Closer to Mars

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Re: Closer to Mars

Postby Blue » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:41 am

Iamwhomiam » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:56 pm wrote:
In my book, there's a big difference between billionaire Zuckerberg and billionaire Musk and Musk comes out as far superior in ranking of benefit to humanity. Go after billionaires, but those that only take without offering any public benefit, like so many of today's politicians do, if you feel the need to go after perpetual public teat transgressors.


Exactly. don't feed the trolls


I got a kick out watching the flames of the rockets engines flicker, just like imagined in the old 1950s Buck Rogers serials, and then to watch the side tanks land vertically as Buck's ship sometimes did was really quite amazing, especially being synchronized as they were. Very cool!


Yeah, the first thing I thought of when I saw the dual landing was laughing at those Twilight Zone episodes with rockets landing like that on other worlds or asteroids and it was preposterous!

I believe a small subset of humans control the machinations that enslave most of humanity and wreck the Earth for profit and maybe fun. Or they're lizard people terraforming this place. But I also believe there are some damn smart humans who can and will make space travel a reality. It's good to know a lot of people in the industry admire Roddenberry's basic principles.
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Re: Closer to Mars

Postby DrEvil » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:23 am

Rory » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:45 am wrote:Science.

https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/10/why-not-space/

We are stuck on Earth for good. Cry, accept, rage, affect apathy, whatever. It isn't going to happen. God. I'm so happy you all enjoyed the firework show. That's all it was. And all it will ever be.


All that article says is that it's a really hard problem. Well duh. People also said getting the Falcon Heavy to fly was a really hard problem. Why does it upset you so much that people want to try?
"I only read American. I want my fantasy pure." - Dave
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Re: Closer to Mars

Postby Burnt Hill » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:54 am

Elvis wrote:It just occurred to me—it seems there is life on Mars, and if there is, we should probably stay away.

For the forseeable future, anyway, until there can be some assurance we won't ruin, kill, spoil and pollute life on Mars


Humans will contaminate Mars with life — the question is how to do it right

What planetary protection will look like for a SpaceX colony

By Loren Grush@lorengrush Oct 4, 2016, 2:35pm EDT

If Elon Musk’s Mars colony becomes a reality, he won’t be sending just humans to the Red Planet; he’ll be sending trillions of hitchhiking microbes as well. Such a biological invasion seemingly clashes with a concept known as planetary protection — avoiding the "harmful contamination" of other worlds. Given the likelihood of a human colony to spread microbes, does that put a stop to Musk’s Mars ambitions?

A HUMAN SETTLEMENT ISN’T INCOMPATIBLE WITH PLANETARY PROTECTION

Not exactly. A human settlement isn’t incompatible with planetary protection. In fact, those who came up with the concept did so with future Mars settlements in mind. "It was fully recognized that humans could potentially colonize Mars in the future," Catherine Conley, NASA’s planetary protection officer, tells The Verge.

Right now, planetary protection guidelines of Mars have revolved around robotic missions — the only types of missions to go to the planet. Those policies, developed by the Committee on Space Research (COSPAR), are strict since we’re not done exploring the world and determining whether biological life exists there. Rovers need to be sterilized, and extra precautions need to be taken if spacecraft go to Mars' "special regions" — places where organisms may be able to grow. The goal is to not contaminate the planet with Earth life so that we can study it in its natural state.

The planetary protection guidelines for a Mars colony will differ from the ones that are in place now, Conley explains. Rovers and spacecraft can be (mostly) sterilized; people can’t. The human body alone carries more than 10,000 different types of bacteria. So scientists all over the world will have to discuss what makes sense for a human settlement, says Conley. Those guidelines will likely be focused on ensuring human settlers don’t bring anything with them that can harm the colony — and that they don’t send back anything that could potentially harm Earth.

FINDING LIFE — AND KEEPING US SAFE
The legal basis for planetary protection can be found in the Outer Space Treaty — an international agreement from 1967 that has 104 state parties. Article IX of the treaty calls for nations to explore other worlds "so as to avoid their harmful contamination." That’s because astronomers were interested in looking for alien life. If we contaminate Mars and other planets with Earth’s microbes, it’ll make it a lot harder to know if we’re encountering new life, or just what we brought with us.



United Nations
The signing of the Outer Space Treaty. (UN)

But another major motivation for planetary protection was to protect humans, Conley says. It’s important to explore Mars in its natural state, so we’ll understand the planet’s environment — in case people live there someday. "Understand the environment well enough so you don’t encounter bad surprises," says Conley. The problem is, the existence of life on the Red Planet is still an open question. Data gathered from the Viking landers — two Martian spacecraft equipped with astrobiology experiments — is considered inconclusive. And recent revelations about Mars, such as the presence of flowing liquid water, have raised the possibility that microbes may be able to thrive on the planet’s surface.

"UNDERSTAND THE ENVIRONMENT WELL ENOUGH SO YOU DON’T ENCOUNTER BAD SURPRISES."

"Maybe there was once something living there" Bill Nye, CEO of the Planetary Society, tells The Verge. "So hey people, let’s go have a look before we land with a bunch of humans." Plus, if we settle a colony of people on Mars without fully knowing what’s there, it’s possible people will encounter some lethal Martian pathogen that we have yet to discover. That’s why Conley and Nye argue it’s prudent to learn more about Mars before we start sending humans there.


Images of recurring slope lineae on Mars, where liquid water is thought to exist. (NASA)

Musk said he isn’t too worried about encountering Martian life, since all signs seem to point to the planet being a dead world. "So far, we’re really not seeing any sign of surface life on Mars. There’s really nothing on the surface of Mars," he argued at a press conference after his speech last week. However, SpaceX has said before that planetary protection is an important subject for the company. "SpaceX takes planetary protection very seriously," Dex Torricke-Barton, the company’s head of communications, said in a statement to The Washington Post. "We are working with NASA to develop and implement stringent procedures. These will first be used for our Red Dragon missions, beginning in 2018."


But in the same statement, Torricke-Barton hinted that nothing should slow us down from sending people to Mars. "If we care about preserving life, we should take steps to safeguard not only microbial life that might exist but also human life that certainly does — and is ready to reach for a new world."

PLANETARY PROTECTION FOR A MARS COLONY
So what would planetary protection look like for a human Mars colony? The guidelines will be a bit like brushing your teeth, says Conley. "You can’t keep your mouth totally sterile after eating a candy bar. Brushing reduces bacteria but doesn’t get rid of them," she says. "So we will not be able to keep everything pristinely clean; we’ll allow greater contamination with the expectation of greater benefit."

THE GUIDELINES WILL BE A BIT LIKE BRUSHING YOUR TEETH

The main focus will be limiting the transfer of harmful pathogens to the Martian surface. For instance, if Mars does turn out to be hospitable to Earth microbes, colonists don’t want to bring any harmful organisms over that could survive and cause people grief later on. Deadly bacteria like anthrax or tetanus may actually be able to survive in the Martian soil. "You don’t want to park human pathogens in a place where later on someone’s going to blunder into them," John Rummel, an astrobiologist at East Carolina University and NASA’s former planetary protection officer, tells The Verge. "It would be an uncomfortable discovery that we’ve actually introduced things on Mars when we could have avoided it." COSPAR suggests that future human settlers should still be restricted from contaminating Mars' "special regions" and that robots should survey unexplored Martian sites before people go there.


An artistic rendering of SpaceX's Mars spaceship. (SpaceX)

There will also be guidelines about what colonists bring back with them to Earth. That’s because planetary protection doesn’t just cover the harmful contamination of other worlds in our Solar System. It also entails protecting the Earth from any hazardous material that could be lurking on other worlds. And since Musk indicated that his vehicles would return from Mars and potentially bring people home, guidelines will need to be put in place to ensure no toxic Martian microbes make the return trips as well.


It will take a lot of discussion — among the US government agencies and the nations of the Outer Space Treaty — to figure out what these guidelines should be, says Conley. But something similar happened with the Apollo missions in the 1960s. When those launches happened, the science community wasn’t sure if the Moon had any hazardous material, so restrictions were put in place as to what the astronauts could bring to the Moon and what they could bring back.

"IF THE US DOES NOT ENGAGE IN INTERNATIONAL CONSULTATION, IT COULD BE HELD LIABLE UNDER INTERNATIONAL COURT."

"The same kinds of discussions need to happen again," says Conley. In fact, the US could be in trouble if it doesn’t consult with its international partners about the proper planetary protection guidelines for a Martian colony. "If the US does not engage in international consultation, it could be held liable under international court," says Conley.

SpaceX though is a private company, and currently the US doesn’t have any legal framework to make sure the company adheres to the Outer Space Treaty. Spaceflight company Moon Express encountered this regulatory conundrum when it sought approval for the launch of its lunar lander. The company had to come up with its own "regulatory patch," giving the US government enough comfort that its lunar mission would adhere to the treaty.

Fortunately, lawmakers are working on frameworks that would allow the federal government to oversee private missions beyond lower Earth orbit. Congressman Jim Bridenstine (R-OK), for instance, has come up with a bill called the American Space Renaissance Act, which would give the Federal Aviation Administration the authority to issue guidelines for private missions to other worlds. Once a regulatory solution is put in place, SpaceX will be in a better position to make its Mars colony a reality. And then, many consultations about planetary protection could be in the company’s future.

"It’s so important to have discussions and come to a consensus before we do something we can’t take back," says Conley. "If we contaminate Mars, then we can’t stop that."

https://www.theverge.com/2016/10/4/13113626/elon-musk-mars-colony-spacex-human-life
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Re: Closer to Mars

Postby Elvis » Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:02 pm

Burnt Hill wrote:Humans will contaminate Mars with life — the question is how to do it right



Good to know they're thinking about it. Thanks!
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Re: Closer to Mars

Postby Burnt Hill » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:07 pm

BenDhyan » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:02 am wrote:It is on the way to the Asteroid Belt apparently....

Musk's Tesla has a new orbit, and its headed for the asteroid belt


Thats fine with me. I would be eternally irritated with that thing circling overhead.
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Re: Closer to Mars

Postby seemslikeadream » Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:36 pm

damn you Wright Brothers.....bicycles are meant to stay ON THE GROUND...Rory Rules!

and no electric bikes...that's cheating


Image

btw

I love my Solex electric bike from ....FRANCE! Take that for innovation Rory and I make no excuses

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Mazars and Deutsche Bank could have ended this nightmare before it started.
They could still get him out of office.
But instead, they want mass death.
Don’t forget that.
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Re: Closer to Mars

Postby Rory » Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:59 pm

Yup. We're going to mars fueled by the power of snark and wishful thinking
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Re: Closer to Mars

Postby Iamwhomiam » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:04 pm

Thanks for posting the 'Tesla takes a Detour' article, Ben. I hadn't known that. Imagine that, History repeating itself! First car in space; first car-wreck in space. Two more "Firsts" for Musk to add to his list of accomplishments!

I got a kick out of Musk's hat-tip to Hitchhikers Guide displayed on the dash monitor:
"DON"T PANIC"

I sure prefer his style when over that of a Mercer's or a Koch's, vainglorious as it is.

Blue, I dunno about those lizards terraforming earth, but I once posed that very scenario on these pages. But the lizard thing, while possible, seems to me improbable. I do agree with you that we will continue improving our technologies to a point whereby safe travel in space becomes realized. If we don't self-annihilate beforehand.

But presently, the effects space travel has upon the human body makes me believe that day is very far-off. Conventionally, that is. I believe we have had zero emissions space travel for more than a few years now. Because of it being top secret, we cannot learn the effects of space travel upon those who travel into space in these gravity-bending craft that operate silently. Perhaps the remedy has already been found - or the negative effects nullified. Primarily, two would be bone density loss and radiation.

Colonizing Mars:
Burnt Hill wrote:Humans will contaminate Mars with life — the question is how to do it right


There is no right way. Others might be inclined to prevent such an establishment by present day humans, given the abhorrent history of our interracial and international relations with those we've plagued with our presence and those we've exterminated.

Supposedly, alien abductees claim their memories have been altered. Could an alien implant into one human colonizer's mind madness enough to kill his mates?

No, we're not gonna be allowed to play on the planets until we learn to get along with each other right here at home and not until a long time after that, just to be sure.

I'm with you on the banning of fireworks, Rory. To hell with those hundreds of thousands Chinese peasants who risk their lives daily making fireworks to bring you your local 4th of July fireworks show! They'll survive. And those that don't, well, it is a dog eat dog world, after all.

Good for you, slad! Very cool ride!
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Re: Closer to Mars

Postby Elvis » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:26 pm

I got an idea... we stay on Earth... and send TRUMP to Mars!


:bigsmile :scaredhide:
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Re: Closer to Mars

Postby Iamwhomiam » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:28 pm

I'd donate $!00 to help start the ship sailing!

Could we divert his flight toward the asteroid belt too?
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Re: Closer to Mars

Postby Elvis » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:22 pm

Iamwhomiam » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:28 pm wrote:Could we divert his flight toward the asteroid belt too?


:rofl:
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Re: Closer to Mars

Postby Belligerent Savant » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:25 pm

.

I can appreciate the giddy enthusiasm.

The 'don't panic' nod is a deft marketing touch, pandering to the nerd demographic. And sending his car to space! The showmanship is applause-worthy.

It's good to give humans something to dream about in this dreary era.

Alas, that's all it'll ever be: a dream.
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Re: Closer to Mars

Postby dada » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:02 am

Belligerent Savant wrote:
Alas, that's all it'll ever be: a dream.


I missed the showmanship. Didn't read any articles about this, just the op in this thread. Didn't watch any video of it. All this cars in space, guide references, and musk talk means nothing to me.

I'm always enthusiastic about space travel, though. And I think we'll colonize space. Not anytime soon, by current attention-deficient standards.

But soon is relative. It's a matter of thinking in greater time-scales. We'll make it, as long as we don't all kill each other first. In my opinion.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: Closer to Mars

Postby 82_28 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:26 am

Musk is being nailed with a fusillade of dumbasses. Who really gives a fuck about how humanity gets to "space"? It has to be done somehow. Thus it has been done. Sure. Fucking fail at it and then have a fascist authority declare it to be impossible and to be never tried again.

Well. . .

You can't just build some rocket on an ever visually observed surface of a planet and launch it on the hush hush. First of all. One thing I have arrived at is that Musk has shown the ability, by himself (and I lament that he probably doesn't do shit other than have a phenomenal team) suddenly say people will begin settling on Mars in the mid 2020s. Not just to visit. They will settle there. Notwithstanding, the dystopia of such a notion, Earth is ripe just for fiction alone the very first book about going to Mars for real. Nothing imagined. While we may bitch and shit about this billionaire Musk, he is simply the vessel, as far as we know that is decimating the NASA playbook of timetables. He fucking says he can do it. Jesus. Let him. Let him create a weird cult on Mars that worships the orbiting Starman who rose to heaven on 2/7/2018. Let it happen. Nobody loses here.

As long as we keep our "rigorous intuition" about us, this is a fantastic development and is clearly not impossible. This is not run by idiots and may well "redefine" humanity soon. It's taken the existence of donald dump one year to define an entire country with as of now is a fucking military parade in DC. While "some dude" with enough money says "we're going to Mars". Umm.

How many motherfuckers as of now are not still but newly debating the fact that they think Earth is flat? The government and the sad state of science education is clearly "undergunned" to inoculate against this pseudoscience. Let Musk do what he did.

Everything about this launch made sense. I hope its success is able to build interest in rationality with a view to "who the fuck knows". There is nothing more fascinating of how things work than putting it to the "test". Also, those who say "fuck no, we will never travel to the planets" with a "sorry to break it to you". Are fucking idiots. It is not a matter of how much I believe this is possible but is in retrograde success to you lack of ideals and fascination. You do not want to do anything other than playing ball with that which controls you. Perhaps you would like to have your congresswoman wife shot in the head while you yourself are orbiting Earth.

For science.

Space travel has everything to do with the human condition.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: Closer to Mars

Postby BenDhyan » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:41 am

Here are some links on Mars colonization, it is not so far away in time, human landings in the 2030s. The most likely event to ruin it all is a nuclear war imho, but which is more likely to happen first I do not know....

How Do We Colonize Mars?

Colonization of Mars

Human Mars
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