Venezuela - U.S. Again Tries Regime Change...

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Re: Venezuela - U.S. Again Tries Regime Change...

Postby MacCruiskeen » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:01 pm

^^^^^^

Elliot Abrams: "...the entire thrust of American policy in Venezuela is to support the Venezuelan people's efforts to restore democracy to their country. That's our policy."

Ilhan Omar: "I don't think anybody disputes that."
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Re: Venezuela - U.S. Again Tries Regime Change...

Postby Grizzly » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:45 pm

Weak sauce for sure.... It could have been a defining moment in all this... But petered out pretty quickly.
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Re: Venezuela - U.S. Again Tries Regime Change...

Postby MacCruiskeen » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:19 pm

It was an entirely scripted "confrontation". I mean, she was literally reading from a script*, probably off a laptop screen, and ostentatiously helpless without it (or even with it)

So Ilhan Omar has just achieved the seemingly impossible: she has made Elliot Abrams look good. She has rehabilitated Elliot.fucking.Abrams, who spoke the truth, probably for the first time in his miserable life: "That is not a real question." Damn right it wasn't. WWE. WWF. Kayfabe. A charade.

And that's how you pass an audition for the Democratic Party.

*Who wrote that script?
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Re: Venezuela - U.S. Again Tries Regime Change...

Postby RocketMan » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:12 am

I'm usually pretty acidic myself but I have to defend Rep. Omar here. Sure it wasn't a thundering performance, but it's a good start. Her agreeing with Abrams at the end I hadn't noticed, that was a mistake for sure. But she did bring the issue forward in a reasonably forceful manner and she didn't let Abrams lecture her, cutting him off. As for these "giggly" and "smiling" comments, they just smack of male chauvinism, sorry.

You really think a lot of people on the Hill are prepared to say things like "El Mozote massacre" and "raped and killed women and children" to Elliot fucking Abrams's face like that? She's a young freshman who was born in Somalia for chrissakes. She's just getting started.

As for "REHABILITATED" Elliot Abrams? WTF, I want some of what you're smoking...
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Re: Venezuela - U.S. Again Tries Regime Change...

Postby JackRiddler » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:50 am

.

Those comments are incredibly unfair to Omar, who is under a serious propaganda attack just like the one pulled on Corbyn and Labour. Interestingly, it's showing a lot of backfire. DSA and many other supporters on the US left have been unconditional in calling this out as bullshit, no apologies. (Corbyn, Momentum and Labour are all incredibly wimpy when attacked with bogus anti-Semitism charges; are they therefore the staged fake opposition?) Such charges are usually more effective as a weapon of political assassination than Polonium 212. Her "unequivocal apology" was a decent jiujitsu that reinforced the point about money in politics. She seems to have found just the right time to start a frank discussion about AIPAC, almost as if it is okay to say it is a big lobby that dispenses a lot of money to get its way with politicians. Shocking!

If we apply the rather insane standard of what MLK was doing at her age, then obviously all of us suck big balls. Everyone is a big cowardly fake. I give up. By the MLK standard, I am totally embarrassed by everything I've ever done -- basically nothing -- except for the extramarital affairs. I really have no right to ever say or do anything again. At least Omar's doing a bit better than me.

English is obviously her second language -- though she is plenty good -- and political history is clearly something she's still learning, which is fine. Whatever her age, what counts is that she's learning it right, because she's interested in exactly the right issues. She hit Abrams on the right points, whether or not it was a polished performance in your eyes, or whether or not she read from a prepared text. (So what?!) Giggling is a well-known response to nervousness. (These critiques seem to boil down to the fact that she is not a theater professional.)

The echo in the media was effective. In no version of reality has Abrams been "rehabilitated"!!! On the contrary, many younger people are hearing about him and learning about his criminal history for the first time, and this is good. It's pretty clear Abrams and Omar meant different things with their concluding "agreement" as her time ran out. The bit about yielding the remainder of her time is the boilerplate invocation at the end of almost every statement ever made in Congress.

You don't have to like her. You don't have to like the strategy of running progressives within the Democratic Party, the leadership of which of course stood up to applaud Trump's attack on "socialism" among all the rest of their bad moves. You can reject these as false hopes that in the end will reinforce the status quo. But if you find yourself stretching your personal attacks implausibly, and throwing the kitchen sink at Omar and AOC, at the same time this is the 24/7 activity of Foxnews and Sinclair and the Koch-guided bots on the NYT comments, it's okay to ask yourself why.

MacCruiskeen » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:19 pm wrote:*Who wrote that script?


*We may never know but I wish I had a net worth to bet in full that it was... her staff.

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Re: Venezuela - U.S. Again Tries Regime Change...

Postby RocketMan » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:34 pm

#resistance
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Re: Venezuela - U.S. Again Tries Regime Change...

Postby Grizzly » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:02 pm

^^ THERE WILL BE NO RESPONSE TO THE ABOVE, BY LIFE LONG DEMS.
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Re: Venezuela - U.S. Again Tries Regime Change...

Postby PufPuf93 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:34 pm

Grizzly » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:02 pm wrote:^^ THERE WILL BE NO RESPONSE TO THE ABOVE, BY LIFE LONG DEMS.


I am a life long Democrat. The only time I have ever voted for a non-democrat for John Anderson in the 1980 GOP POTUS primary in CA against Reagan. I disliked Reagan because I was a student at Cal when he was governor and resigned after 16 years with the Feds when Reagan was POTUS and screwed up the agency where I was employed (USFS).

That said in no way do I approve of the Democratic Party leadership which is stuck on the status quo of neoliberalism and global military aggression in support of neoliberalism.

If one pays attention, Venezuela has been in the sights of the USA since Chavez was elected, irrespective of GOP or Democratic POTUS starting with Plan Colombia where Venezuela was surrounded by US military bases. There was the failed 2002 coup, the oil strike, separatists in Zulia, various economic sanctions, demonization in corporate media, and so on. There has been a roll back of left leaning politicians in Latin America from Brazil to Honduras to Ecuador.

I plan on staying a Democrat because essentially there is no where else to go in the 2-party system that is the USA representative republic. This does not mean I have to be happy with or approve of t Democratic party leadership that is allergic to change from status quo neoliberalism to the detriment of most of us.
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Re: Venezuela - U.S. Again Tries Regime Change...

Postby RocketMan » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:36 pm

If I were a US citizen I'd probably vote Democratic, too, through tears of rage...

PufPuf93 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:34 pm wrote:
Grizzly » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:02 pm wrote:^^ THERE WILL BE NO RESPONSE TO THE ABOVE, BY LIFE LONG DEMS.


I am a life long Democrat. The only time I have ever voted for a non-democrat for John Anderson in the 1980 GOP POTUS primary in CA against Reagan. I disliked Reagan because I was a student at Cal when he was governor and resigned after 16 years with the Feds when Reagan was POTUS and screwed up the agency where I was employed (USFS).

That said in no way do I approve of the Democratic Party leadership which is stuck on the status quo of neoliberalism and global military aggression in support of neoliberalism.

If one pays attention, Venezuela has been in the sights of the USA since Chavez was elected, irrespective of GOP or Democratic POTUS starting with Plan Colombia where Venezuela was surrounded by US military bases. There was the failed 2002 coup, the oil strike, separatists in Zulia, various economic sanctions, demonization in corporate media, and so on. There has been a roll back of left leaning politicians in Latin America from Brazil to Honduras to Ecuador.

I plan on staying a Democrat because essentially there is no where else to go in the 2-party system that is the USA representative republic. This does not mean I have to be happy with or approve of t Democratic party leadership that is allergic to change from status quo neoliberalism to the detriment of most of us.
-I don't like hoodlums.
-That's just a word, Marlowe. We have that kind of world. Two wars gave it to us and we are going to keep it.
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Re: Venezuela - U.S. Again Tries Regime Change...

Postby MacCruiskeen » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:34 pm

DEM PARTY HANDLER: OK, kid, here's your big chance. Don't foul it up.

ILHAN OMAR (age 38): I won't! (To Elliott Abrams) Mr. Adams...

DEM PARTY HANDLER: (gives her a big thumbs-up)

______________________________


She really said that. She really called him "Mr Adams". And she never corrected herself.

But of course I'm holding her to an impossibly high standard here, expecting her to know the guy's name, expecting her to be able to say "Iran-Contra" without pausing uncertainly at the hyphen and double-checking her script.

Meanwhile, I'm still trying to find out who appointed her to that Committee (she's the sole freshman Congressperson on it, right?) *

I'm also still looking for a full transcript of their "fiery" (sic) exchange. Until I find it, here's a summary:

_______________________________

ILHAN OMAR (age 38): Mr Adams, a long time ago you were co-responsible for employing some foreign Bad Guys who once massacred and raped some folks under our watch. Are you in favour of massacring and raping folks?

ABRAMS: Of course not. That is a ridiculous question.

ILHAN OMAR (age 38): Today America is once again preparing to engage in its civilizing mission in Latin America. When we go into Venezuela to restore democracy, Mr Addison, will you promise to take better care this time?

ABRAMS: Yes.

ILHAN OMAR (age 38): Thank you for your precipitation, Mr Adlon. I can't think of anything more to say, so I yield up the rest of my time.



* On Edit: Ilhan Omar was appointed to the Foreign Affairs Committee on January 17, 2019 by Nancy Pelosi and her three co-chairs, Congresswoman Rosa DeLauro of Connecticut, Congressman Eric Swalwell of California and Congresswoman Barbara Lee of California:

11.30.18
Pelosi Announces Co-Chairs of Steering and Policy Committee

Washington, D.C. – Speaker-designate Nancy Pelosi announced today that she will recommend Congresswoman Rosa DeLauro of Connecticut, Congressman Eric Swalwell of California and Congresswoman Barbara Lee of California to serve as the three Co-Chairs of the Steering and Policy Committee. [...]

https://lee.house.gov/news/press-releas ... -committee


Americans will presumably be more familiar with these politicians and their records than I am.
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Re: Venezuela - U.S. Again Tries Regime Change...

Postby MacCruiskeen » Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:48 pm

Chairman Eliot L. Engel (Democrat): Remarks at Full Committee Hearing on Venezuela
February 13, 2019

https://foreignaffairs.house.gov/2019/2 ... -venezuela


Read and weep. Full-spectrum bipartisan support for His Presidentialness Donald Trump's ongoing screwing of Venezuela, following Obama's screwing of the same country.
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Re: Venezuela - U.S. Again Tries Regime Change...

Postby Grizzly » Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:03 am

^^ Just as I suspected. Thanks Mac.
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Re: Venezuela - U.S. Again Tries Regime Change...

Postby Jerky » Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:26 am

I hate to point out a mistake in a thread where I'm pretty much 100% in agreement with you, Jack, but China executes thousands of people every year. America is a piker in comparison.

Jerky

JackRiddler » 08 Feb 2019 09:22 wrote:Good stuff, though he loses me a few minutes before the end when he describes the epic (capitalist) corruption in Venezuela and the extremely high rates of violent street-crime, and then endorses what he calls the Cuban but also Taiwanese, Chinese, and Singaporean ways of dealing with both political corruption and street crime - he says they just shoot the miscreants, to uphold law and order. Shoot the drug dealer, he even says! Yeah, nothing could go wrong with that idea, or has gone wrong in these very same countries. This is nothing US Republicans and in fact Donald Trump himself have ever endorsed. Wait, actually, it is. And the US has the highest rate of imprisonment globally and, within the West, hands-down the highest rate of executions (and deals with political corruption by having completely legalized it). I doubt he endorses US law and order policy. The whole point of due process is that enforcement can be and often is applied in completely wrong ways. And regarding Cuba, I think Galloway in this bit of bloodthirst is provably wrong. They don't imprison or execute at higher rates than the US or China or Iran (another famously corrupt economy), and Galloway is almost feeding (unintentionally) into the myths of Cuba as some kind of exceptional police state.
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Re: Venezuela - U.S. Again Tries Regime Change...

Postby JackRiddler » Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:53 am

(request for a correction - was provided, thanks)
Last edited by JackRiddler on Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Venezuela - U.S. Again Tries Regime Change...

Postby Jerky » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:30 am

Upon re-reading your original post, I see that you are indeed correct. I read too quickly, subconsciously ignored your "in the West" qualification, and apparently jumped at the chance to proclaim you in error.

You have my apologies.

Jerky
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