The Russian Conspiracy as RI subject

[liminalOyster]

Is there already a thread devoted to agnostic and/or slightly more woo synchronistic speculation about all this? I have no clue what is going on and am the first to admit it. If I'm missing the obvious big picture view, I'm really curious to hear more about it.

The data dumps are a fantastic resource but the only thread that I am aware of which is somewhat meta is still allied with the opinion that more or less the entirety of Russian involvement in our current miasma is a useful fiction.

Pundits not name here blaming Putin for yesterday's self-radicalized idiocratic terror event seems to signal a rhetorical escalation, IMHO. So I thought I'd at least start a meta-thread, if knowing full well it may end up buried deep here.

FWIW my Afghani Uber driver yesterday (20 year ago ago refugee) talked about the Taliban solely in terms of Soviet/Russian vs US proxy war. He believes Russia was behind 9/11. Meh. But rhetorically and otherwise, I was interested to recall that the initial military response that day had purportedly been to go to nuclear footing as the scenario closely matched what US military had expected in the event of iminent nuclear strike by Russia. Is that perhaps a plausible endgame? ISIS dirty bomb in the midwest is blamed on Russia leads to nuclear strike?

[seemslikeadream]

I think it would be great if we could discuss this without the "Russian Hacking" angle. It seems to me that would be a good way to start since at this point no one can produce concrete evidence that the Russians were behind the actual hack, maybe yes maybe no...maybe it was inserted into the whole thing for some unknown reason but the evidence of trump and crew involvement with Russian oligarchs/mobsters conspiracy is overwhelming and I would like to stick to that aspect of it if possible.

[liminalOyster]

I think it would be great if we could discuss this without the "Russian Hacking" angle. It seems to me that would be a good way to start since at this point no one can produce concrete evidence that the Russians were behind the actual hack, maybe yes maybe no...maybe it was inserted into the whole thing for some unknown reason but the evidence of trump and crew involvement with Russian oligarchs/mobsters conspiracy is overwhelming and I would like to stick to that aspect of it if possible.

It seems overwhelming to the point that it must have been pretty much common knowledge to the Clinton network throughout the election, no? Is there any evidence that whatever arms of the PTB that remain largely out of view gamed the events now unfolding? And to what end? What good is served for who by president Mike Pence, among other things?

[American Dream]

I think the most useful analysis is rooted in a broadly anti-imperialist "Fight the Power" perspective. This suggests a deep critique of the U.S., NATO, the Israeli State and those most closely aligned with this power bloc but also the governments of Russia, Iran, Syria etc. as representing competing elites far, far more than the working class Multitude.

In other words: war crimes are still war crimes, covert operations are still covert operations, reactionary agenda are still reactionary agenda. Democrats vs. Republicans, U.S. vs. Russia, whatever else- it's time to expand our map but keep ourselves grounded in good principles and practices.

[Rory]

The hacking angle is the lynchpin of the whole hysteria. It's where it all started, and the only thing the majority of the news consuming public are considering:

Russia hacked the election. That right there is the narrative.

Yes, It's clear that Russian businessmen and Russian banks and companies have dealings with Trump or his associates. But ditto for America, China, Germany, Ukraine, and a handful of other countries. The connection is Trump, money, and corruption. Without the lurid hacking angle then its just another tale of Trump getting his hands dirty.

The 'hacking' is where it all started and is absolutely central to any meta analysis.

[liminalOyster]

The hacking angle is the lynchpin of the whole hysteria. It's where it all started, and the only thing the majority of the news consuming public are considering:

Russia hacked the election. That right there is the narrative.

Yes, It's clear that Russian businessmen and Russian banks and companies have dealings with Trump or his associates. But ditto for America, China, Germany, Ukraine, and a handful of other countries. The connection is Trump, money, and corruption. Without the lurid hacking angle then its just another tale of Trump getting his hands dirty.

The 'hacking' is where it all started and is absolutely central to any meta analysis.

Shortly before the hacking story coalesced, there were limited media "events" (in unreliable news media mostly) suggesting that Putin was about to reveal 9/11 was an inside job info and claiming that HRC's fainting episode (at 9/11 memorial event) was a Russian operation.

[seemslikeadream]

the linch pin is trump's involvement with Russian oligarchs/monsters going back 30 years..that's where the crimes are

no need to invest in the hacking angle which is apparently unprovable at this point


$500 billion oil deal EXXON/Russia is no small potatoes

[tapitsbo]

100 years since the Russian revolution is a clue to the symbolic hijinx going on

prediction: we'll be hearing an awful lot about the turkish republic come its centennial

both presidential campaigns had ties to the "russian mafia" obviously

the "mad oracles" helming the Russia hysteria are people like Louse Mensch and John Schindler - are we really supposed to believe there isn't an esoteric message there?

If anything Russia's image is being rehabilitated in the West by the use of those sorts of figures.

[seemslikeadream]

Condoleezza Rice, Robert Gates, and Stephen Hadley

bush/cheney people paid by Tillerson to get Sec of State job

Rex Tillerson’s name was suggested to Donald Trump by three establishment Republicans who represented him
Tillerson's company was a client of three insiders who suggested he be chosen to lead the Department of State

Rex Tillerson's name was suggested to Donald Trump by three establishment Republicans who represented him
(Credit: AP Photo/J. Scott Applewhite)
When President-elect Donald Trump selected Rex Tillerson to be his secretary of state, he consulted members of the Republican Party elite who have done business with ExxonMobil in the past.

Condoleezza Rice, Robert Gates, and Stephen Hadley were all instrumental in convincing Trump to choose Tillerson

[Luther Blissett]

Does anyone have any indication how much the average non-political U.S. citizen conflates "her emails" from the server headlines going back to 2015 with the Podesta phishing leak?

"But her emails!" has been both a serious rallying cry and a joke for almost two years now and I'm never sure what people mean or know when they use it.

[semper occultus]

I think the most useful analysis is rooted in a broadly anti-imperialist "Fight the Power" perspective. This suggests a deep critique of the U.S., NATO, the Israeli State and those most closely aligned with this power bloc but also the governments of Russia, Iran, Syria etc. as representing competing elites far, far more than the working class Multitude.

...except covert ops are intimately connected to & defined by multitudes - Lawrence & the Arabs vs the Ottomans, the Nazis & Islamists vs the Allies - today its the Eastern Ukrainians & Putin vs the other lot of crooks & nazis - they call it "blow-back" but that basically translates as the PTB generally haven't got a clue who/what they're dealing with every time they kick one of these wasp-nests over & can't control it when they do

[American Dream]

Yes, "blowback" definitely happens and to effectively understand it you definitely need an analysis of autonomous social forces but not in isolation. There are generally powerful institutional forces that frame the various theaters of social struggle.

More than anything, nuance is needed...

[seemslikeadream]

it has been and always will be about O. I. L.

[brekin]

Is there already a thread devoted to agnostic and/or slightly more woo synchronistic speculation about all this? I have no clue what is going on and am the first to admit it. If I'm missing the obvious big picture view, I'm really curious to hear more about it.

The data dumps are a fantastic resource but the only thread that I am aware of which is somewhat meta is still allied with the opinion that more or less the entirety of Russian involvement in our current miasma is a useful fiction.

I don't know if you are speaking of/familar with this thread started in July 2016, which was the origin of the "great divide" in RI opinion on Russian Conspiracy in US?
As you can tell from the thread title some people on boarded with a certain bias.

Worst conspiracy theory ever.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39903

The wrinkle with anything shortly before that Mason-Dixon line of a thread is that (pre-Trump reign) in threads it is just assumed Russia is a meddlin, hackin, false-flaggin and a wackin, like any other zero sum super power and so there is no real mewling obstructionism to discussing or laying that out. So most threads before that discussing Russia or Putin are much more agnostic, or more seasoned and reasoned about not demonizing Russia/Putin but not seeing it through rose colored glasses either. But to bring any of that activity from the last 30 years up now, strangely, magically, gets associated with the McCarthy era in the 1950's, 60 years ago. Or raises the specter of being in league with Hillary of the Thrill, Kill, Cult a.k.a. Dr. Strangelove.

[seemslikeadream]

fun thread....my first and only post in it was the last one

nice that Steven Handley and Russian expert Condi Rice got their guy back in the WH...that would be $500 billion dollar Tillerson