In The End, There's Only One Conspiracy That Matters

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Re: In The End, There's Only One Conspiracy That Matters

Postby JackRiddler » Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:10 pm

smiths » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:14 am wrote:
Destruction of the ecological basis sustaining the present global civilization and human population level is not a conspiracy


Former PM of Australia as he was knifed from office in a bizarre coup
""The reality is that a minority in the party room supported by others outside the Parliament have sought to bully [and] intimidate others into making this change of leadership that they're seeking."

Who are those "outside the Parliament" who worked to remove him from the leadership?

"there is a campaign being waged against them ... News Corporation (Murdoch) [is] waging a war against the Prime Minister of Australia.
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal ... 4zz7f.html

[snip]

In this country at least, there definitely has been a conspiracy to manipulate the public debate and understanding of climate science and the climate change crisis,

it has been run by the big mining companies and the coal lobby, and it it has used Murdoch and right-wing elements of the right-wing Liberal Party of Australia

attempts to deal with the mining lobby and teh coal lobby have cost 2 PM's their jobs


How is this a conspiracy? You just named the actors involved! You specified some of the means they employ. It's all legal. These are chartered shareholder and private corporations. Now I don't know if there were any violations of Australian law in the course of these actions, but I doubt it. You can be sure that when something like this was done in the U.S., the brokers doing it strive to keep it legal.

This is exactly what I mean when I say that "conspiracy" is the wrong frame for a larger understanding of power, which is right in front of you. I'm not saying ignore it, I'm saying adopt a language that actually describes it. (Hint: The c-word you are looking for is probably capitalism.)

Lobbying and political pressure and even backroom deals are not illegal. They are also not really secret, even if they are obscured and downplayed and misinterpreted in the corporate media. So they're not conspiratorial. If threats or inducements were delivered to certain parties involved in the decision to topple Turnbull, that might be illegal, but it also might not be. Conspiracy is still not the defining term. Framing it that way is a mystification that these powers-that-be will welcome. They will call you a "conspiracy theorist" to discredit you just for describing what you can see. But by using the label where it does not apply, you cede this ground to them freely. You do a massive disservice to understanding and the ability to fight back by accepting the enemy's attack label, especially where it does not apply.

Private lobby action in your country as in others effectively chooses the political leaders. These guys hang out together, sometimes (nowadays) even in front of papparazzi. They write the laws so that what they do is legal. Of course, criminal conspiracies may be involved as tools in these actions. They may also arise among networks within the power elite for personal gain or so as to pursue some outlandish vision. But most of the "vision" is not outlandish, it arises from the system dynamics and anyone can figure it out. (For example: Buy cheap, preferably by stealing it from the weak; sell dear, and advertise it; squeeze the labor; keep the repressive apparatus well-oiled. Keep the politicians in terror or at the money-teat.)

The central elements at work here are system ("mode of production" if you prefer). It has a logic. It results in a distribution of wealth and power among groups, which are usefully called classes, not conspiracies. Power is exercised mainly through institutional control. Probably the most important element is the continuing hegemony of capitalist ideology and its particular form of "democracy," which isn't. People accept that Murdoch owns your media, since he bought it legally. Probably most of the people who disagree with his politics still accept that it's his "freedom of speech" to run your society from the brainstem. He and his get to meet your politicians and their factotums all the time. That's disliked but accepted, at least as a fact of life.

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Re: In The End, There's Only One Conspiracy That Matters

Postby dada » Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:17 pm

Hey Jack, on further reflection, I've decided it was you who wasn't being sensitive enough!

(Practicing my kayfabe moves. Kayfabe is a skill like any other, you know, gets better with practice. But are we the Faces or the Heels? If we're the Faces, then this was me doing a 'heel turn.' Personally, I'd rather play a Heel. Everybody knows, Heels are the big draw. Roddy Piper, Ric Flair, come on. It's no contest. Everybody loves to hate a good heel.)
Both his words and manner of speech seemed at first totally unfamiliar to me, and yet somehow they stirred memories - as an actor might be stirred by the forgotten lines of some role he had played far away and long ago.
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Re: In The End, There's Only One Conspiracy That Matters

Postby smiths » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:11 pm

capitalism is an economic belief that becomes an operating system - it has its own logic

conspiracy is groups of people meeting or connecting in secret to achieve outcomes they dont declare publicly

The mining and media executives, with elements of the political class have conspired in secret to influence government policy to achieve an outcome they have not declared publicy

thats a conspiracy
the question is why, who, why, what, why, when, why and why again?
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Re: In The End, There's Only One Conspiracy That Matters

Postby JackRiddler » Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:54 am

.

That means they are dishonest. They will tell any lie. They will fool anyone they can. They are villains. But they are also compelled to lie. It is all they know to do. Their actions are systemic. They are compelled by the primacy of property and profit imperative, and by the hegemony of capitalist values. As long as this system of political economy prevails, this is what they will do. If they are imprisoned -- which they should be -- but if the system does not change, then new sociopaths will take their place. Not so gradually, these will end up doing the same thing in their place.

The system is not corrupted. It works as designed. It changes, it evolves as contexts change, but always to meet the same imperatives. This constantly makes them do and be even worse than before. Still, the imperatives do not change: Do all to protect the existing private property rights in land, water, air, and the means of production. Murder anyone and everyone as necessary. Maximize exploitation, profit, and accumulation. Repeat. The laggards fall behind, only the maximum ROI wins in the medium term. If burning the planet maximizes accumulation, then so must it be. (This is the fucking ideology, never mind the bollocks about freedom and democracy: Win at whatever price it costs. Fuck the world. Winners count, losers fuck off.)

This system is what must be replaced. Calling it "conspiracy" -- the trap-word they would prefer you to use -- is mystification. The ruling class is visible to anyone who looks, today more than ever. Their names are in the papers most ever day. Their motives are easy to figure out. Their excuses are transparent and must be treated with contempt. They are not occult. They are not magical. In large part their power relies on your belief in it.

I'm telling you that you have already figured this shit out. Don't block yourself.

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We meet at the borders of our being, we dream something of each others reality. - Harvey of R.I.

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Re: In The End, There's Only One Conspiracy That Matters

Postby smiths » Wed Sep 12, 2018 4:51 am

They are not occult. They are not magical. In large part their power relies on your belief in it.


Their 'plan' is occult, in the sense that it is hidden from explicit publication

Their power is real, it is not a belief i have that gives it to them - They run powerful companies that wield extraordinary real power.

The reality of their power conforms well to the PK Dickian definition - their power continues whether i believe in it or not.

Money bestows power, and they have all the money - this is not a belief.

The weird flipside of this discussion is that you exhibit a fatalism in your explanations that i dont have, even though you then say that they should have no power but we give it to them

The systems will still break down as an almost physical inevitability


Nothing is inevitable, no system is unbreakable
the question is why, who, why, what, why, when, why and why again?
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Re: In The End, There's Only One Conspiracy That Matters

Postby 82_28 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:36 am

To JR and smiths, both well said! I'm not going to wade in right now, but I want to chime in to say you're both right. All shit to think about.

:sun:
There is no me. There is no you. There is all. There is no you. There is no me. And that is all. A profound acceptance of an enormous pageantry. A haunting certainty that the unifying principle of this universe is love. -- Propagandhi
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Re: In The End, There's Only One Conspiracy That Matters

Postby kelley » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:15 am

a pithy observation:


"Their 'plan' is occult, in the sense that it is hidden from explicit publication."


and important to remember

yet even so

and as jack notes

the plan is quite explicit

these motherfuckers mean to kill us all

that should be obvious by now to anyone who's been paying attention

occult means to a deadly end

and i mean 'end' in a very singular sense as the methane fires are relit etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc
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Re: In The End, There's Only One Conspiracy That Matters

Postby smiths » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:54 am

like so many of these conversations, i think we agree but we use words that have varied meanings,

i used occult in the old sense - hidden

i used conspire in the literal sense - secret plan not revealed

and i used explicit to mean openly stated - i have certainly never heard an Australian coal executive state openly, "profit is all we care about and we intend to subvert the democracy of Australia to make sure no law touches our bottom line" - that would be explicit, and they don't say that

I agree with almost everything you wrote though Jack about the 'system' and its logic

although i do think a lot of the structure has been corrupted and was not originally designed to be used quite as it is,

i think the principles of democratic power sharing and law making are good - the ideals of equality of justice for all is good, the idea that 'the people' govern themselves is good (to a point)

in practice it is shaped to do something else
the question is why, who, why, what, why, when, why and why again?
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Re: In The End, There's Only One Conspiracy That Matters

Postby Harvey » Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:01 am

The literal meaning of conspire is 'breathe together.'
And while we spoke of many things, fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return"


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Re: In The End, There's Only One Conspiracy That Matters

Postby dada » Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:07 pm

Harvey wrote:The literal meaning of conspire is 'breathe together.'


Now we're getting down to it. The one big conspiracy, the only one that matters. The conspiracy of the living.

And who does the living conspire against. The dead, the undead, and that which is never born. I know which side I'm on.

Don't assume that just because one breathes that one must automatically work for the one big conspiracy. Any conspiracy can be infiltrated by spies.

In fact, there are stories of conspiracies that became so infiltrated with spies, there were more spies than conspirators.
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Re: In The End, There's Only One Conspiracy That Matters

Postby JackRiddler » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:25 am

.

Breathing together, occult means hidden, we all know this. Come on now. This is RI.

We aren't arguing on facts here. We seem to be in rough agreement on those. The question is whether and when the conspiracy frame is a) accurate for description and b) rhetorically useful. Rhetorically, "conspiracy theorist" has been commandeered on the one hand by the propaganda machine as an epithet meaning an antisocial total idiot, on the other by actual idiots and antisocial merchandisers to idiots. Still, if it is an accurate frame for description, we should insist on it. I am saying it generally obscures and mystifies more than it explains, however. So it's almost never useful, except in the sense of conspiracy law (i.e., accusations of crimes under existing law involving planning by two or more parties). Yet "conspiracy theory" is rarely used positively to mean theorizing about possible criminal collusions. It is more often used to denote a prefabricated simpleminded worldview in which a designated group runs everything in the world and no one has figured it out yet, except the cognoscenti. Mystification aids the enemy, who are known and visible. They are the owners of capital, a ruling class, a set of institutions that they hold sway over, and they generally employ legal means, having written the laws in the first place so that you can read about it in the world's Federal Registers. When they commit the greatest crimes, those of aggressive war and imperialism, they have a readymade international legal framework for justifying it. That is what must be attacked and undermined, above all morally, factually, logically, politically. Regarding their power, nowhere do I say the power of the ruling class is based on your assent. It is, however, helped, even completed, when as an opponent you use the language they would prefer you to use because it is inaccurate and discrediting. When you say the obvious and the righteous, you're going to be called a conspiracy theorist anyway (it has replaced "communist"). Don't fall for preemptive adoption of the attack label.

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Re: In The End, There's Only One Conspiracy That Matters

Postby dada » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:00 am

Whether the conspiracy frame is an 'accurate descriptor' is inconsequential, since it isn't 'accurate' in the sense of a "weapon, missile, or shot capable of or successful in reaching the intended target." 'Rhetorically useful' is an oxymoron, in my opinion.

So what are we left with? The conspiracy frame is artistically useful, same as it always was.

I wonder, though, what is the sense of warning people not to preemptively fall for the label. I mean, strategically. Isn't this one of these situations where "one must adopt the premise of the falsehood to debunk it." Platforming what you're trying to fight, giving it power, having the exact opposite effect of what you're trying to accomplish.

To effectively fight this would be a matter of getting outside of the frame of the debate. Absurdify. Creative intelligence and finesse. Don't adopt the rules of the debate. Like that move when you hit BS with the chair. That was fucking fantastic.

meh, just a suggestion. What do I know. I just think it's a matter of fully understanding what the strategy of the enemy is, to fight effectively.

I mean, I could quote Oskar Schlemmer, “One should act as if the world had just been created; one should not analyze a thing to death, but rather let it unfold gradually and without interference.”

Sounds good, right? But I got the quote from Surkov's Twitter feed, which I was browsing last night. Things just are not that simple anymore. I understand Americans backslide around the nine eleven anniversary, but this is new game world we're living in, like it or not.

So I still prefer my framework. The conspiracy of the living, against the dead. My team.
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Re: In The End, There's Only One Conspiracy That Matters

Postby liminalOyster » Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:13 am

Wombaticus Rex » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:42 pm wrote:I remain unconvinced that human beings are capable of effectively governing human societies.


What's your beef with Denmark?
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Re: In The End, There's Only One Conspiracy That Matters

Postby Elvis » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:06 am

How about Exxon's, umm, collusion with science writers and others to discredit fossil-fuelled global warming? Certainly done in the dark. Illegal? Would a law have stopped Exxon from paying writers to lie?

I'd call it a conspiracy, while acknowledging the mincability of that word. Even after the collusion was revealed, there was a second, somewhat successful conspiracy to "debunk" the first one.


But getting more to 8bit's point, I think, is the remark of a mineral company (I think?) executive who was questioned about the environmental impact of a company project (paraphrasing): "Oh, we just remove the environment." :shock:

(Anyone recall that?)
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Re: In The End, There's Only One Conspiracy That Matters

Postby liminalOyster » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:27 am

Elvis » Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:06 am wrote:How about Exxon's, umm, collusion with science writers and others to discredit fossil-fuelled global warming? Certainly done in the dark. Illegal? Would a law have stopped Exxon from paying writers to lie?

I'd call it a conspiracy, while acknowledging the mincability of that word. Even after the collusion was revealed, there was a second, somewhat successful conspiracy to "debunk" the first one.


But getting more to 8bit's point, I think, is the remark of a mineral company (I think?) executive who was questioned about the environmental impact of a company project (paraphrasing): "Oh, we just remove the environment." :shock:

(Anyone recall that?)


The problem, though, is that the very idea that a name can be given to "everything" is a Eurocentric magic trick. The "environment" is meaningless. I still care, of course, about conditions for life being maintained. But one of the big problems with environmentalism at large is, by detaching from human lives and outcomes in favor of this odd and imagined monism, it tries to take on capitalism without having to name it as the enemy.
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