William Dudley Pelley, International Fascism & Sirius

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Re: William Dudley Pelley, International Fascism & Sirius

Postby American Dream » Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:05 pm

Notice that R.A.W.'s analysis of the State and drugs is notably lacking in any mention of the spooky side of the Bay Area psychedelic scene, even well after the publication of Acid Dreams. Starts with a nice photo of Bob at Esalen:

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https://www.scribd.com/document/2723956 ... rview-1991





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Re: William Dudley Pelley, International Fascism & Sirius

Postby Agent Orange Cooper » Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:14 pm

Wombaticus Rex » Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:03 pm wrote:
Agent Orange Cooper » Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:55 pm wrote:Listened to much McKenna before?


I've been respectful to you, bud, c'mon now.


It was an honest question.
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Re: William Dudley Pelley, International Fascism & Sirius

Postby American Dream » Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:17 pm

Take with as many grains of salt as you feel comfortable with:


Esalen veteran and Leary's "CIA babysitter": Illuminatus! author Robert Anton Wilson
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Re: William Dudley Pelley, International Fascism & Sirius

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:38 pm

Agent Orange Cooper » Fri Aug 31, 2018 2:14 pm wrote:It was an honest question.


In which case, yes, days and days worth, repeatedly, for years. I grew up on these motherfuckers - Bucky, Leary, Watts, Ginsburg, Burroughs, Kerouac, and even that dolphin-toucher Lilly. And frankly, finding out any or all of them worked for the CIA wouldn't change my estimation or esteem very much.

It just didn't seem like an honest question to me at the time when you're saying stuff like

Agent Orange Cooper » Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:55 pm wrote:Only someone unfamiliar with his rap, and bringing an overly literal/absolutist mindset, plus a paranoia level only possible in the post-9/11 world would believe nonsense like what Irvin suggests - that he's secretly/openly outing himself as a CIA agent. Now *that's* funny.


Or telling me "oh well I guess that proves it" when I'm merely saying "Nah, that's still weird to me." Because it is. I'm not an Irving acolyte -- he's not a serious person. Whether it is mental illness or merely being Scottish, I can't tell from here, but the man is clearly toxic.

And look, I didn't bring up McKenna's looming drug smuggling problems with the FBI -- he did. It's still weird to me.

I very much agree with what Dennis says here:

It looks like pathology to me, and a lot of people see that. But then Jan will say, well, you won't go through these 20 databases that I've sent you and these 200 links. And you've got to understand, no Jan I won't


Having dealt with Jan Irving fans, they're exactly like that. Fanbases are always like that. For instance:

Agent Orange Cooper » Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:55 pm wrote:Context doesn't just mean the preceding 4 minutes of conversation - it's an entire career of writing and speaking being referenced. Because he had at this point spent like 15 years talking publicly about the DMT elves and Mushroom entity as being his guiding agency.


Or maybe it's just a curious anecdote from a tired man at the end of a long weekend.

And look, the notion that, per Dennis again -- "I mean, yeah, Terence talked at Esalen and Aldous Huxley talked at Esalen that doesn't mean that Esalen is involved in some plot for world domination" -- that's the kind of dumbass shit only a Jan Irving would believe. How in the fuck is a bunch of hippies making questionable decisions in city parks going to lead to world domination? It's not! Ever. The point of 99% of these conspiracies we discuss is not world domination -- it's just intelligence work.

Subcultures and countercultures need to be monitored and controlled. Such is the purview of the intelligence agency.
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Re: William Dudley Pelley, International Fascism & Sirius

Postby Agent Orange Cooper » Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:49 pm

I agree with all that. I just don't think T-Mac was a witting super secret agent for the CIA hypnotizing fools while reporting to Langley for debriefs.

Not saying you do - but lots of people do. And I highly doubt they've read The Invisible Landscape. He was a hell of a lot more than a Tim Leary Redux.
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Re: William Dudley Pelley, International Fascism & Sirius

Postby dada » Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:11 pm

Nice picture of Bob. Brooklyn, yo. Local boy makes good.

So Bob is part of the problem. But I don't think he ever tried to lead anyone astray about that, he'd be the first to tell you. 'If you see the buddha in the road...' you know what to do.

Was he working for the man, though? Was he the man, himself? Grand poobah of the Esalen hot tub cabal.

We may never know. Unless we use non-locality techniques and psi, of course. Better not use those, though. Men in black can see you when you do that, like you put on the one ring. Flock around like mothmen to a flame. Might get shot with a valis beam. What? You're not worried about the sinister forces? How could you say that! You must be one of them!

And what about all that stuff Bob got wrong between the cosmic triggers. The quest for immortality, for me, is revealing. I tend to think the immortality-questers have missed something essential when I read their rants about it. Although maybe that is part of the big plot of disinfo. Maybe just an exercise that deep thinkers do sometimes. Maybe just entertainment.

Space colony theories went on the back burner, that's understandable. We all underestimate Bucky's Grunch. And the stuff about contact with alien intelligence reminds me of Dr. Lilly in his heaviest ketamine days. Bob still reeling from the hit he took from the valis beam. When the haze wore off, he probably decided to edit that stuff out. Mildly embarrassing when you look back at what you wrote after a run of particularly heavy trips.

But we'll never know. Unless we try the dangerous, evil methods. I'm digging my 1930s Fuld electronic ouija board out of the closet. Me and Bob will write cosmic trigger 3. I think it'll be interesting to see how things look different, now.

edited to add: This: "Subcultures and countercultures need to be monitored and controlled."

And there are many ways this is accomplished. info/disinfo/counter-disinfo, and throwing money at the problem being just a few examples. But the best one is to make shining lights into superstars. Blow them up, bigger than life.

edited again to add: I just want to say, when I made my comment about how I've never familiarized myself with Terrence's work because my angels guided me in other directions, I didn't mean to suggest that I'm suspicious of him. Because I'm simply not familiar with the situation. I really don't know why he doesn't interest me.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: William Dudley Pelley, International Fascism & Sirius

Postby American Dream » Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:56 pm

Ordinary people may not be so interested in developing esoteric technologies for life extension in these the waning days of Babylon, neither expensive space colonization systems. Filthy rich people certainly are, however. After all, they are the only ones who will be able to afford it.

J'accuse, Wernher Von Braun! And those space bunnies Carol Rosin and Johanna Harcourt-Smith!



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BNDD agents Don Strange (right)
and Howard Safir (left) arrest Leary
(1972)
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Re: William Dudley Pelley, International Fascism & Sirius

Postby dada » Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:19 pm

You know why Tim is laughing there, right? Because he sees himself in the photo being taken. Witnessing the witnessed through the eyes of the witness.

Life extension is different than immortality. And there are already many techniques available for life extension that have been around since like, forever, that aren't available to the filthy rich. They just want to have their cake and eat it, too.

But Rockefeller changing hearts every few years, Keith Richards blood transfusions are not life extension. That's living-dead extension. Living, that's something else.

They're just confused vampires, anyway. It's like Dracula said; 'To be dead, to be really dead, that would be glorious.' That's a vampire who isn't confused.

At this point, space colonization is for suckers and fools, as far as I'm concerned. Like Burroughs said, it's like building aquariums for humans and lugging them into space with us. Who wants to live up there like that? It's like the underground bunker cities. No one really wants to live down there. And never mind the claustrophobic conditions, who will do the laundry and wipe your flthy rich ass? Robots? And who will maintenance the robots, genius. You're going to trust that to laborers? Like handing your assassin a shiny new weapon.

So I think life extension and space colonies are rackets, schemes that scientists cook up to trick filthy rich suckers.

Getting back to Bob for a second, since his big mug is at the top of the page. My favorite of his is The Walls Came Tumbling Down. David Bohm in a toga, what's not to like. But it isn't really the content, it's the style that makes it a stand-out for me. I like screenplay style, my favorite way to read. Not bogged down with all the trappings of other styles. I find the speed of screenplay style makes the pictures in the head sharper and clearer.

And that reminds me, I'm reading Burroughs' bladerunner. Health care industry dystopia. Not like our present health care industry dystopia, though, a very different health care industry dystopia. But again, it isn't the content that grabs me as much as the style. This isn't a screenplay. But it's still a film script. Very different take on the style. Still has the speed and the sharp pictures, but does it in a different way.

What does this have to do with International Fascism and Sirius, though. Sirius, Alpha Canis Majoris. Brightest star in Canis Major, 8.6 light years away. Fairly close. Consider Canopus, the second brightest star when looking from Earth, at 310 light years away. Canopus is second brightest because it is so far away. It actually has the highest luminosity - intrinsic brightness - of any star within roughly 700 light years from Earth. Canopus is nine hundred times more luminous than Sirius.

Canopus is the star the planet Arrakis, or Dune, or Rakis orbits in Frank Herbert's series. I know people say we're living in Phil K Dick's world, but I have to disagree. This is Frank Herbert's world we're living in. Most people have no idea what that even means. Knowing the types of people who are into Dune - movers and shakers in all sorts of high places - I think it's probably a good idea to know what it means.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: William Dudley Pelley, International Fascism & Sirius

Postby American Dream » Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:24 pm

Space migration is so 1970's. New Zealand is more where it's at these days. Acid can be obtained but Ayahuasca is more happening. Life extension does not involve freezing heads.

I think Tim Leary and Alan Ginsberg had messiah complexes. That must be a big part of why they formed the Society of the White Hand. They believed. Somehow Tim was able to reconcile this with getting support from "Liberal CIA". I guess if you're a savior, anything goes.

Ram Dass was probably freaked out by it all, feeling that the hammer could come down at any time. I don't blame him for running to India. He went from passing the syringe around in a circle in Owsley's place, shooting up pure crystalline LSD, all the way to the wandering sadhu life and it was an understandable choice.

Those days of Michael Aquino escorting acidheads into the Space Command in Colorado, fueling their desire for space travel, seem like ancient history by now.

The alchemy they practiced back then was kinda cool though:


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Re: William Dudley Pelley, International Fascism & Sirius

Postby dada » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:05 pm

James Marshall Hendrix, International Fascism & Sirius.

Just felt like typing that, no reason. Felt good. Jimi jogged my hand, blame him.

eh. Let them have their drugs. What's it to me?

Messiah complexes seems too simple an analysis to me. This is Tim we're talking about. His agenda probably changed as often as Pomerantsev's Moscow. You know the quote, "Moscow can feel like an oligarchy in the morning and a democracy in the afternoon, a monarchy for dinner and a totalitarian state by bedtime."

Not saying Tim was any of those things, just that his agenda was more complex than a simple messiah one. And Ginsberg, I have to say no. Ginsberg was a poet. I don't know about you, but for me that explains everything there is to explain about Ginsberg.

Space migration, intelligence increase, life extension. I still maintain that space migration and life extension were always just marketing. Scientist scam artistry. The real message for those who were paying attention was always in the middle. Intelligence Increase. The 'I's in the smile. Reminds me of Nolan Bushnell's Brain Rush:

"Traditional learning is often passive, but our games keep you focused because they force you to act, and then react, based on the response you receive. Learning by doing is more fun, more engaging, and a lot more effective. Every time you act, our games learn a little about what you know, and then adapt to match your skill. This keeps you in that sweet spot – not too easy and not too hard – where learning is optimized. When you are engaged in that learning sweet spot, you'll quickly find yourself in a state of flow. Side effects may include losing track of time, exclamations of "Eureka!", and a profound sense of accomplishment. Making sure you master what you're doing before you move on is a key principle behind our games. Our algorithms reintroduce material until you reach 100% mastery, and trust us, you'll be there before you know it."

http://www.brainrush.com/approach

New Zealand in the context of this thread reminds me of my favorite Aldous Huxley book, Ape and Essence. Another book written almost but not quite like a screenplay. Big war happens, some people ride it out in New Zealand. After the war, they go to America. Everyone worships satan now. But it isn't what you think, the satanic church is a political hierarchy very much like the catholic church. Well, not exactly like the catholic church. Some minor differences. There's total sexual repression now, with stadium orgies on the holy days of obligation. Great, fun book.

The thing about the alchemy they practiced then, it just won't work in new game world. That picture would just be a photo op arranged by Surkov now.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: William Dudley Pelley, International Fascism & Sirius

Postby American Dream » Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:17 pm

Yeah, I was streamlining the Timothy Leary story. Messiah complex? Probably, but who could blame him? He did get in on the ground floor for something big. Opportunist? Sure. Huckster? Of course. Godfather? Naturally. Scientist? Always. Lover? Fuck, yeah! Mystic? You know it. CIA collaborator? We contain multitudes.

He knew so many handlers! This is prima facie evidence he needed to be handled. Karma's a bitch. Shoulda never burned the Clearlight people.
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Re: William Dudley Pelley, International Fascism & Sirius

Postby dada » Sun Sep 02, 2018 12:51 am

I guess I never really tried to get into Tim's head, to figure him out. Didn't really see the need. Just a kindred spirit, fellow space alien. The rest is surface stuff, wearing different hats. Changing agendas is being flexible, receptive to what's going on around you. Life throws you lemons, you make lemonade, bells, you ring them. Bars, jackpot. But the agendas aren't what's important, not the essence of a man.

And now I see him like Bob. Most likely missed what was right under his nose.

I say 'most likely,' because I can't prove it in the scientific way. But I know. They're both nodding their heads. They see it now. Tim says "Oh, ah, yes. I nose it." Bob goes, "Ah, whaddayou nose."
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Re: William Dudley Pelley, International Fascism & Sirius

Postby American Dream » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:20 am

Yeah, it's actually kind of a shock to me meeting/knowing people who have been involved with organized crime, union racketeering, police, military, and whatever else, who may also entertain elements of alt-right, trumpism, islamophobia and/or other things I don't agree with.

Even though I may strongly disagree with some of what they're into, I generally find real people who are sympathetic as people.
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Re: William Dudley Pelley, International Fascism & Sirius

Postby Wombaticus Rex » Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:22 pm

American Dream » Fri Aug 31, 2018 12:06 pm wrote:Grimstad's Nazi sympathies only serve to heighten my doubts about Robert Anton Wilson. Promoting characters like him, Michael Hoffman, Pauwels and Bergier (Nouvelle Droite types), as well as (I think) John Michell, Gary Allen, Nesta Helen Webster, Thor Heyerdahl etc., not to mention the left-handed monkey wrenches of the OTO Caliphate denotes very bad judgement, at best.

Maybe the concerns that he may have been Tim Leary's handler in that crucial time after the Doctor was released from jail, not to mention the speculation that he played a similar role for Kerry Thornley, need to be kept alive. This shit stands in stark contrast to what was going on in Berkeley CA at the time that Cosmic Trigger. Where was the left wing discourse? There was maybe a little, but not much at all.


A buddy once wrote off RAW's politics as "Playboy Libertarian" and, well, that stuck with me. Apt.

Upon his death, he was eulogized as a Libertarian by The Economist (nice of them to notice, really) - and they relate his semi-famous quip:

Once, when explaining why he didn't vote for Libertarian Party candidate Ed Clark, Wilson wrote "I am not that kind of Libertarian, really; I don't hate poor people."


Richard Metzger (Disinfo) had a fair summary on Xeni's site:

"There's some confusion about what his political philosophy was like. Wilson is always claimed by the Libertarians because he was against people being arrested for victimless crimes, but the Libertarians won't tell you that RAW also was a strong proponent of the "basic income guarantee" which would make him more of a Socialist than Libertarian, of course, but really he was neither. He wasn't deluded by any political system is perhaps the best way to put it)."


Of course, refusing to commit to any political program, in practice, tends to reduce us to mere cynicism, however informed.

Certainly the Guns And Dope Party was nothing serious, more of a bid to keep him signing books and traveling. As for the man himself, I would rather expect that Wilson kept his secrets -- even Albert Pike kept his secrets. They both may have told many a tale out of school, but few of us would ever lay all our cards on the table.

RAW was cunning -- in every sense. Especially the old one.

I believe you can trace, in his written work, the arc whereby he recognizes the Illuminatus! material is cultural dynamite with a lot of reach and continues to work those same themes and characters, but towards very different ends than the playful, whimsical tone of the original trilogy. I also believe the reason you see less Leftist politics in that later work is simple: that all came from Robert Shea, actual avowed Anarchist.

I have also been corresponding for a year now with a 33º freemason in Texas. Part of the time I think he’s the real Real Head of the Illuminati. Part of the time I think that he thinks I’m the Real Head. And part of the time I think he just likes to correspond with professional writers about occult subjects…


While the OTO link is interesting - endlessly, fractally interesting - it's tricky to verify how involved he really was, and for how long. It is quite possible the man chafed at their constraints as much as Crowley did; quite possible he viewed his participation not as some rare honor but just another lark in his long, colorful life.

I do like the crypto-reactionary secret agent idea more. But then, I would. I'll let ol' boy have the last word here.

Via: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library ... erspective

I agree passionately with Maurice Nicoll (a physician who mastered both Jungian and Gurdjieffian systems) who wrote that the major purpose of “work on consciousness” is to “decrease the amount of violence in the world.” The main difference between our world and Swift’s is that while we have stopped killing each other over religious differences (outside the Near East and Northern Ireland), we have developed an insane passion for killing each other over ideological differences. I regard Organized Ideology with the same horror that Voltaire had for Organized Religion.

Concretely, I am indeed a Male Feminist, as L.A. Rollins claimed (although seeing myself often on TV, I deny that I simper; I don’t even swish); like all libertarians, I oppose victimless crime laws, all drug control laws, and all forms of censorship (whether by outright reactionaries or Revolutionary Committees or Radical Feminists).

I passionately hate violence, but am not a Dogmatic Pacifist, since I don’t have Joan Baez’s Correct Answer Machine in my head. I know I would kill an armed aggressor, in a concrete crisis situation where that was the only defense of the specific lives of specific individuals I love, although I would never kill a person or employ even minor violence, or physical coercion, on behalf of capitalized Abstractions or Governments (who are all damned liars.) All these are matters of Existential Choice on my part, and not dogmas revealed to me by some god or some philosopher-priest of Natural Law.

I prefer the various Utopian systems I have mentioned to the Conservative position that humanity is incorrigible and I also think that if none of these Utopian scenarios are workable, some system will eventually arrive better than any we have ever known. I share the Jeffersonian (“Liberal”?) vision that the human mind can exceed all previous limits in a society where freedom of thought is the norm rather than a rare exception.

Does all of this make me a Leftist or a Rightist? I leave that for the Euclideans to decide.
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Re: William Dudley Pelley, International Fascism & Sirius

Postby dada » Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:08 pm

Let me first say that I agree with Bob and Maurice. I think the quick gloss needs clarification, though. When people hear "work on consciousness" they usually think of it in the integrative sense. But that's only the preliminaries, elementary school. The only way that work decreases violence is by removing you from the violence equation, stops you from adding to it like the clumsy, unbalanced dope you are at the start of the work. When you graduate, work on consciousness is an ongoing development of skills and strategies. That's when you can be trusted to go out and do some real decreasing of violence.

Neither is work on consciousness like scrubbing down your consciousness until it's sparkly clean, and then going out into the world to 'spread peace.' Nor is it renouncing the world, quieting the mind and sending out pure light vibrations that make people magically non-violent.

I'll do one of my stupid video game analogies. There's an enemy in some dungeons of zelda, the goriya, a big rodent, that reverse-mirrors your moves. You move towards it, it moves towards you. Move away, it moves away. Move left it moves right, and vice-versa. Stand in its line of sight, it shoots at you. Get too close, it bites you.

The rodent represents the violence in the world. Moving far away from it doesn't make it go away, neither does going forward and giving it a hug. You have to move around, to position it, set it up right where you want it. When it is at just the right distance, you shoot it with an arrow, and then dodge the bullet it shot back at you just before the arrow took it out.

I prefer the various Utopian systems I have mentioned to the Conservative position that humanity is incorrigible and I also think that if none of these Utopian scenarios are workable, some system will eventually arrive better than any we have ever known. I share the Jeffersonian (“Liberal”?) vision that the human mind can exceed all previous limits in a society where freedom of thought is the norm rather than a rare exception.


I take this as Bob saying in an opaque (perhaps delphic is the better choice here) way that the outlook doesn't look promising in the direction this line of thinking takes us. Not that the situation is hopeless, but perhaps we're going about this in the wrong way. Ever the incorrigible optimist.

Of course, this is Bob doing the 'statement of my political ideology' routine in his characteristic Bob way. Does bring to mind Bob Shea. He does this routine with his smart, thoughtful anarchist perspective occasionally in the No Governor zine.
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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