Sounder wrote:People that want to tear down statutes are lacking in appreciation for history and context. Robert E. Lee was anti-slavery.
These nihilists are built around hate and disdain toward the marketplace of ideas. They can scream and no-platform all they want as the deep-state has their backs given that any unity among the citizens is their only natural threat.
While I personally don't think all Confederate statues should come down, I do believe each city has the right to vote on it and the opposition has the right to take it to court. That's what happened in Charlottesville and they lost.
Calling descendants of slaves "nihilists" sure sounds like SpencerSpeak. "Marketplace of ideas" sure is a bullshit political term meaning absolutely nothing.
So predictable and timely, Sounder. We're all interested in what this disgraced woman has to say. If anything, she is the extreme example of how lasting the damage done from slavery is.
In November 2015, Vanderbilt University students started a petition on Change.org, asking administrators to terminate her from teaching and require her to attend diversity training sessions. The students accused Swain of becoming, "synonymous with bigotry, intolerance, and unprofessionalism."[41][42] The petition garnered over 1,000 signatures within days.[41] She responded by calling those students, "...sad and pathetic, in the sense that they're college students and they should be open to hearing more than one viewpoint."[41][42] The petition underwent some revisions that changed to asking administrators to only suspend Swain and requiring all professors to attend diversity training.[43] Meanwhile, Nicholas S. Zeppos, the chancellor of Vanderbilt University, issued a statement saying that while Swain's views are not the same as the university's, the university is committed to free speech and academic freedom.[44] Additionally, a pro-Swain petition was started by her supporters, who suggested the student petition was "reminiscent of China's Cultural Revolution, when student Red Guards made false and ridiculous accusations against their professors."[45]
In January 2017, Swain announced that she would retire from Vanderbilt in August, and stated, "I will not miss what American universities have allowed themselves to become".[46] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_M._Swain
I suggest you read more about the person you choose to quote if you care not to be identified with the hateful philosophy of a woman loathing her heritage who adopted the mindset of her ancestors oppressors.
Clearly these statues aren't doing a very good job of teaching history if people can, with no hint of irony, say that the top general of the CSA, a man who owned slaves himself, was "anti-slavery."
But that's exactly what these statues were erected for. To white-wash a really terrifying history. Robert E. Lee becomes an "anti-slavery" figure instead of the person in charge of leading a war to defend slavery.
But years later, in 1866, one former slave at Arlington House, Wesley Norris, gave his testimony to the National Anti-Slavery Standard. Mr. Norris said that he and others at Arlington were indeed told by Mr. Custis they would be freed upon his death, but that Lee had told them to stay for five more years.
So Mr. Norris said he, a sister and a cousin tried to escape in 1859, but were caught. “We were tied firmly to posts by a Mr. Gwin, our overseer, who was ordered by Gen. Lee to strip us to the waist and give us fifty lashes each, excepting my sister, who received but twenty,” he said.
And when the overseer declined to wield the lash, a constable stepped up, Mr. Norris said. He added that Lee had told the constable to “lay it on well.”
Dr. Foner said that after the war, Lee did not support rights for black citizens, such as the right to vote, and was largely silent about violence perpetrated by white supremacists during Reconstruction.
Iamwhomiam » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:33 pm wrote:So should parents be forbidden to bring their children to church, or worse, leave their education to strangers by attending public school full-time?
While I agree that children should not be brought to demonstrations where violence can be expected, I do believe children should be taught there are some issues that require more than your vote that sometimes requires your public protest.
That said,
The main thing is to steer well clear of any kind of political analysis that reminds folks about that corporatocracy, or how much it costs to get elected to office, and where the majority of that money comes from, and thus how irrelevant electoral politics is.
That's what will happen to your kids if you don't involve them early, they'll go down that rabbit hole into blindness. Or just skip the demonstrations and train them to vote for Santa.
Everything we do, we should be doing for the benefit of little people who will quickly grow and become adults, our children.
Honestly yes. I think church is no place for children (but then I think church is no place for people period. "Church" here being a catch-all for organized religion). Comparing it to public schools is in my opinion a poor comparison; it's not the same thing. One is brainwashing, the other education. One stunts the brain, the other (hopefully) expands it. I also think religious schools should be outright banned and that a strict religious upbringing should be counted as child abuse.
Other than that I agree with you.
Let me explain my remarks. Some see public education as equivalent to brain washing. Many from the right are now of the mind that public schools indoctrinate their children with liberal beliefs. Teaching young people, other peoples kids, to think independently counters their parents intention that they "carry on tradition," whether religious or political. Now we have for-profit "Charter Schools" made available to fill the need for those who do not choose to home-school their children and are afraid of public school teachers turning their children into, good god, liberals! Church, can be a source for adopting a moral code, if one's home imbues none. Most unlikely a child would seek out a religious education if not indoctrinated at an early age. If the young are taught to think for themselves, we should trust they won't become missionaries - but there is that risk!
I do believe it is not good to use a child for a prop at a demonstration. However, if an issue directly effects them, I see no harm in having them with you in protest or a demonstration of support. Better if a child is old enough to understand the issue, of course. But never where angry confrontation is expected. No one should want to demonstrate to impressionable children that angry shouting is a mature way to get your way.
We'll have Religion around for at least as long as we'll have Wrestling & Nuclear Weapons. Unfortunate for some and a blessing for others - whacha gonna do? Scotch or Rye? Brandy, for me.
We're ages from ridding ourselves of religion, Elvis. The Great War Between Religions has barely begun. But yeah, one could wish humans finally realize humanity is all we've got to depend upon.
Calling descendants of slaves "nihilists" sure sounds like SpencerSpeak.
I Imagine there is not much I could say that does not sound like spencer speak, but that is on you not me.
No I am speaking of the white exceptionalists that sponsor things like Ukrainian Fascists, demonizing Russia, undermining sovereign nations to promote chaos and ruining many peoples lives, they also sponsor the divisiveness currently expressed in western countries.
They are white western exceptionalists who depend on creating suffering for the masses of any and all races because that's how their money is made.
They are racists, yet they run you around like you are a dog on a leash. Oh the irony.
As far as the vid goes, it would be nice if someone here would address the content rather than feeling so free to slander the person and then consider that you have successfully 'shamed' the person that posted it. Grow up.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
God, where to begin. So much wrong in so few words.
Sounder » Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:34 pm wrote:People that want to tear down statutes are lacking in appreciation for history and context. Robert E. Lee was anti-slavery.
The people who want to tear down this statue (I'm assuming you meant statue and not statute) are the ones who have an appreciation for history. It's the fucking Nazis and their defenders (in this case you) who wouldn't know history if it came up and sucker-punched them in the nuts.
It doesn't fucking matter if he was anti-slavery (and that's, to put it mildly, a questionable assertion) or not because that's not what the statue represents. It's not a monument to anti-slavery and you fucking well know that. There's also the small matter of him leading the army of the Confederates, which was fighting for the right to keep slaves.
These nihilists are built around hate and disdain toward the marketplace of ideas and any concepts of sovereign nationhood. They can scream and no-platform all they want as the deep-state has their backs given that any unity among the citizens is their only natural threat.
A) People who oppose Nazis are not nihilists, they're decent human beings. B) People who think opposing Nazis makes you a nihilist should get a fucking dictionary. Edit: B.5) I see you meant them and not the counter-protesters. And no, it's not our fault that you sound like you do. That's entirely on you. C) This is the marketplace of ideas (for someone who dislikes our corporate overlords as much as you do you sure love to use their language) in action. The 'market' is saying loud and clear: FUCK OFF NAZIS. D) Sovereign nationhood wut?
By the by, it is not so much the .01% we have to worry about, rather it is the 10% that act as the enforcers of the .01% dominant narrative.
No, it's the stupid motherfuckers who go on incoherent rants against the evils of the nihilist left in defense of Nazis who just murdered someone that we have to worry about.
Btw: The Daily Shitstorm now has .ru and .onion addresses (both deliciously ironic) in case you're having trouble finding the site.
Last edited by DrEvil on Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I only read American. I want my fantasy pure." - Dave
Sounder » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:34 am wrote:People that want to tear down statutes are lacking in appreciation for history and context. Robert E. Lee was anti-slavery.
These nihilists are built around hate and disdain toward the marketplace of ideas and any concepts of sovereign nationhood. They can scream and no-platform all they want as the deep-state has their backs given that any unity among the citizens is their only natural threat.
By the by, it is not so much the .01% we have to worry about, rather it is the 10% that act as the enforcers of the .01% dominant narrative.
That's just not true, Sounder. Your first sentence. Personally, I feel the only statues we should honor with public display should be for teachers, physicians and scientists, when deserving of such honor. To hell with all statues honoring war & war heroes. Perhaps if anywhere in public view, perhaps on memorial fields, like Arlington or Gettysburg. Aside from those sites, perhaps they could be placed in museums, where such relics of times past belong and where they would have the educational value you seem to believe they possess. Words have sufficed well for me. I would like to see Sheridan's statue removed from the front lawn of our state capitol, too. His famous line: "The only good Indian is a dead Indian" How about the term, "scorched earth policy," his signature legacy as a U.S. Civil War hero.
"We should cherish our history," huh, Sounder? How are all those Cromwell statues in Ireland doing? Are they "cherished" by the people they're on display for, those subjects to the Crown?
Last edited by Iamwhomiam on Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Calling descendants of slaves "nihilists" sure sounds like SpencerSpeak.
I Imagine there is not much I could say that does not sound like spencer speak, but that is on you not me.
No I am speaking of the white exceptionalists that sponsor things like Ukrainian Fascists, demonizing Russia, undermining sovereign nations to promote chaos and ruining many peoples lives, they also sponsor the divisiveness currently expressed in western countries.
They are white western exceptionalists who depend on creating suffering for the masses of any and all races because that's how their money is made.
They are racists, yet they run you around like you are a dog on a leash. Oh the irony.
As far as the vid goes, it would be nice if someone here would address the content rather than feeling so free to slander the person and then consider that you have successfully 'shamed' the person that posted it. Grow up.
It's always funny to read a supremacist demean "exceptionalists." (Their own made-up word, btw, where "Capitalist" would suffice.
I have to imagine Sounder hasn't the decency to mention who he is writing about, but I seem to be the only one to criticize his go-to at the moment minority who supports their view. Writing the absolute truth about someone is not slander, Sounder. She was a tenured professor who was fired because of her extremist far-right views. At Vanderbuilt! I have not sought to shame her, but you, for using her bs as though it carried the weight of truth. Yes, I should grow up and ignore very smart people who know nothing about their source of biased information.
Calling descendants of slaves "nihilists" sure sounds like SpencerSpeak.
They are racists, yet they run you around like you are a dog on a leash. Oh the irony.
Uh, dude, nobody is running me around like a dog on a leash. You know, right now I'm feeling a little conflicted. As a kid I was told that I was related to Robert E. Lee and damn, if my father wasn't the spittin' image of him (he also resembled Sean Connery so much that people in airports asked him for his autograph).
It's a serious mistake to assume all white southerners are racists and that any talk of heritage is code for racism and pro-slavery sentiment. Most of the Confederate soldiers who fought and died were from dirt farming families. Po folks, not slave owners or benefactors from slavery.
People like to honor their family who came before, even if they died fighting on the wrong side of a war.
The book "Cold Mountain" by Charles Frazier is a good contemporary novel that describes some of the shit whites in the south went through. Not all is black and white.
Of course the torch mob's performance had nothing to do with honoring family. It had everything to do with giving the KKK a kinder, more gentler appearance. Polo shirts, not sheets. Tiki torches, not burning crosses. Saving statues, not ethnic cleansing.
It's a serious mistake to assume all white southerners are racists and that any talk of heritage is code for racism and pro-slavery sentiment. Most of the Confederate soldiers who fought and died were from dirt farming families. Po folks, not slave owners or benefactors from slavery.
People like to honor their family who came before, even if they died fighting on the wrong side of a war.
The book "Cold Mountain" by Charles Frazier is a good contemporary novel that describes some of the shit whites in the south went through. Not all is black and white.
Of course the torch mob's performance had nothing to do with honoring family. It had everything to do with giving the KKK a kinder, more gentler appearance. Polo shirts, not sheets. Tiki torches, not burning crosses. Saving statues, not ethnic cleansing.
I agree with everything you said here Blue. The torch mob was similar to the torch mobs in Ukraine.
All these things will continue as long as coercion remains a central element of our mentality.
Blue, it's a wonderful thing to pay honor to your ancestors, but one must look at their entire history. If your ancestor was a slave-owning traitor to the USA, Lee, who led the army of the confederacy in the deadliest battles in US history, an enemy pledged to secede from and destroy our union, we should not honor such a man more publicly. Very few do not know who Lee was. He was a great general in an enemy army who lost an unjust war and we, as victors, owe the traitor nothing.
Where's London's statue honoring Hitler? I know, an extraordinary example, but really, which nation's erect statues to honor their defeated enemies? How utterly ridiculous to believe we should.
Having public statues on display today, still honoring those who wanted to destroy our union is a dangerous and constant reminder to the generations descended from the original losers that "The South Will Rise Again!"
Why not move such statues to halls of museums, where those who seek to adore them would be able to do so in perpetuity without daily insulting the descendants of those they fought to retain in slavery.
Calling descendants of slaves "nihilists" sure sounds like SpencerSpeak.
They are racists, yet they run you around like you are a dog on a leash. Oh the irony.
Uh, dude, nobody is running me around like a dog on a leash. You know, right now I'm feeling a little conflicted. As a kid I was told that I was related to Robert E. Lee and damn, if my father wasn't the spittin' image of him (he also resembled Sean Connery so much that people in airports asked him for his autograph).
It's a serious mistake to assume all white southerners are racists and that any talk of heritage is code for racism and pro-slavery sentiment. Most of the Confederate soldiers who fought and died were from dirt farming families. Po folks, not slave owners or benefactors from slavery.
People like to honor their family who came before, even if they died fighting on the wrong side of a war.
The book "Cold Mountain" by Charles Frazier is a good contemporary novel that describes some of the shit whites in the south went through. Not all is black and white.
Of course the torch mob's performance had nothing to do with honoring family. It had everything to do with giving the KKK a kinder, more gentler appearance. Polo shirts, not sheets. Tiki torches, not burning crosses. Saving statues, not ethnic cleansing.
Not all poor white southerners fought for the slave owners. Slaves and poor white farmers fought side by side for the Union and established the 'Free State of Jones" in the heart of Mississippi.
Why no statues in their honor? This example of black and white unity, apart from last year's movie, is buried history.
The True Story of the ‘Free State of Jones’
A new Hollywood movie looks at the tale of the Mississippi farmer who led a revolt against the Confederacy By Richard Grant; Photographs by William Widmer Smithsonian Magazine March 2016 27K513387387212K
With two rat terriers trotting at his heels, and a long wooden staff in his hand, J.R. Gavin leads me through the woods to one of the old swamp hide-outs. A tall white man with a deep Southern drawl, Gavin has a stern presence, gracious manners and intense brooding eyes. At first I mistook him for a preacher, but he’s a retired electronic engineer who writes self-published novels about the rapture and apocalypse. One of them is titled Sal Batree, after the place he wants to show me.
I’m here in Jones County, Mississippi, to breathe in the historical vapors left by Newton Knight, a poor white farmer who led an extraordinary rebellion during the Civil War. With a company of like-minded white men in southeast Mississippi, he did what many Southerners now regard as unthinkable. He waged guerrilla war against the Confederacy and declared loyalty to the Union.
In the spring of 1864, the Knight Company overthrew the Confederate authorities in Jones County and raised the United States flag over the county courthouse in Ellisville. The county was known as the Free State of Jones, and some say it actually seceded from the Confederacy. This little-known, counterintuitive episode in American history has now been brought to the screen in Free State of Jones, directed by Gary Ross (Seabiscuit, The Hunger Games) and starring a grimy, scruffed-up Matthew McConaughey as Newton Knight.
Iamwhomiam » Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:45 pm wrote:Blue, it's a wonderful thing to pay honor to your ancestors, but one must look at their entire history. If your ancestor was a slave-owning traitor to the USA, Lee, who led the army of the confederacy in the deadliest battles in US history, an enemy pledged to secede from and destroy our union, we should not honor such a man more publicly. Very few do not know who Lee was. He was a great general in an enemy army who lost an unjust war and we, as victors, owe the traitor nothing.
Where's London's statue honoring Hitler? I know, an extraordinary example, but really, which nation's erect statues to honor their defeated enemies? How utterly ridiculous to believe we should.
Having public statues on display today, still honoring those who wanted to destroy our union is a dangerous and constant reminder to the generations descended from the original losers that "The South Will Rise Again!"
Why not move such statues to halls of museums, where those who seek to adore them would be able to do so in perpetuity without daily insulting the descendants of those they fought to retain in slavery.
Okay, first off, I think lots of us kids with Southern blood were told that. I don't really believe he's my relation. The point I was trying to make was that many no-name farmers died because they were called to defend their home places. They weren't fighting for slave ownership. They were following Lee to keep the invaders out.
I really don't want to get into a Civil War argument. I have no problem moving statues to museums or wherever.
Why would London have a statue of Hitler, um, ever?
Last edited by Blue on Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
