Coronavirus Crisis: Main Thread

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Re: Manufactured 'Contagion' - Coronavirus Edition

Postby Elvis » Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:26 am

alloneword wrote:The look of panic among medics, patients failing to get oxygen in their lungs and dangerous under-dressing of staff: Frontline NHS doctor reveals how coronavirus has unleashed terror in hospital

Doctor with a decade of experience says nothing prepared him for coronavirus
Frontline healthcare worker writes the UK is 'grossly unprepared' for the virus
Individual has more than a decade of experience and works in London hospital
Coronavirus symptoms: what are they and should you see a doctor?

By A Frontline Doctor For The Mail On Sunday


No offense but your Swiss drs link was pretty boring. Lots of numbers, and who has time to follow all those internal links? Anyway all the data will change tomorrow, and the next day...right? Why bother, we'll all die soon enough.

This second one, from TMOS is better because it's like a story. A sad, scary story—I touched my face with both hands during the gruesome parts—but with an ending that leaves room for hope. By the end, I felt purged, a bit drained, and after a shallow breath I was able to move on with a fresh sense of purposelessness.

Are the miniseries rights available? We need to move fast—what's the doctor's name?

/humor
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Re: Manufactured 'Contagion' - Coronavirus Edition

Postby MacCruiskeen » Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:52 am

Ffs, it is not rocket science:

1. Build More Respirators. It is easy. They are not battleships, ffs.

2. Requisition hotels as emergency hospitals. (They are already empty anyway.)

3. Issue an urgent call to all medical or nursing students to undergo special crash courses in operating respirators, etc. (All colleges are closed anyway.) They want to help. They will flock to help. They do not want their grandparents to die before their time..

All this was fucking obvious weeks ago.
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Re: Manufactured 'Contagion' - Coronavirus Edition

Postby MacCruiskeen » Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:26 am

40 years of neoliberalism. Mass stupidification. Mass verbal and visual illiteracy. Mass inability to read between the lines of any media output.

NO ONE HEALTHY AND UNDER RETIREMENT AGE IS AT ANY SERIOUS RISK OF DEATH, OR EVEN SERIOUS ILLNESS.

Name even one counter-example.
"Ich kann gar nicht so viel fressen, wie ich kotzen möchte." - Max Liebermann,, Berlin, 1933

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." - Richard Feynman, NYC, 1966

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Re: Manufactured 'Contagion' - Coronavirus Edition

Postby MacCruiskeen » Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:28 am

@offguardian
"Ich kann gar nicht so viel fressen, wie ich kotzen möchte." - Max Liebermann,, Berlin, 1933

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." - Richard Feynman, NYC, 1966

TESTDEMIC ➝ "CASE"DEMIC
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Re: Manufactured 'Contagion' - Coronavirus Edition

Postby BenDhyan » Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:58 am

It's on....

Trump announces mobilization of military assets in fight against ‘hidden enemy’

GUARD ACTIVATED: President Trump announced last night the call-up of thousands of National Guard troops for the three states hardest hit by the COVID-19 epidemic: New York, California, and Washington. The forces are being activated under Title 32 authority, which means they will be federal employees but under the control of state governors.

“The federal government will be funding 100% of the cost of deploying National Guard units to carry out approved missions to stop the virus, while those governors remain in command,” said Trump at a White House coronavirus briefing last night. “This action will give them maximum flexibility to use the Guard against the virus without having to worry about costs or liability and freeing up state resources to protect the health and safety of the people in their state.”

‘NOT MARTIAL LAW’: In a follow-up conference call with reporters last night, Gen. Joseph Lengyel, chief of the National Guard Bureau, tried to dispel persistent rumors on social media that Guard troops might be used to enforce a “lockdown” of American citizens. “No conspiring to use the National Guard in any case to do some sort of military action to enforce shelter in place and quarantine … as some of the social media is trying to portray."

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/trump-announces-mobilization-of-military-assets-in-fight-against-hidden-enemy
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Re: Manufactured 'Contagion' - Coronavirus Edition

Postby alloneword » Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:03 am

From the EuroMOMO (European Monitoring of Excess Mortality for Public Health Action) website:

https://www.euromomo.eu/index.html

Note concerning COVID-19 related mortality as part of the all-cause mortality figures reported by EuroMOMO

Over the past few days, the EuroMOMO hub has received many questions about the weekly all-cause mortality data and the possible contribution of any COVID-19 related mortality. Some wonder why no increased mortality is observed in the reported mortality figures for the COVID-19 affected countries.
The answer is that increased mortality that may occur primarily at subnational level or within smaller focal areas, and/or concentrated within smaller age groups, may not be detected at the overall national level. This even more so in the pooled European-wide analysis, given the large total population denominator. Furthermore, there is always a few weeks of delay in death registration and reporting. Hence, the EuroMOMO mortality figures for the most recent weeks must be interpreted with some caution.
Therefore, although increased mortality is currently not being observed in the EuroMOMO figures, this does not mean that increased mortality does not occur in some areas or in some age groups, including mortality related to COVID-19.


So the reason you can't see an increase in excess mortality is that the massive increase in excess mortality is so small (if it even exists) that you can't see it. Now wash your hands (whilst staying indoors).

I can think of a few things that should be 'interpreted with some caution' at the moment.
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Re: Manufactured 'Contagion' - Coronavirus Edition

Postby Blue » Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:22 am

[THIS POST WAS ACCIDENTALLY REPLACED BY A MODERATOR ERROR!!! SORRY!!! PLEASE REPOST!! EDITING MISTAKE!!! SORRY FOR THE EXTRA WORK! - extremely embarrassed JackRiddler]
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Re: Manufactured 'Contagion' - Coronavirus Edition

Postby minime » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:07 am

I saw a number of others without effort. And we're in just the first few days. This hasn't begun yet.

Fortunately and unfortunately, Mac lives in a world in which virtual, or maybe emotional truth--such a staple here at RI, and its reason for being--is more important than what is actually happening.

Unfortunately, such a strategy is neither rigorous nor intuitive. Nor is it even emotionally true. Only delusion born of anxiety and paranoia. Counterproductive, even damaging psychically to everyone involved.

Shout out to Mac et al: Fifteen years of this irresponsible rumormongering, and probably a most of a lifetime before that. And that's too long. Is it too late to change?
Last edited by minime on Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Manufactured 'Contagion' - Coronavirus Edition

Postby Sounder » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:16 am

I think John Ioannidis is not seeing how transmissible this bug is. I am anxious as hell upon finding people close to me being infected with some nasty bug, with no help or even testing available. Isolate and tuff it out, not a good prescription for 'health care'.


https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/17/a-f ... able-data/

A fiasco in the making? As the coronavirus pandemic takes hold, we are making decisions without reliable data

By John P.A. Ioannidis

March 17, 2020
The current coronavirus disease, Covid-19, has been called a once-in-a-century pandemic. But it may also be a once-in-a-century evidence fiasco.

At a time when everyone needs better information, from disease modelers and governments to people quarantined or just social distancing, we lack reliable evidence on how many people have been infected with SARS-CoV-2 or who continue to become infected. Better information is needed to guide decisions and actions of monumental significance and to monitor their impact.

Draconian countermeasures have been adopted in many countries. If the pandemic dissipates — either on its own or because of these measures — short-term extreme social distancing and lockdowns may be bearable. How long, though, should measures like these be continued if the pandemic churns across the globe unabated? How can policymakers tell if they are doing more good than harm?

Vaccines or affordable treatments take many months (or even years) to develop and test properly. Given such timelines, the consequences of long-term lockdowns are entirely unknown.
Related:
We know enough now to act decisively against Covid-19. Social distancing is a good place to start

The data collected so far on how many people are infected and how the epidemic is evolving are utterly unreliable. Given the limited testing to date, some deaths and probably the vast majority of infections due to SARS-CoV-2 are being missed. We don’t know if we are failing to capture infections by a factor of three or 300. Three months after the outbreak emerged, most countries, including the U.S., lack the ability to test a large number of people and no countries have reliable data on the prevalence of the virus in a representative random sample of the general population.

This evidence fiasco creates tremendous uncertainty about the risk of dying from Covid-19. Reported case fatality rates, like the official 3.4% rate from the World Health Organization, cause horror — and are meaningless. Patients who have been tested for SARS-CoV-2 are disproportionately those with severe symptoms and bad outcomes. As most health systems have limited testing capacity, selection bias may even worsen in the near future.

The one situation where an entire, closed population was tested was the Diamond Princess cruise ship and its quarantine passengers. The case fatality rate there was 1.0%, but this was a largely elderly population, in which the death rate from Covid-19 is much higher.

Projecting the Diamond Princess mortality rate onto the age structure of the U.S. population, the death rate among people infected with Covid-19 would be 0.125%. But since this estimate is based on extremely thin data — there were just seven deaths among the 700 infected passengers and crew — the real death rate could stretch from five times lower (0.025%) to five times higher (0.625%). It is also possible that some of the passengers who were infected might die later, and that tourists may have different frequencies of chronic diseases — a risk factor for worse outcomes with SARS-CoV-2 infection — than the general population. Adding these extra sources of uncertainty, reasonable estimates for the case fatality ratio in the general U.S. population vary from 0.05% to 1%.
Related:
Coronavirus model shows individual hospitals what to expect in the coming weeks

That huge range markedly affects how severe the pandemic is and what should be done. A population-wide case fatality rate of 0.05% is lower than seasonal influenza. If that is the true rate, locking down the world with potentially tremendous social and financial consequences may be totally irrational. It’s like an elephant being attacked by a house cat. Frustrated and trying to avoid the cat, the elephant accidentally jumps off a cliff and dies.

Could the Covid-19 case fatality rate be that low? No, some say, pointing to the high rate in elderly people. However, even some so-called mild or common-cold-type coronaviruses that have been known for decades can have case fatality rates as high as 8% when they infect elderly people in nursing homes. In fact, such “mild” coronaviruses infect tens of millions of people every year, and account for 3% to 11% of those hospitalized in the U.S. with lower respiratory infections each winter.

These “mild” coronaviruses may be implicated in several thousands of deaths every year worldwide, though the vast majority of them are not documented with precise testing. Instead, they are lost as noise among 60 million deaths from various causes every year.

Although successful surveillance systems have long existed for influenza, the disease is confirmed by a laboratory in a tiny minority of cases. In the U.S., for example, so far this season 1,073,976 specimens have been tested and 222,552 (20.7%) have tested positive for influenza. In the same period, the estimated number of influenza-like illnesses is between 36,000,000 and 51,000,000, with an estimated 22,000 to 55,000 flu deaths.

Note the uncertainty about influenza-like illness deaths: a 2.5-fold range, corresponding to tens of thousands of deaths. Every year, some of these deaths are due to influenza and some to other viruses, like common-cold coronaviruses.

In an autopsy series that tested for respiratory viruses in specimens from 57 elderly persons who died during the 2016 to 2017 influenza season, influenza viruses were detected in 18% of the specimens, while any kind of respiratory virus was found in 47%. In some people who die from viral respiratory pathogens, more than one virus is found upon autopsy and bacteria are often superimposed. A positive test for coronavirus does not mean necessarily that this virus is always primarily responsible for a patient’s demise.


If we assume that case fatality rate among individuals infected by SARS-CoV-2 is 0.3% in the general population — a mid-range guess from my Diamond Princess analysis — and that 1% of the U.S. population gets infected (about 3.3 million people), this would translate to about 10,000 deaths. This sounds like a huge number, but it is buried within the noise of the estimate of deaths from “influenza-like illness.” If we had not known about a new virus out there, and had not checked individuals with PCR tests, the number of total deaths due to “influenza-like illness” would not seem unusual this year. At most, we might have casually noted that flu this season seems to be a bit worse than average. The media coverage would have been less than for an NBA game between the two most indifferent teams.

Some worry that the 68 deaths from Covid-19 in the U.S. as of March 16 will increase exponentially to 680, 6,800, 68,000, 680,000 … along with similar catastrophic patterns around the globe. Is that a realistic scenario, or bad science fiction? How can we tell at what point such a curve might stop?

The most valuable piece of information for answering those questions would be to know the current prevalence of the infection in a random sample of a population and to repeat this exercise at regular time intervals to estimate the incidence of new infections. Sadly, that’s information we don’t have.

In the absence of data, prepare-for-the-worst reasoning leads to extreme measures of social distancing and lockdowns. Unfortunately, we do not know if these measures work. School closures, for example, may reduce transmission rates. But they may also backfire if children socialize anyhow, if school closure leads children to spend more time with susceptible elderly family members, if children at home disrupt their parents ability to work, and more. School closures may also diminish the chances of developing herd immunity in an age group that is spared serious disease.

This has been the perspective behind the different stance of the United Kingdom keeping schools open, at least until as I write this. In the absence of data on the real course of the epidemic, we don’t know whether this perspective was brilliant or catastrophic.

Flattening the curve to avoid overwhelming the health system is conceptually sound — in theory. A visual that has become viral in media and social media shows how flattening the curve reduces the volume of the epidemic that is above the threshold of what the health system can handle at any moment.


Yet if the health system does become overwhelmed, the majority of the extra deaths may not be due to coronavirus but to other common diseases and conditions such as heart attacks, strokes, trauma, bleeding, and the like that are not adequately treated. If the level of the epidemic does overwhelm the health system and extreme measures have only modest effectiveness, then flattening the curve may make things worse: Instead of being overwhelmed during a short, acute phase, the health system will remain overwhelmed for a more protracted period. That’s another reason we need data about the exact level of the epidemic activity.

One of the bottom lines is that we don’t know how long social distancing measures and lockdowns can be maintained without major consequences to the economy, society, and mental health. Unpredictable evolutions may ensue, including financial crisis, unrest, civil strife, war, and a meltdown of the social fabric. At a minimum, we need unbiased prevalence and incidence data for the evolving infectious load to guide decision-making.

In the most pessimistic scenario, which I do not espouse, if the new coronavirus infects 60% of the global population and 1% of the infected people die, that will translate into more than 40 million deaths globally, matching the 1918 influenza pandemic.

The vast majority of this hecatomb would be people with limited life expectancies. That’s in contrast to 1918, when many young people died.

One can only hope that, much like in 1918, life will continue. Conversely, with lockdowns of months, if not years, life largely stops, short-term and long-term consequences are entirely unknown, and billions, not just millions, of lives may be eventually at stake.

If we decide to jump off the cliff, we need some data to inform us about the rationale of such an action and the chances of landing somewhere safe.


John P.A. Ioannidis is professor of medicine, of epidemiology and population health, of biomedical data science, and of statistics at Stanford University and co-director of Stanford’s Meta-Research Innovation Center.
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Re: Manufactured 'Contagion' - Coronavirus Edition

Postby Blue » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:36 am

Blue » Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:22 am wrote:
MacCruiskeen » Mon Mar 23, 2020 4:26 am wrote:
NO ONE HEALTHY AND UNDER RETIREMENT AGE IS AT ANY SERIOUS RISK OF DEATH, OR EVEN SERIOUS ILLNESS.


Let's say this was true. (It is not, but let's say it was.) Should we not care about them? Also, how many on this board (and this world) fit one of these criteria, of having one of the high-risk conditions, being 65 or older, or both? Also, does being healthy and under retirement age and thus having a low risk of illness mean that you cannot spread it?



WHAT THE HELL? I did not post this response. How can someone use my log in to do this? I did post two links to 2 deaths in New Orleans from covid 19, a woman aged 39 and a man, 44. Where did that post go? Who is doing this and why?
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Re: Manufactured 'Contagion' - Coronavirus Edition

Postby Harvey » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:41 am

Blue » Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:36 pm wrote:
Blue » Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:22 am wrote:
MacCruiskeen » Mon Mar 23, 2020 4:26 am wrote:
NO ONE HEALTHY AND UNDER RETIREMENT AGE IS AT ANY SERIOUS RISK OF DEATH, OR EVEN SERIOUS ILLNESS.


Let's say this was true. (It is not, but let's say it was.) Should we not care about them? Also, how many on this board (and this world) fit one of these criteria, of having one of the high-risk conditions, being 65 or older, or both? Also, does being healthy and under retirement age and thus having a low risk of illness mean that you cannot spread it?



WHAT THE HELL? I did not post this response. How can someone use my log in to do this? I did post two links to 2 deaths in New Orleans from covid 19, a woman aged 39 and a man, 44. Where did that post go? Who is doing this and why?



Interesting. Mods?
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Re: Manufactured 'Contagion' - Coronavirus Edition

Postby minime » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:43 am

Blue » Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:36 am wrote:
Blue » Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:22 am wrote:
MacCruiskeen » Mon Mar 23, 2020 4:26 am wrote:
NO ONE HEALTHY AND UNDER RETIREMENT AGE IS AT ANY SERIOUS RISK OF DEATH, OR EVEN SERIOUS ILLNESS.


Let's say this was true. (It is not, but let's say it was.) Should we not care about them? Also, how many on this board (and this world) fit one of these criteria, of having one of the high-risk conditions, being 65 or older, or both? Also, does being healthy and under retirement age and thus having a low risk of illness mean that you cannot spread it?



WHAT THE HELL? I did not post this response. How can someone use my log in to do this? I did post two links to 2 deaths in New Orleans from covid 19, a woman aged 39 and a man, 44. Where did that post go? Who is doing this and why?


I was here and saw the post; therefore my reply. Should have quoted it.
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Re: Manufactured 'Contagion' - Coronavirus Edition

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:58 am

NO YOU DID NOT! IT WAS MY MISTAKE!!! SORRY!!!

Blue » Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:22 am wrote:
MacCruiskeen » Mon Mar 23, 2020 4:26 am wrote:
NO ONE HEALTHY AND UNDER RETIREMENT AGE IS AT ANY SERIOUS RISK OF DEATH, OR EVEN SERIOUS ILLNESS.


Let's say this was true. (It is not, but let's say it was.) Should we not care about them? Also, how many on this board (and this world) fit one of these criteria, of having one of the high-risk conditions, being 65 or older, or both? Also, does being healthy and under retirement age and thus having a low risk of illness mean that you cannot spread it?


I posted this as "blue." Unintentionally! It was supposed to be my post.

Now that I have mod power, I have EDIT and QUOTE buttons on everyone's post. I hit EDIT rather than QUOTE and thought I was replying as myself, when in fact I was editing YOUR post, blue, by mistake.

This has happened before and I caught myself in time, but now I finally messed up and hit SUBMIT.

I have deleted that post and stuck in a placeholder, very sorry if you lose your post as a result, it was unintentional. As you say:

WHAT THE HELL? I did not post this response. How can someone use my log in to do this? I did post two links to 2 deaths in New Orleans from covid 19, a woman aged 39 and a man, 44. Where did that post go? Who is doing this and why?


Every mod has this power and I'm very sorry to be apparently the first ever to fuck up like this on RI. I will be very, very, very vigilant about this in the future.

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Re: Manufactured 'Contagion' - Coronavirus Edition

Postby Blue » Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:00 pm

Thanks for explaining Jack. Actually I agree with the post you made under my name but for a second I thought I must have had a stroke and posted without remembering it.

Odd that you can do that but anyway, here are the links to the 2 deaths in New Orleans. First article is a long one with good information about the fucked up problems right now in the US. It is unbelievable that anyone here would try to mislead people about who is dying. From the outset it has seemed obvious to me that everyone in the US is fair game with this virus for multiple reasons: horrible healthcare system, vast swaths of the population with chronic diseases, underfunded facilities and the general level of incompetence and ignorance among the population. Having said that there are cases of people dying in 30's to 50's in nearly every country. Not gonna do the work for him.

This 39-year-old New Orleans woman tested for coronavirus. She died before getting her results.
She tested for coronavirus, and her results were delayed. Five days later, she was dead in her kitchen.


On March 10, Natasha Ott, 39, felt the beginnings of a cold coming on.

She had a slight fever. CrescentCare, the medical clinic where she worked, had only a handful of tests for the new strain of coronavirus on hand. She initially passed on the chance to take one, after being told she was low-risk for the serious disease.

When her symptoms didn't shake, she did take the test on Monday. By Thursday, she felt "something in her lungs," she told longtime partner Josh Anderson. But she still felt well enough by then to join Anderson as the pair walked her dog.

On Friday, Anderson found Ott dead in her kitchen.

Her test results have still not come back. The Orleans Parish Coroner's Office has not released a cause of death; state health officials have not said whether they believe it was a case of coronavirus.


Anderson, 40, believes that's exactly what it was. What happened to his girlfriend, he said, should be a wake-up call for anyone who still believes COVID-19 isn't as deadly as experts have claimed.

Speaking in an interview Saturday, after his social media post recounting Ott's experience was shared hundreds of times, he said the dearth of tests shows how ill-equipped New Orleans is to handle a pandemic that has already claimed 16 lives and infected nearly 600 people across the state.


New Orleans bounce deejay Black N Mild, 44, dies after coronavirus infection
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Re: Manufactured 'Contagion' - Coronavirus Edition

Postby JackRiddler » Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:30 pm

Phew! Glad that got fixed.

Also lucky it happened to be something we agreed on anyway.

Giving an edit button on all posts is a standard moderation function in phpBB. It's a tribute to the care of all our past moderators that this may have been the first time someone clicked that by mistake and submitted an accidental edit of someone else's post. And so I will take care to make sure it's the last, at least from me (cos it gave me a scare too, I can tell ya) and I hope one more sorry (to everyone who was just alarmed by it) will suffice.

Now, if I may repeat what I was actually posting, without the distraction:

MacCruiskeen » Mon Mar 23, 2020 5:26 am wrote:NO ONE HEALTHY AND UNDER RETIREMENT AGE IS AT ANY SERIOUS RISK OF DEATH, OR EVEN SERIOUS ILLNESS.


MacC, let's say this was true. (It is not, but let's say it was.) Should we not care about them? Also, how many on this board (and this world) fit one of these criteria, of having one of the high-risk conditions, being 65 or older, or both? Also, does being healthy and under retirement age and thus having a low risk of illness mean that you cannot spread it?

.
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I am by virtue of its might divine,
The highest Wisdom and the first Love.

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