What is #Pizzagate?

[Elvis]

What you're saying is that you have absolute certainty?

That is to me the gist of the disagreements here; it's difficult to have absolute certainty from any perspective.

What is pretty certain is that Laura Silsby tried to sneak a bunch of kids (who were not orphans as she claimed) out of Haiti, and the Clintons and the Clinton Foundation helped get her out of the jam. #Pizzagate may get some credit for making more people aware of those events, and I hope the FBI or somebody is still watching Silsby.

But the facts of the Silsby case are peripheral to "Pizzagate" and there's no way I can be certain that Alefante's quite unremarkable political links to Clinton—one or two pizza parlor fundraisers?—necessarily connect him directly to child trafficking (his weird online commentor friends aside).


To make a point:

Following the "Pizzagate" standards of evidence which lead its exponents to such degrees of certainty, I am involved in human trafficking because I'm very close to someone who's very close to one of the people who helped run a recently busted call-girl operation that was initially reported as a "human trafficking" operation. There could be a headline:

Internet Poster "Elvis" Met With Human Trafficker

because I met the person once years ago.

Never mind that subsequent news reports corrected the "trafficking" notion when it was realized that the women working there were in charge and nobody was "trafficking" them.

Just from reading the news, there can always be that doubt: are the corrections just another PTB cover-up?

This person Elvis also seems to spend a lot of time rather smugly "debunking" Pizzagate on the Internet forum "RI" which some say could be a long-term Internet honeypot designed to diffuse awareness of high-level child sex abuse.

If that isn't enough 'smoke' take a look at the whacked "art" this Elvis person posts online:

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=17577&start=1245#p528690


This is so obviously fucked up. If you still think "Elvis" is so innocent, there's probably something wrong with you. To summarize: connected with reported sex traffickers; consistently "debunks" Pizzagate behind a guise of "rationality" (I know the rules so I won't say what I really think); posts bizarre, degenerate "art" that appears to sexualize the heads of babies. And for the record, they have never denied being involved in child trafficking.

Think what you want. I suppose the Silsby thing is all fake too?

[OP ED]

AD I didn't ask about hypothetical children, I was asking about the real ones. Where are they now? Who are they?

(The point is that we don't know or know if there were others, we only know about any of it because they got caught)

If the well is poisoned, who poisoned it?

[JackRiddler]

If the well is poisoned, who poisoned it?

That's easy. Wells no longer need to be poisoned. That's a pre-post-truth idea, that's Soviet-era cut-and-paste propaganda. They are pre-poisoned. The anti-rational way of thinking that Elvis describes is now accustomed and ensconced in a broad "conspiracy" culture, arises spontaneously, and drives itself. Go and try to fact-check sincerely and stick to best evidence. You'll just be worked into the weave as "controlled opposition" or "useful idiot." It's a sport and a cottage industry to overwhelm serious investigation with one's own scenario wish-fulfillment, and there are a host of players and agendas. Everything real that can possibly come out will be rendered into a ludicrous extreme version with endless irrelevant associations, and then refuted on those grounds. Also, labeled and refuted by its provenance (altogether fair when it is cooked up in 4chan or Alex Jones). Everything real that can possibly come out is already pre-discredited. This also worked to Clinton's advantage (all bad stories relating to her regardless of truth content can be called VRWC material, since so many of them actually are), as much as to Trump's (it's all fake news).

.

[brekin]

I'm just going to say it, I think there is a very good possibility that the PG was initiated by the FSB (KGB).
Ok, settle down for a minute. Open your med kids, take a chill pill and now cogitate.

First, it would take some time to sift Podesta's emails and create the kooky decoder ring of "code words" and then fit it to the narrative and locales.
1. I don't see someone doing that unless they got paid to do it.
2. And having the time to do so before the election unless they were in on the initial hack.
3. Third, PG is pretty crude. It has the feel of a very smart outsider dabbling in things that they know but don't really know. I mean there are existing narratives going back decades that could have been grafted and coopted that already have legs, but PG feels like a template to destabilize a countries political structure (the belgian politco abuse ring allegations come to mind as a possible real incident used then as a template for PG) from the outside.
4.The later tying in of previous material feels ad hoc, retrospective and amateurish. Most good conspiracies build on what has come before to link the narrative to a coherent development. This is more like in High School that international exchange kid's brilliant but completely flawed presentation on American Rock & Roll.
5. Of course, not to say such events don't exist, but PG is also fishy because it is pretty partisan. Real examples would not be so partisan, I would imagine, because matrices of real power that intersect and overlap the parties in D.C. couldn't be so one party (because the other party would use it as dynamite to bring them to their knees).
6. If it was US intelligence based, then they would probably just expose, craft or fabricate such a scenario with real or more plausibility. If you are going to create such a conspiracy, why not really create it if you have the power? PG seems like someone with reach but not depth.

The latest indictment of FSB agents involved in the hack of Yahoo just makes me believe that it probably was FSB gathered, hatched and disseminated, at least in the early stages.

DOJ: 2 Russian spies indicted in Yahoo hack
By Pamela Brown, Scott Glover and Mary Kay Mallonee, CNN
Updated 12:30 PM ET, Wed March 15, 2017

Washington (CNN)The Department of Justice announced Wednesday that four people -- including two officers of the Russian Federal Security Service (FSB) -- have been indicted in connection to a massive hack of Yahoo information.
The hack, which the DOJ said was initiated in January 2014, affected at least 500 million Yahoo accounts. Some of the stolen information was used to "obtain unauthorized access to the contents of accounts at Yahoo, Google and other webmail providers, including accounts of Russian journalists, US and Russian government officials and private-sector employees of financial, transportation and other companies," the DOJ said in a statement.
The officers of the FSB -- Russia's successor to the Soviet Union's KGB -- were identified as Igor Anatolyevich Sushchin, 43, and Dmitry Aleksandrovich Dokuchaev, 33. The two allegedly conspired with Russian national Alexsey Alexseyevich Belan, aka "Magg," 29, and Karim Baratov, aka "Kay," "Karim Taloverov" and "Karim Akehmet Tokbergenov," 22, who is a resident of Canada.

Dokuchaev was arrested in a Russian sweep in December and accused of spying for the US.
"The criminal conduct at issue -- carried out and otherwise facilitated by officers from an FSB unit that serves as the FBI's point of contact in Moscow on cybercrime matters -- is beyond the pale," acting Assistant Attorney General Mary McCord said at a news conference in Washington.
Hackers stole data that included names, email addresses and passwords -- but not financial information, according to Yahoo's announcement regarding the breaches.
Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer publicly thanked US authorities Wednesday, saying she was "very grateful" to the FBI and DOJ.
The San Francisco FBI office has scheduled a news conference for later Wednesday afternoon on undisclosed topics.
Yahoo has been breached at least twice, and the company previously said a September 2014 breach was state-sponsored but declined to identify who it believed was responsible.
The announcement of another cyberintrusion by Russian hackers comes at a time of delicate relations between the US and Russia.
The Yahoo hack is the latest cyberattack that US authorities have blamed on Russia, a nation with which President Donald Trump's new administration has sought to foster warmer relations.
Previous attacks US authorities have said Russian hackers perpetrated exposed the emails of Hillary Clinton's campaign chairman, John Podesta, and the internal workings of the Democratic National Committee.
This story has been updated to reflect new developments.

[Wombaticus Rex]

1. I don't see someone doing that unless they got paid to do it.

Then you're getting too old to keep up. That's a big one, bud.

If you can't understand the fact that there are millions of Americans with that kind of free time -- and no income source -- shit will only get more baffling (and ominously RUSSIAN) from here.

Who do you think is paying 8chan to play capture the flag with Shia?

For that matter, who do you think is paying me when I make memes?



You're on a conspiracy theory forum where adult human beings put in exponentially more time on equally questionable pastimes. You've been here for fucking years now, too. Think about that.

[American Dream]

Hmm- not sure I'm convinced, brekin but an intriguing hypothesis.

Both Russian information warfare personnel and Alt-Right social injustice warriors know that there are people in the conspiracy realm who are relatively easy to manipulate: who is more likely to have the cultural competence to pull it off, as wack as many of the central claims might be?

[brekin]

1. I don't see someone doing that unless they got paid to do it.

Then you're getting too old to keep up. That's a big one, bud.
If you can't understand the fact that there are millions of Americans with that kind of free time -- and no income source -- shit will only get more baffling (and ominously RUSSIAN) from here.
Who do you think is paying 8chan to play capture the flag with Shia?
For that matter, who do you think is paying me when I make memes?

You're on a conspiracy theory forum where adult human beings put in exponentially more time on equally questionable pastimes. You've been here for fucking years now, too. Think about that.

Wait a doggone minute whipper snapper.
No doubt there is the internet undead who chew over this all again and again.
They are legion.
But I still see initially someone having to be paid to have a premeditated plan to snatch and then hatch PG.
There really are three possibilities:

1. It was an organic crowd sourcing conspiracy.
2. It was orchestrated state side by a partisan group
3. It was orchestrated state side by an intelligence agency
4. It was orchestrated overseas by an intelligence group
5. It was orchestrated overseas by an intelligence group in league with a US partisan group

I don't see 1. being all that plausible originally. (Yes, after it was released then all the fanboys starting creating their own mods and it is its own self supporting industry) Also, 2. & 3. would run the risk of exposing either to major political and legal blowback if it came to light. Even 4. & 5. probably has set up some plausible deniability through contractors.

And thanks for reminding me of my long service here.
Where's my gold watch, sonny?

[American Dream]

Could not the Alt-Right/Trump crowd have scared up a few bucks to plan and execute such an effort, independent of the Russians? I think they could have, though I recognize that Putin and his crew are spending a shit ton on their own own Internet projects.

[JackRiddler]

One of those is prima-facie what it is, and there is little gain for any of the other possibilities to disguise themselves as anything else:

1. It was an organic crowd sourcing conspiracy.
(by a partisan group)
(no conflict between these two)

The rest would be very unlikely to look the way the PG micro-eruption looks. An intelligence agency/group would try to come up with something more believable and compact (without the infinite add-ons). Something remotely actionable for prosecutors, for example.

Your list is a case of confusing yourself unnecessarily.

The Russia shit again, you're already blaming them for "hacking" and "releasing" the Podesta/DNC mails, right? Once these are available and searcheable it takes mere hours for the online Encyclopedia Browns to construct any damn thing they please (if proceeding from the premise that any word could be code, and thus read as any meaning at the reader's whim, it's a piece of cake).

.

[tapitsbo]

A lot of people's questions about PG feel far short of Elvis' mock allegation. I do appreciate some of the sketchiness around PG you guys are pointing to

[brekin]

One of those is prima-facie what it is, and there is little gain for any of the other possibilities to disguise themselves as anything else:

1. It was an organic crowd sourcing conspiracy.
(by a partisan group)
(no conflict between these two)
The rest would be very unlikely to look the way the PG micro-eruption looks. An intelligence agency/group would try to come up with something more believable and compact (without the infinite add-ons). Something remotely actionable for prosecutors, for example.
Your list is a case of confusing yourself unnecessarily.
The Russia shit again, you're already blaming them for "hacking" and "releasing" the Podesta/DNC mails, right? Once these are available and searcheable it takes mere hours for the online Encyclopedia Browns to construct any damn thing they please (if proceeding from the premise that any word could be code, and thus read as any meaning at the reader's whim, it's a piece of cake).
.

My guess is PG was one of many "trial balloons" to discredit the dems around election time from the FSB (with or without Trump & Co. collusion).
Considering its stupidity its sticking and longevity might have been a surprise to even them.
I agree a US intelligence/group would try to come up with something more believable, compact and prosecutable with the usual "leaks to the press" and story originating in the standard press. But a foreign intelligence/group wouldn't have that degree of access or story creation and so would have to design the story nodes ahead of time to feed to the second, third handers as bread crumbs.

For example, why were the Podesta emails released instead of no doubt scores of others staffers, etc. who were also involved in the campaign and email accounts were no doubt hacked? My guess is before they released the Podesta trove to the bush league Encyclopedia Browns and the minor league fake news farms they had for months before hand been skimming their cache of emails to isolate an individual and concoct some narrative that if not had a high degree of reliability, required a lot of research into real events and locales and so not completely easy deniability/dismissal.

PG wasn't a crowd sourced conspiracy fan fiction that got out of control but a unfinished trashy pot boiler left in waiting rooms for people to pick up. I think it had original authors working with a sense of urgency and plotting, at FSB publishing.

Not how PG started:



How PG started:



Minor league fake news farms:

The Macedonian Teens Who Mastered Fake News
https://www.wired.com/2017/02/veles-mac ... fake-news/

The first article about Donald Trump that Boris ever published described how, during a campaign rally in North Carolina, the candidate slapped a man in the audience for disagreeing with him. This never happened, of course. Boris had found the article somewhere online, and he needed to feed his web­site, Daily Interesting Things, so he appropriated the text, down to its last mis­begotten comma. He posted the link on Facebook, seeding it within various groups devoted to American politics; to his astonish­ment, it was shared around 800 times. That month—February 2016—Boris made more than $150 off the Google ads on his website. Considering this to be the best possible use of his time, he stopped going to high school.
...

[liminalOyster]

Origins aside, I really don't understand why Pizzagate has *sustained* such an industrious bunch for this many months - invariably the mean number of users active at any moment when I visit the VOAT sub is around 1000. Certainly looks like a sweatshop even though I agree with Wombat the labor is most likely uncompensated.

Total side note but I recently saw a page full of CPP's pizza pies on an empty stomach and fuck does their pizza look good. I admittedly don't believe the big picture of the theory is likely true (though Podestas, Hastert etc seems plausible) so I don't feel conflicted about the fact that I'm thinking of eating there when I visit town for a conference nearby in a few months. Will report back if I discover vast and unspeakable evil lurking under the cheese.

[brekin]

Origins aside, I really don't understand why Pizzagate has *sustained* such an industrious bunch for this many months - invariably the mean number of users active at any moment when I visit the VOAT sub is around 1000. Certainly looks like a sweatshop even though I agree with Wombat the labor is most likely uncompensated.

Because they want it to be true.

Total side note but I recently saw a page full of CPP's pizza pies on an empty stomach and fuck does their pizza look good. I admittedly don't believe the big picture of the theory is likely true (though Podestas, Hastert etc seems plausible) so I don't feel conflicted about the fact that I'm thinking of eating there when I visit town for a conference nearby in a few months. Will report back if I discover vast and unspeakable evil lurking under the cheese.

Irregardless of what dwells beneath, cheese itself is evil.

Cheese really is like crack: Study reveals the food triggers the same part of the brain as drugs
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... ers-brain-

Cheese is as addictive as drugs because of a chemical called casein
This is found in dairy products and can trigger brain's opioid receptors
Opiod receptors are linked to the control of pain, reward and addiction
...

[Rory]

It's not cheese, it's Russian smegma.

*and the tomato "sauce" is Soviet era menses.

[brekin]

It's not cheese, it's Russian smegma.
*and the tomato "sauce" is Soviet era menses.

Jesus, man get a hold of yourself.
You really do need a ban-holiday.