Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Moderators: DrVolin, 82_28, Elvis, Jeff

Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby dada » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:13 pm

peartreed wrote:What others find as intrusive and extensive “copypasta” interrupting discussion, I find to be a very convenient, consolidated and current collection of relevant, in-depth, ongoing news from a variety of sources I’d otherwise likely not connect to. The topical discussion those posts instigate here is often of a higher quality too.

I don’t understand why those less interested, indifferent, or resentful of that volume, don’t simply bypass it, ignore it or start their own threads of topics more appealing.

If the few dissenters persuade the mods to impose an arbitrary limit on copied articles in such postings frequency or volume, content censorship or any time restrictions on copied content continuity of coverage as it develops in the news, then I’m going to find a more open and permissive place to pursue my interests.

Reverting the format of the forum back to its origins without pictures or technical editing tricks would be another regressive step into a restrictive past practice. I joined up here with my fellow countryman Jeff Wells to keep up with the times, but the negativity of the naysayers and second-guessers and, in some cases, RI reformers got to him too.


But the info could be delivered by posting a link and a quote. Not a whole article taken from somewhere else.

But it doesn't really matter. We've done this argument on this board before, and nothing comes of it. There is no compromise, clearly. No attempt to 'meet your fellow boardmembers halfway.' Not even an attempt to understand what they're communicating. In fact, it seems to me to be a clear refusal to understand. So the 'five post' limit will have to suffice for now. And the mods came up with that themselves, by the way. It wasn't a few persuading dissenters.

ok, said my piece. 82 and srp, Good Luck! ha

edited to add: Oh yeah, I was wondering if you have confirmation on that Jeff stuff, peartreed, or was that speculation? I mean, was it because of the negativity of naysayers, second-guessers and reformers that Jeff stopped posting here. I know that I've stopped posting at times, sometimes for years. It wasn't because of negativity or frustration, I just got into something else.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
User avatar
dada
 
Posts: 1646
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:08 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby vondardanelle » Sat Mar 10, 2018 7:34 pm

minor comment from lurker who really appreciates everyone here. what about a more edited approach from posters? for instance, if you want to copy and paste several articles into a thread, maybe, similar to what dada suggested, you paste the headline and first few sentences or first paragraph with a link to the article? And then, because links obviously disappear, you paste it all into a corresponding thread in the data dump. a sort of "appendix" or "reference" thread. It would make things more concise, fewer images would mean thread load quick if you're viewing on a phone, etc... it would also nicely index and organize the "discussion" component and the "data" component of threads which could be very helpful when you/someone wanted to revisit a topic later in time.
vondardanelle
 
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:46 am
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby Cordelia » Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:12 pm

Belligerent Savant » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:29 pm wrote:.

Also: we won't know until we [b]allow it to live and breathe for a bit, right?
Let's place it on a 3 or 6 month probationary period, perhaps, and see how it plays out (as a suggestion).

I'd imagine the mods will tweak as (or if) needed at the conclusion of said probation.


Good points; if a new rule doesn't work, it need not be cast in stone and gives the new mods time & flexibility to make adjustments.
"We may not choose the parameters of our destiny. But we give it its content." Dag Hammarskjold ~ 'Waymarks'
User avatar
Cordelia
 
Posts: 3172
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: USA
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby American Dream » Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:37 pm

t seems to me that the friend or foe setting would significantly reduce many problems- most especially as more articles are excerpted and linked to the original.
American Dream
 
Posts: 19708
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: Planet Earth
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby Elvis » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:56 pm

Division into "friends and foes" is the antithesis of this thread, it defeats collaborative discussion and solves nothing in terms of better understanding.

It seems to me that hiding behind a fortress wall of megathreads directed at (mostly phantom) board "enemies" only perpetuates division. No one learns, grows or sees beyond their personal bubble. That's why I've always called for honest and rational discourse.


In the past I've "ignored" a couple of posters for brief periods, but it never lasted long.
"Frankly, I don't think it's a good idea but the sums proposed are enormous."
User avatar
Elvis
 
Posts: 5683
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:24 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby minime » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:59 pm

If only people would see their personal bubble.
Rigorous intuition is radically inclusive.
User avatar
minime
 
Posts: 982
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:01 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby Burnt Hill » Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:28 pm

Elvis wrote:In the past I've "ignored" a couple of posters for brief periods, but it never lasted long.


That statement also goes toward the effectiveness of the ignore switch.
And srp has promoted the use of the ! button.
The option of Friend or Foe exists for those so inclined to use.
I think we do a relatively good job of self moderation here,
of course we all have our complaints of others!

I think just having a couple of active moderators on the streets,
reminding us of the boundaries already in place should help a ton.

I also think we are lucky to have srp and 82 as moderators.
I believe they both have a great sense of responsibility to the task,
and the wisdom to perform in a positive manner.
User avatar
Burnt Hill
 
Posts: 2584
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:42 pm
Location: down down
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby 82_28 » Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:32 am

Since I am a "moderator" all that means is shit has to get really bad for me to feel some notion I must spring into action. I didn't see any sign of that before this out of the blue "nomination" and don't see it now. When it does happen, I guess I am one of the people that has to somehow put a stop to something somehow. I never quite thought such a thing would be difficult, but I do "know" most of the regulars and I think we all know each of our "styles" and interests. Thus, I see no reason to manage anything as it runs on its own just as well we live our own lives outside of this sounding board.

I for one, see both sides of the arguments for and against the methods used by some and not by others and vice versa. I see absolutely no ill intent by anyone. I see moodiness and impatience with how some choose to impart, share, copy/paste information, thoughts, feelings, fears and secrets from all including me. What is paramount is that everyone uses this place as a safe medium to describe what is on their mind and hopefully discern that however way it unfolds it was done in the best of faith. For those who are being singled out, I guess, I won't stand for. As in real life, I do not like seeing anyone ever being singled out and ganged up on. So, in my experience here, both SLAD and AD get a pass first and foremost as they have stuck to their methods all of these years with many people disliking them but have broken no "rules". The same happened to Hugh Manatee Wins. Now many here lament his loss. Stephen Morgan is another that comes to mind. Morgan could be grating, but I liked chatting with him about Linux questions.

We all bring a shit ton to the table and nobody will completely fit with what we think is perfect. These new suggestions I think work, they are not my idea but I have to agree they make sense. I personally won't be a stickler over anything as they seem to be nothing more than a nudge to make things "more pleasant" for everyone. I believe everything and everyone has a reason.
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
User avatar
82_28
 
Posts: 11027
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:34 am
Location: North of Queen Anne
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby Heaven Swan » Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:03 am

Wow. Thanks 82_28 and Still Robert Paulson for accepting the nominations.

Best news I’ve heard in a while. I’ve really enjoyed both of your positive energy and fair-mindedness and can’t think of two better candidates to be moderators. And infinite thanks to Wombaticus Rex for serving for so long, and solo at that! You no doubt prevented this place from spinning out and crashing and burning and I’ve always enjoyed your perspectives and creativity too.

As to the new rules (they’ve already been instituted?), can we add (or maybe it’s already there) a sunset clause after three months? At the 3 month mark (the end of May) we could discuss the results, see how we liked it with these rules in place and either vote to keep them or to try something else.

I’d really hate to lose Peartreed, as he’s another poster I always enjoy, and I hope he sticks around. I don’t think this rule will block the two prolific posters from doing what they do, it will just temper the tendency towards thread monologues.

I am in a similar position to Peartreed as I often come here in a rush to get curated news that’s difficult to find elsewhere, and SLAD’s threads are my go-to. If we are getting something from the threads we can always make more of an effort to post in them. I don’t always feel like I have something well-thought out to say about the latest Trump fiasco or other topics that I haven’t had time to thoroughly research. On the other hand I have found that even a two-line reaction comment or attempt at humor does add something worthwhile to the discussion and could do that more often.

Another possibility might be to have “Research Threads” on the GD board where certain posters who have the inclination and time delve into specific topics in depth. If the thread is marked as a research thread then those using phones to read could easily avoid them if they aren’t interested. That might be a solution for AD’s dilemma.

Although I don’t normally read his threads, I do sometimes take a look and have found some real gems of info in them (like a review for the book “Race Traitor” by Elisa Hategan which I doubt I would have found otherwise) and I do support his work on tracking far-right political activity. Right now it seems that he’s gaming the board system by continually bumping his own threads. Many here (me included) seem to find his general attitude annoying but I would hate to lose access to his information gathering because of it.

Someone suggested he start his own blog. What if he did and RI gave him an honorary Sticky thread where he posts titles and opening paragraphs to his latest findings with links? What do you think AD? He could still participate in the other threads in a conversational, discussion-oriented way but wouldn’t be deluging the board with his ongoing research projects.
"Bow to your oppressor and you will be destroyed. Dare to fight and you will liberate the world."
User avatar
Heaven Swan
 
Posts: 603
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:22 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby seemslikeadream » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:18 am

Who Poisoned Alexander Litvinenko? Radioactive thallium link
Post by seemslikeadream » Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:49 am
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9355

I am using this thread as an example ......it was started 11 1/2 years ago by me and I was thanked by Jeff immediately. Jeff invited me here when he started RI....at the time he knew exactly how I posted, he was very familiar with my style and that has not changed in 15 years. NO one is 11 years EVER complained about this thread. if the new rules were in place this thread would be moved to the Data Dump now. NO one ever in 11 years ever suggested I start my own blog about it. Read that thread....it embodies what RI used to be (I hear so much about what RI used to be) I was invited to this place to do what I do by Jeff. I do not believe this is fair to change the rules now that just effect me and AD. Hopefully the new rules will be tweaked or I will be forced to stop posting in it so it will not be moved. How the Litvinenko thread is stopping anyone from starting a new OP about anything their little hearts desire is beyond me maybe they can explain that to everyone here, there is no limit to OPs in GD. The ones complaining about what is posted here for some reason refuse to start an OP to discuss what they want to talk about...... they will only continue to complain about what they do not want to talk about...start a thread on how to talk about what they do not want to talk about and I am supposed to be the one punished for that? The author of this OP has repeatedly posted personal attacks against me and now he wants to school me on the art of Collaborative Discussion ....where was that art when he was hurling personal insults? I have been told "No one cares about what you post".......that is not true I have been told I am the one personally responsible for everyone leaving here.....that is not true in fact I would venture a guess it is the relentless bullying that has driven people away and I have been told that by members who have left........I think I will take advice elsewhere thank you Mr. Artful Collaborator... you couldn't bully me off this board so now you are taking another approach......a kinder gentler insinuating that I am the one needing schooling on how to talk with you when you have never had any intention of artfully discussing anything with me....ever.

I have been adding to existing OPs with new information for 15 years instead of starting a new OP about the same subject I always thought that was a good thing....not flooding this place with new OPs on the same subject was the right thing to do or so I thought, keeping a history of a subject in one thread. So if the idea is to free up some kind of illusive OP space by moving my threads so that others can start threads about want they want to talk about ......please go for it...but my threads will not be moved I will stop posting in my OPs/let them fall instead and give you all the space you need (that space has been available to you all along but be that as it may)........I am waiting patiently/looking forward to reading all the new OPs by Rory, BS and 0_0 and their artful discussions ......can I have an expiration date on that invite? Going back 5 pages there is one OP started by BS, none by Rory, none by 0_0.

Now's the time boys let the Au Fait Dilerations begin! No time like the present


Let the sympathizing commence! :yay

if I may borrow a phrase from BS...nothing like being compared to the IRA ....should I take that as a personal insult? :)

even in this so called artful thread the insults continue.... that's how we are to move forward? :roll:

Belligerent Savant » Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:21 am wrote:
We disagree, and that's just fine; under the above proposal, you can continue as you do in the Data Dump -- your sympathizers will follow you there (as will SLAD's sympathizers, along with any thread by any member with more than 5 consecutive copypasta contributions).
.


my friends are sympathizers? ....Is that how you would describe your comrades :P ? I think not.
"THIS IS THE END OF MY PRESIDENCY. I'M F***ED"
- trump May 17, 2017


"Dotard is a 'Bulger' Rat

Why we do think that Mr. Trump owes a debt to Mr. Putin? Here are fifty reasons
User avatar
seemslikeadream
 
Posts: 30329
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:28 pm
Location: into the black
Blog: View Blog (83)

Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby Heaven Swan » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:32 am

I see your point SLAD about the above mentioned thread and others like it. I haven’t had much time to read it but I’m glad it exists and to know that I can consult it when needed.

What if we changed the name of the Data Dump to “In depth research” or something like it that’s more catchy? Data Dump implies boring, statistic-heavy trash. Is it so terrible to have research threads in one place and collaborative discussion threads in another?

Trying to be solution oriented here...
"Bow to your oppressor and you will be destroyed. Dare to fight and you will liberate the world."
User avatar
Heaven Swan
 
Posts: 603
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:22 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby seemslikeadream » Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:44 am

yes I agree I would like to see some kind of compromise.......I'm just not sure at this point what it is....changing long standing norms here and moving threads to the Data Dump does not seem like the answer ....like I said I will just stop posting in them so they are not moved.....I guess I could post new information about them in a new OP and link back to the original thread but does that solve a problem or add to it? I understand what SRP wants to do ...I just do not have any reasonable solutions at this time other than stop posting in those threads which I am will to do if it comes to that......and I will do that for awhile and see if it makes a difference in how many new OPs are started...... by whom...and how they are discussed...it's up to them now.... that's my compromise I guess. I will put all news info into the Data Dump for 2 months and see how it goes....if we had a Latest Breaking News section I could put it there

Is that a possibility ...a new forum LBN? I don't know but I would gladly support that and post in it extensively and stay out of GD for the most part


btw there are more people lurking here this morning than there has been in weeks

In total there are 128 users online :: 4 registered, 4 hidden and 120 guests
"THIS IS THE END OF MY PRESIDENCY. I'M F***ED"
- trump May 17, 2017


"Dotard is a 'Bulger' Rat

Why we do think that Mr. Trump owes a debt to Mr. Putin? Here are fifty reasons
User avatar
seemslikeadream
 
Posts: 30329
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:28 pm
Location: into the black
Blog: View Blog (83)

Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby minime » Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:11 am

Heaven Swan » Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:32 am wrote:I see your point SLAD about the above mentioned thread and others like it. I haven’t had much time to read it but I’m glad it exists and to know that I can consult it when needed.

What if we changed the name of the Data Dump to “In depth research” or something like it that’s more catchy? Data Dump implies boring, statistic-heavy trash. Is it so terrible to have research threads in one place and collaborative discussion threads in another?

Trying to be solution oriented here...


I had the same idea, not as a serious recommendation, but as a way of suggesting that this more than anything is a problem of perception.

If the format of RI has 'always' been this way, and at one time was hallowed ground--a veritable legendary Internet Mecca--how can the format be the problem.

Is there really so much traffic here that it has to be redirected so we can make sense of it?

I love Sunday mornings...
Rigorous intuition is radically inclusive.
User avatar
minime
 
Posts: 982
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:01 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby Heaven Swan » Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:28 am

I really do think that renaming Data Dump to “In-depth Investigative Research” would go a long way in turning a dumping ground into an attractive destination. Add “Cutting Edge” as in “Cutting Edge Investigative Research” and it may become more popular than GD. :P

Is there a way to vote on these things then approach Jeff with the proposed changes?

I would also support a zero-tolerance policy on bullying. Personal attack diatribes have been what soured me from posting more often. I don’t think you can allow heavy-handed personal attacks and encourage collaborative discussion at the same time.
"Bow to your oppressor and you will be destroyed. Dare to fight and you will liberate the world."
User avatar
Heaven Swan
 
Posts: 603
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:22 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

Re: Rhetoric and the art of Collaborative Discussion

Postby minime » Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:35 am

Heaven Swan » Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:28 am wrote:I really do think that renaming Data Dump to “In-depth Investigative Research” would go a long way in turning a dumping ground into an attractive destination. Add “Cutting Edge” as in “Cutting Edge Investigative Research” and it may become more popular than GD. :P

Is there a way to vote on these things then approach Jeff with the proposed changes?

I would also support a zero-tolerance policy on bullying. Personal attack diatribes have been what soured me from posting more often. I don’t think you can allow heavy-handed personal attacks and encourage collaborative discussion at the same time.


Couldn't hurt...
Rigorous intuition is radically inclusive.
User avatar
minime
 
Posts: 982
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:01 pm
Blog: View Blog (0)

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Marionumber1 and 13 guests