at press conferences, etc, but you're the only one (as far as I know) who has PTSD from dealings with politicians.

I'm sorry about what happened to you and so many others, and I'm very angry about the public having been so apathetic about MKUltra and their abuse of American (and other) citizens. Their butt-sitting has been especially infuriating because the torture enthusiasts seem to have been turning their findings onto the American populace to transform them into boring PC workaholic drones.

I'm hoping, based on strong indications I'm seeing all around me, that these bourgeoise butt-sitters are finally awakening from their individualistic slumber.

The enemy of my enemy is not always my friend. Instead of scrambling to defend the indefensible might not it be better to ally with natural allies, that were, up until yesterday, bought off and lulled into inaction through psychological manipulation that appealed to their selfish side?

These are just some questions to ponder...
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Re: Should the CIA choose our President?

Postby Project Willow » Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:09 pm

^ I'm not confused about Trump, and I'm certainly not defending him (!). I just won't be cajoled into an irrational terror response. I'm not hopping on that train. He's not some huge new danger that sprang up out of nowhere, constituting an order of magnitude worse than the danger that's been operating behind the scenes all along. He is a product of that process, he is, in many respects, its unmasking. The unmasking is a crack in the facade, a way in. However, the terror being generated over him, this creation of a perfect vessel into which all outrage and (cough) resistance is to be poured, is a magician's trick, ensuring the system itself will be ignored.
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